SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I started this thread with a question of advice or agenda? Because many male responses I have read seemed to offer no real advice, just a use and abuse her, the slut, in the future.

I think it evolved into many males explaining their pain in realizing the details of their partners betrayals. Sexual details which mattered enormously to them. And yes, the way they feel may not be to our liking or understanding

I came back to the thread to reiterate why I started it, but yet I also read every post. I can’t deny these men feel the way they do. I can empathize with being betrayed and believe that maybe men and women do process and dwell on different aspects of betrayal.

I never intended to trigger anyone. And many sexual relationships are unhealthy before and after affairs. I don’t believe anyone ever intended to normalize an unhealthy or abusive relationship.

My heart goes out to everyone here. And I am so sorry to have ever made anyone feel bad. That was never my intent.

[This message edited by Greeneyesbluezy at 10:01 PM, February 17th (Saturday)]

No one has said that. No one has intimated that

.

Though when women get more upset for their BH

having an EA then a PA. While most men get

more upset at their WW having a PA then an EA.

Sex is exclusive to marriage, anyone can give you jewelry and/or take you to expensive dinners. The reason that I use them as comparisons, those are things that women typically want from a marriage that are denied by men, but freely given to the AP.

A BH is mentally knocked down by their WW's affair.

They want their ego and self esteem restored.

Yes, So is a BW

Men and women are helped by different things; sexual things seem to help men more (or at least we assume they do; for me, they certainly do) where emotional things seem to help women more.

It doesn't change how many men feel about this, and I hesitate to say, but will, you should probably leave, because many men will never recover from the blow and your life will be filled with resentment.

I think that many things discussed in many threads actually overlap and are related to each other. This is one of those times. In my opinion, the issues of:

Sexual frequency

Sexual variation

Male vs. Female differences in recovery

Porn use

Society's ills

Gender roles/alpha/red pill male

Women as gatekeepers of sex

Men as "natural seed spreaders"

Divorce winners and losers

Rejection

Love languages

Revenge

Reconciliation expectations

These topics that come up are, imho, all related and are being referenced here in this thread.

It might not be said outright, but I certainly am not the only one getting that vibe

[This message edited by shiloe at 10:01 PM, February 17th (Saturday)]

My heart goes out to everyone here. And I am so sorry to have ever made anyone feel bad. That was never my intent.

You didn't make me feel bad. There is more than enough pain to go around here.

You have showed kindness, and a willingness to listen. I am sorry for whatever you struggle with.

It might not be said outright, but I certainly am not the only one getting that vibe

I can only speak for myself, but what I have tried to communicate is that there is a common divide along gendered lines, related to what part of the betrayal of an affair is the most difficult to overcome. I am also certain that there are more than a few exceptions out there (women that are more concerned with the sex than the emotional component).

I am not, and I don't think anyone here has said that the pain men feel from betrayal is worse than what women feel.

Oldtruck, I really feel you are missing the point of what I'm saying.

It's not about denying him and me sex because 'I'm mad'. (Which incidentally I'm super surprised to hear my current feelings characterised as by another BS, are you insisting on sexual favours because you are 'mad'?)

The way my husband treats me impacts my sexual desire for him. If I do not feel loved and valued by him I am not going to desire sex from him. No matter how good the sex was last time there is no chance it can be good in this state. It will not be enjoyable for me. How exactly is not having sex I will not enjoy cutting off my nose to spite my face?

ReliantRobin, I do not know your story or where

you are.

Based on the assumption you are not divorced,

not separated, in recovery, open to recovery

though undecided.

Then the marriage is best is best served to try

to do things that heal the marriage. Speaking

civil instead of getting in each others face

screaming all the time. Doing things to repair

the broken trust instead of refusing to be an

open book. Bonding on a brain chemistry level

through intimate contact. Saying F**k you or to

go get F**ked does not count as actual intimate

contact through F**king.

You only take things that I write out of context.

You ignored how scheduling sex and following

the schedule got many estranged couple to get

past their loss of desire.

Doing recovery work is like having to eat

spinach, not liking the taste but the vitamins

and minerals make you healthy.

Let us agree to disagree. Ciao.

... And not be a porn star in the bedroom?

Would she be worthy of reconciliation?

I think you are saying No.

So then I feel like none of that other stuff about us really matters at all; you are just saying it matters because it sounds better, more proper. Am I wrong?

I was married to her for 13 years of her not being a porn star (or even a b movie uncredited role) in the bedroom. Despite our issues I loved her, respected her, valued all of her contributions to our life and family... and I always thought we would live the rest of our lives together. If not for the A I would still say these things, I would still endure because I loved/cherished/valued her enough as a person to overlook this glaring deficiency... however much pain and sadness it caused me personally.

Everything changed when she gave what she was torturing me with to another man. So the answer is no. All of those things will not be enough if she doesn't change her ways in the bedroom (and in the car and in Amsterdam etc.). My view of her has changed. My view of the M has changed. She doesn't have to be a porn star, but she has to give me better than what she gave OM.

ETA, those other things are still important (and many would be deal-breakers too if they aren't present), but this is an absolute deal-breaker.

