SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Great question. I'll answer for myself, and won't quote the whole thing:

And not be a porn star in the bedroom?

Would she be worthy of reconciliation?

I have a very simple answer. If it was an EA, yes, she would be worth of R with the list that you presented. If it was a PA, no, it would not be enough, and I would D.

I think it comes down to this. A woman embarking on a PA is, in effect, signing up to be someone else's porn star. We all see it here every day, it's no "holes" barred (that was a joke, but it is often the case). If they realize it or not, they are, in many cases, deciding to become an unpaid porn star for another man. And, given that's a pretty universal male desire, the question immediately becomes, why him and not me?

Now, I realize that women don't see it this way. And I realize that women don't realize that is what they are "signing up for" when they enter into an A. But the facts are what they are, most A's come down to a whole lot of bullshit and sweet nothings that go nowhere and mean nothing and "porn star sex". I posted awhile ago because, knowing this, I really do wonder why most women enter into an A if they aren't after sex; sex, you'll get that in spades, but the things that women say they value, honesty, integrity, someone to care for them, emotional closeness. You're very unlikely to get anything like that from a PA.

Anyway, bit off topic there. My answer, that list would be absolutely what I'd expect from an EA, but, if you've signed up to be some other man's porn star, I expect that you'll be my fantasy as well. You obviously can and wanted to do it with him, and there's no "reason" that will change that for me. I know this is going to seem like crazy talk to many, but, in my eyes, he got the "best" of my W. Yes, she was a lying, untrustworthy and terribly broken woman at the time. But he still got the best sex she could offer, and that, even given the circumstances, is something that I think a lot of BS's feel.

Old truck,

Many betrayed wives here, too, eat the shit sandwich.

Obviously, many differ in their expectations of what is required in reconciliation.

OIN,

I don’t think the men are saying that.

Before betrayal, well those are the things we all expected when we make those vows. (Well other than counseling)

After betrayal, men are saying, when they find their wives have engaged in sexual behaviors with AP, denied to them during the marriage, they want that as a part of their reconciliation agreement.

A WW may agree or not. But, we have always supported betrayed wives in what they need for reconciliation.

I’m not saying I always agree. I’m saying there are enough men telling me here that THIS is what they feel.

How do we argue with that?

[This message edited by Greeneyesbluezy at 7:30 PM, February 17th (Saturday)]

Perhaps rideitout said it best a few posts ago:

Even he he could go back to before the affair, he would. And, accept whatever sex his wife granted him. (That’s a whole nother thread.).

But, he can’t. He has this infidelity, and these details of her affair sex. I cannot change his mind on how he, and apparently many other men, view their wives affair sex compared to their married sex.

I was pointing out how BH's view sex.

That being a wife is not about just sex.

That without sex there is no procreation,

no motivation to ask a woman to be his wife,

no chemical bonding brain chemistry to bond

them together.

"owningitnow: And not be a porn star in the bedroom?

Would she be worthy of reconciliation?

I think you are saying No. "

Was sex just fair before the affair?

Did the OM get porn star sex?

If answers are yes and yes should the WW try

to give her BH porn star sex?

Should the WW not be helping her BH improve

his sex skills after the affair?

Should the BH be happy that the WW ended the

affair, and the family is kept intact, and

he still gets fair sex once a week?

"Many betrayed wives here, too, eat the shit sandwich.

Obviously, many differ in their expectations of what is required in reconciliation"

Yes all BS eat from the same loaf.

Though when women get more upset for their BH

having an EA then a PA. While most men get

more upset at their WW having a PA then an EA.

That WW will give OM sex to have their other

needs kept being met by the OM. While WH will

keep meeting OW emotional needs to keep

getting sex.

If follows that in general BW's are not going

to care about getting what the OW got in bed.

While BH's will care that the OM got more.

Because BH's place more value on sex then the

BW's.

[This message edited by oldtruck at 7:59 PM, February 17th (Saturday)]

I do get it, and I am in no way trying to get you to change your views--none of you My god, each of you have your own M and relationship, and it should be intimately repaired betweeen the two of you. I am only asking for me, for my desire to see women as valuable to men in non-sexual ways. Even WW.

It seems a shame, as many a BH has posted in many different threads, to throw away a potential reconciliation with a WW who seems to be doing many things right but is not "all in" in the bedroom. I am kind of one of those people, but since we are madhatters, my H leaves it alone. I do believe he probably feels like you though.

I did none of the somewhat extreme sexual maneuvers mentioned in this thread with my AP, so I can't entirely speak to the issue. But what does get to me is that I should have to now, and I don't want to. I am a great wife and partner in many other ways. I have some sexual hang ups because of the affairs, hang ups related to being a sexual toy with my H and a disgusting whore with my AP. I have been one of those people that was gifted with too much male attention all my life, which sounds fabulous until you realize that I have never known known who to trust. I trusted my H but he ended up seeing himself as the owner of me rather than someone who owed me loyal behavior, and during my stupid revenge A when I was desperate for someone to trust, I realized I was being used as a mid-life crisis escape. Always used.