[This message edited by Lazarus at 12:01 PM, February 18th (Sunday)]

I don't have time to read through all 20 plus pages today on this subject but just wanted to say my response to the original question. I don't believe all waywards are whores or sluts. Male or female what they are is someone with a flaw that causes them to make disastrous decisions in their relationships.

All I wanted from my WW after my first Dday was her to admit what she did, to work on what it was in her that lead to her betrayals, and recommit to our marriage and stop the behavior that was killing me.

I didn't ask for special sexual favors, just that we were back to what our vows were supposed to mean. That we were committed to each other, and that sharing intimacy outside of the two of us was an unacceptable thing to do. I just wanted her to rebuild my trust through healthy actions, and proving she was doing what she said she was, or wasn't as the case might be.

She agreed, but her actions ended up the opposite of her words . When I withdrew towards the end of our marriage she swore up and down I had a girlfriend, I didnt btw. I was merely protecting myself from the pain I saw coming. She felt she had me so snowballed there's no way I could have known what she was doing again. But I did.

The blind trust was gone after the initial rodeo 4 years before. So I saw, and knew, and understood what was going on.

I don't believe all mens affairs are about sex, or all womens are about unfilled emotional needs. Seeing stories here, and what I've seen in person, people of both sexes have claimed one or the other as a way to excuse their actions.

Abusing your wayward IMHO is no way to level the playing field, for anyone.

It comes down to people of both sexes putting a selfish WANT of theirs in front of the healthy NEEDS and actions required to maintain a relationship.

End of the day you can never un-know the betrayals of those who were never supposed to cross those lines in your life.

The only thing I have ever advocated to people after and even before betrayals in a relationship is this. NEVER settle for being treated worse than you deserve to be in life and in your relationships.

My STBXWW believes that my refusing to allow her lies to stand and holding her accountable for her actions is abuse. Her lies, affairs and demonizing of me to all to justify her actions was not. But my holding her to the truth, exposing her lies and betrayals, is.

In my real world experiences I have only known one couple who were able to rebuild their life and relationship successfully after infidelity. And it took a ton of work and acknowledging of faults and flaws to do. Others...well I've seen behind the veil and know there is still a lot of messed up things going on, and unhealed pain.

I'm not saying it cant be moved on from. But it takes a lot of hard work. And from what I've seen, a lot of people are not willing to change to make that happen. And honestly at the end of the day some people cant try again once betrayed, and that's ok too. Better to acknowledge its done and over than to torture all involved trying to save something that is now dead and buried to you.

^ Well said, Nycountrystrong. I'm sorry for all you endured with your STBXWW. You are a much stronger person than she is.

Rideitout, you had asked your question about my perspective as a woman, and I had answered. Was it able to help at all? Do you still have questions?

@Silverhopes

I read the story you posted, and, frankly, I'm not sure what to make of it. The "killing off your libido" thing is absolutely something I know I've considered and men I know talk about all the time. "I wish I could just turn it off" is a relatively common reprieve because these men know that what they are doing is going to eventually lead to their downfall; if they could "kill" the libido, so would go the urge to cheat.

The part about anal sex, I'm not surprised that your H reacted that way. While there are posters here who disagree, for many men, it's the "ultimate" in acceptance. We know it's not exactly always pleasurable for women (just like I suspect women know that going down on them isn't pleasurable for men), but many men, myself included, see it as a gift that's reserved only for those that women most love. And, I can tell you from experience, going down on a woman is that for me; I never went down on a lot of women I slept with because, frankly, I didn't care for them enough to do it. I draw that direct line analogy for women, and, while it's probably not 100% true, it does feel true to me, and I suspect other men.

I'm curious, from your story, why did you stop? I don't know your whole backstory, but basically, it sounded like you started amping things up, your husband responded positively, then you pulled it back down. Just curious why/what happened.

just like I suspect women know that going down on them isn't pleasurable for men

That's what I was afraid of. Like I said, I had limited experience before I met Mr. Silver, but I definitely learned that. Each of my partners had expected me to give them head, and I had - only a single one of them wanted to do the same with me, and he initiated it, but the others weren't interested in that, and so they didn't. Hence why I hesitate to enjoy what Mr. Silver is doing - if he secretly hates it, then I wouldn't want him to continue. His comfort is more important to me than my pleasure.

I enjoy making him happy. To be honest, giving head is really triggery for me. There was an ex who was a pretty upsetting person: he would make me go down on him, and when I couldn't breathe, I would try to back off to catch my breath. He wouldn't let me. He would sit on my head and force me to continue. It became a regular occurrence that I would choke and throw up, and he would force me to swallow my own vomit. I thought it was what I was supposed to do. I also thought I had to earn sexual pleasure, had to earn being able to ask for it, but that was a lie.

I'm curious, from your story, why did you stop?