Now you tell me I have to be a porn star to keep my H?

I am tired of that being my only asset where men are concerned. I am positive that other women--and ww--feel the same way.

I am just sharing, not trying to convince anyone of anything. Thanks.

Something I've said before and will say again... I'm not sure whether it was the intention of the thread or not, but I find it interesting that the discussion centers so much on male sexuality, while female sexuality isn't touched on at all. I'm hearing the words "men" and "sex" so much that I'm beginning to wonder - are we women supposed to have a sex drive at all? And if so, then why does no one ever talk about it? It's kinda invalidating, to be honest.

Silverhopes:

I don't know your backstory, but are you dealing with the same situation from the female perspective? If so, I know I'd love to get your take on it; I think the reason this thread has centered on men is because this issue has, to my knowledge, been almost exclusive to BH's.

Speaking in general (which will probably get me yelled at again), men are more adventurous in bed and the ones pushing for new/more things. I've never denied any woman I've slept with anything; if she wanted it, I'd do it, even if it wasn't something I was really into. And I think this is generally the case for men; it's just different between men and women on this issue. But, if you, for example, wanted your H to try something in bed and he didn't; then did it with the AP and refused to do it with you after, I'd be really interested in knowing what happened, how you felt and how you dealt with it.

This seems to be an element in many (perhaps most?) female A's, which makes it very relevant for everyone, male or female, BS or WS, because the question still lingers.. Why?

I did none of the somewhat extreme sexual maneuvers mentioned in this thread with my AP, so I can't entirely speak to the issue. But what does get to me is that I should have to now, and I don't want to.

I'm not sure how I feel about this to be honest. I certainly don't think "have to" is how I'd look at it. And, your H also cheated? If so, I'd say "hope you got anal from the AP, cause you ain't getting it from me". :)

The clearest example of this is when the WS does something with the AP and then refuses the BS, clearly not your situation. But, yes, I think cheating on your spouse, even if you didn't do anything else, does mean you need to "ramp it up", sexually, emotionally, financially, etc.

If I knew my wife wanted to Paris, something I'm not really into, cheated, DIDN'T take the AP to Paris.. Well, yeah, I'd kind of feel like I should get over my hate for the French (kidding) and take my wife to Paris.

And that's kind of your situation, except your husband cheating does change the equation..

Owningitnow,

As a recipient of lots of male attention. Does

not mean that you had nothing else to offer or

be valued by men.

There were many women that in there prime young

dating days when you were in yours and they never

got a tenth of the male attention that you had, and

they had everything that you had but your looks.

When a man marries a woman he wants the most

attractive woman he can get. She may only be

rated a "5", but she is his "5" and he is

proud to call her his wife. To have another

man have sex with his wife is very painful.

You did not treat your OM different sexually

from your BH. There is no evening of the score

needed.

So there is no need for you to have to give

your BH porn star sex.

Though if sex was just ok, or just average

before the affair, why not try to improve the

sex that you and your husband have after the

affair?

The goal of recovery is to make the marriage

better then it was before the affair. Every

area of the marriage should be improved.

But, if you, for example, wanted your H to try something in bed and he didn't; then did it with the AP and refused to do it with you after, 

Rideitout, can I ask, what if a WW did not do "those things" (whatever you had wanted) with the AP, just turned you down on these requests? Would you still think she owes you? Because you are giving the gift of R? Are we really saying that she should do what you ask to heal the R?

In my case, it's a bit complicated. My H has never come clean about his infidelity. I've seen things that led me to believe he's been unfaithful, our mutual friends have seen things too. When he's angry, he'll mutter things under his breath about cheating on me; when he's happy, he denies it.

What I can say for certain is that when we met, I was far less experienced than he was. I was excited to do all those new things with him. He would frequently laugh at me when I would ask. Then he'd go into stories about the times he'd done those things with past lovers. So, not your situation. But he did explicitly compare me to them. The comparisons weren't favorable. Finally he outright told me that he had done everything new and exciting long before he met me, and there was nothing new or exciting we could do together.

Since we are both survivors of sexual abuse, I tried to let it go. I worried that trying to be pushy with him would make him relive the abuse. He already thought there was a lot wrong with me because my drive is so high. What kept hurting were the unfavorable comparisons, and him laughing at me when I asked for things I wanted. Example: it was an expectation from the very start that I would go down on him. When I asked him to do the same with me, because - hello! - it feels amazing, he would laugh. That's just one example.

To make a long and convoluted story short, I decided to try to kill off my libido. A combination of his ridicule and my experiences being assaulted and abused made me deeply ashamed of my sexuality. So I tried to kill it off. Sometime during the 6 months of madness in 2016, his libido shot up. So did his abusiveness, and he claims his testosterone must have been high. I don't like linking those two things together. Ever since then, he's been more open sexually. Though he judged certain aspects of my body for quite a while. I had suggested anal a long time ago, hearing that it was a thing guys liked. I also thought it would solve his complaints. It has. He finally tried it again a few months back, and it has become a staple for us. Yeah, it kinda hurts, but it turns him on. For me, there's no greater aphrodisiac than knowing he's having a great time. And he decided to try going down on me. Now, he says he loves it. I get so happy, and I make sure to tell him and thank him. But I'm scared. What if he's only doing it because he wants something from me? He says he enjoys it... I want to believe he does.

Just to be cautious, though, I'm back to trying to kill off my libido. Something this good could never last. He'll start ridiculing me again. Or I'll read more threads like this one and feel progressively more ashamed of being a woman, or like I don't belong with my sexuality. I don't want to be a sloppy slut. I just want him to be happy. I've been told for so long that my sexuality doesn't matter - heck, maybe it doesn't! Plus, by being sexual, I feel like I'm just leaving myself open to get assaulted again - and worse, blamed for it afterwards. But those are my issues. They sound completely different from the BHs here. I'm sorry I can't be more helpful to you guys.

Oldtruck, I am not denying your logic or the reality that everyone wants to be in a healthy, loving R. And it hurts me to imagine rejection in marriage. (Part of my trigger right now.) I suppose I am offering the idea that there are many ways sex can hurt a marriage:

Too much

Too little

Too vanilla

Not in the way you like it

Too impersonal

Denied

Forced

Over valued

Under valued

Given to someone else

Different with someone else

Compared to someone else

Not important

All that's important

My H and I both felt hurt. While some BH will say they were rejected, I feel for some WW, the affair is symptomatic of being the only thing for which they have been accepted. Both are horrible. And possibly incompatible.

That's all.

Not trying to change minds.

Going to put some distance between me and my trigger now. Calm the churning ocean waters in my gut.

Gn!

She may only be

rated a "5", but she is his "5" and he is

proud to call her his wife. To have another

man have sex with his wife is very painful.

So, this rating system for your wife, does ... never mind.

Do you not think it is just as painful to BW when husbands have sex with OW?

Or is it "different" to us, less so, because we are just concerned with what he "felt" for OW? Are you saying it is less painful for the BW? I am getting this vibe after reading this long thread and some others.

[This message edited by shiloe at 9:02 PM, February 17th (Saturday)]

A WW may agree or not. But, we have always supported betrayed wives in what they need for reconciliation.

Greeneyesbluezy, I am going to frame that. Thank you for coming back to the thread and really understanding what we are saying.

I am kind of one of those people, but since we are madhatters, my H leaves it alone.

OwningItNow, I thought that this might be the case. This seemed to be a very personal issue for you. I am sorry that you find yourself in a place that you feel used by others. Take it from an internet stranger, you have more value than just your sex appeal.

I trusted my H but he ended up seeing himself as the owner of me rather than someone who owed me loyal behavior, and during my stupid revenge A when I was desperate for someone to trust, I realized I was being used as a mid-life crisis escape. Always used.

I'll be as gentle as I can about this, because there is clearly a lot of pain and sadness in your words. I hear that you felt used, and that probably magnified the way you felt about the attention that you received earlier in your life. Where is your part in this? What is your responsibility?

I hope you don't take this as an attack, because I don't intend it as one. For reference, I will tell you a little about myself. My XWW has a personality disorder, and cheated on me several times in our relationship. I did everything wrong in the aftermath of the first affair I discovered (it was actually #3). Rugsweeping avoidance, I was a mess.

Now, her behavior is on her. There isn't anything that I could have done to stop her actions, that is not what I am suggesting. My journey is figuring out what was wrong with me that I couldn't make better decisions for myself. My issues, self-esteem issues, foo (my mom was crazy too), my own sexual abuse, unstable upbringing, the list goes on. All of these things contribute to who I am, and the decisions that I made, the decisions that I have always made. I have always struggled to stand up for myself, and during the aftermath of the affair(s). My growth is in understanding the mistakes that I made, the pain it caused me, the reasons I did what I did, and learning to do better. I was crippled by the idea of failing in my marriage. I didn't think I could do any better, I didn't think anyone would want me.

For you, sure, you were used in your affair, but you used your AP too. What led you there, what coping skills were you missing, what could you have done differently?

You can't control your WH, but you can grow yourself. Growth is hard, but it's the hard stuff that leads us to the most beautiful places.

silverhopes, do not kill off you sex drive.

Enjoy the sex you have. You cannot control your

husband though a waste of time to wait for him

to revert. It may never happened.

Also a wife can never be slut. A wife can be

adventurous, explorer, willing to try new things,

inventive with her husband.

@silverhopes, please don't stay in a situation like that. You deserve better.

If you can't fix it, and find some happiness, please find it elsewhere.

Your story is profoundly sad.

Or is it "different" to us, less so, because we are just concerned with what he "felt" for OW? Are you saying it is less painful for the BW?

No one has said that. No one has intimated that.

shiloe, never said it is not painful for a BW

or said they had less pain.

"5", anal sex, are examples to make a reference

point, an example, to help illustrate a point.

I do not assign numbers to women in real life.

I did not say BW just care about what her WH felt

about his OW.