I never did stop. I have never once said no to Mr. Silver. I just don't focus on my pleasure anymore. I'm too insecure. I used to chase my orgasms - though for a while, him laughing at me when I would start to dampened that. Now... it's my own insecurities that do that. I want him to enjoy himself. That's the point of us doing it. I'd rather he enjoyed himself than risk ruining the mood because I'm selfish. He has ED struggles as well, so helping him relax, stop stressing, and enjoy himself is so important. And - the idea of humiliating myself again is a huge turn-off. I'd rather not have a libido than ever feel that way again. At its worst, I wondered if there was something wrong with me - if I was becoming like the people who abused me (though that could have been in part because of my OCD - I've been diagnosed with that and major depression). Never a good place to be.

I would say, hey, maybe if I were single, there would be someone out there who I could relax with. I doubt that. Not from the experiences I've had. Mr. Silver seems to care. I'm scared he'll stop caring, but he hasn't stopped yet... Maybe I'd like to take a chance and open up to him again. I'd like to build something special with him. Just gotta be careful.

ETA: Remembered something... fixed it.

[This message edited by silverhopes at 7:48 PM, February 18th (Sunday)]

Just realized, what I wrote probably doesn't make a lot of sense. My story's confusing. tl;dr I'm high drive but have several hang-ups, and I really don't want to ruin it for Mr. Silver while I work those out.

Silver, walk away from any man that forces you

to do things as those losers did. They do not

deserve a woman as nice as you.

(just like I suspect women know that going down on them isn't pleasurable for men),

Oh, Rideitout, I guess you will have to tell my FWH that it isn't pleasurable for him to go down on me. He will be surprised to learn that he doesn't find it pleasurable. Frankly, I can't keep him out of there.

Yeah, I actually love it as well.

ETA, WW does not like it (although may need to revisit that with her new found honesty on these matters too). I used to joke that I ended up with the only woman in the world who would complain that I like to go down on her too much, last too long and am too thick.

[This message edited by Lazarus at 9:48 PM, February 18th (Sunday)]

Going down on a woman is a huge turn on for me. Not much else is close.

Wait, so there are guys who genuinely enjoy it? That's really good news. Maybe Mr. Silver isn't lying, then. Some of us are taught to see our parts down there as another armpit, so asking our partners to go down is scary in itself. It's really good to know that there are folks who are into it.

xhz700, oldtruck, thank you both for your kind words. I'm definitely trying to fix my issues so I won't accept poor treatment again - from Mr. Silver or, should I ever be on my own again, from anyone else. My biggest enemy tends to be myself.

Going down on a woman is a huge turn on for me. Not much else is close.

It is for me as well. I actually said a dozen pages back or so, I couldn't have a relationship with a woman if that was off limits.

However, is it "pleasurable"? Physically, not even a little bit. Emotionally, very much so. Similar to the acts that many of the men here talk about, BJ/swallowing/anal; it's your partner's pleasure that brings you the pleasure, not the actual act itself.

So, do I enjoy it? Yes, very much so. Is it pleasurable? No, it's not, if we look at the physical aspects. If we look at the emotional/what it means for me to do that with someone (it's the thing I denied most women I dated because I didn't feel close enough/attracted them enough to do it), yes, it's very pleasurable.

But the parallels here are the ones that I draw in my mind relating to things like BJ's and anal sex. I realize that having a penis in your mouth doesn't feel good. I realize that semen doesn't taste fantastic. I know that anal sex can be painful. But a woman WANTING to do those things with you says mountains to me about how they feel about you. How attracted they are to you. And where you are in your relationship.

Should they? Experience tells me yes, they should. Just like, for this guy, me refusing to provide oral sex to you should tell you a lot about where you stand in our relationship. Perhaps this is why the "acts" thing is such a big deal to me, and other guys?

I never went down on a lot of women I slept with because, frankly, I didn't care for them enough to do it.

In those same times, did you expect them to go down on you? Did they?

Also, you say that going down on a woman doesn't cause physical pleasure for you. Does it cause you any physical pain?

[This message edited by silverhopes at 7:40 AM, February 19th (Monday)]

In those same times, did you expect them to go down on you? Did they?

Expect no, want them to, yes. Most of the time, yes, they did.

One more thing I'll add, the first times I did that with a woman, I won't say "I hated it", but it was pretty darn unpleasant for me. I did not like it, let's put it there. But I saw how much they liked it, and, because of that, kept doing it. And then, at some point (I can't put my finger on when), I got used to it and started to focus on the emotional component rather than the physical. Once that happened, I found myself where I am today, where I couldn't have a relationship where that wasn't a part of our sexuality. It took time though to get there, time to get used to it and time to learn how it brought me closer to them, rather than just that it physically wasn't pleasurable..

Edit to answer the 2nd part of your question..

Pain? That's probably too strong a word. I hate to say this because of what women are going to think, both of themselves and of me, but I did gag. It took awhile to get over that reflex, it had nothing to do with what I was tasting and everything to do with what was in my mind. It took time to get over that, and to train myself to associate the experience with positive things.

I have, however, since then, done sexual acts that have caused me pain. I do them with my wife today. Are they "I'm going to die" pain? No, not at all, but they do hurt; I do them because I know she enjoys it, and I enjoy it because of that. I often ask to do those things because I know she enjoys them, even though I'll be limping for an hour afterwards. :)

[This message edited by Rideitout at 7:48 AM, February 19th (Monday)]