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Does the word "forced" keep getting brought up to maintain some sort of moral high ground or claims to victimhood?

We're talking about two people who are choosing to try to R. It's optional.

Did the BS inattentiveness or laziness force the W to cheat rather than divorce?

Replacing - anal sex, threesomes, BJ's with transparency and the counter arguments with a right to privacy and this debate would have near 100% agreement.

If the wayward spouse did it for their affair partner consensually they owe it to their spouse—if their spouse wants it—as a condition precedent of reconciliation . I am amazed that there is any room for disagreement whatsoever.

If the wayward spouse did it for their affair partner consensually they owe it to their spouse—if their spouse wants it—as a condition precedent of reconciliation . I am amazed that there is any room for disagreement whatsoever.

Well, that's the question really, boiled down to the bare bones. Why would a BS want something that's not authentic?

My WH pretended to like a lot of different things in order to keep the ego kibbles and sex coming during his affairs. I don't want pretense from him. I don't need a trained seal. I need an honest, authentic partner; and if I can't have that with him, I don't want him.

What if you wanted him to give up porn as a condition of r?

I’m going to comment, after reading 11 pages of this thread.

My WH and his AP did things together that we have not. Nor do I have any desire to, as I would find it degrading to re-enact their sordid encounters (and I’m not talking about specific acts, just where and how)

If there was a sexual act that they practised, that was subsequently withheld from me, even if I desired it, R would be off the table. And if he boo-hoo’d about being forced or coerced to perform a sexual act “against his will”, after freely giving to someone else? No problem. But I’m out of here.

Some may think this is a “Male” point of view. I don’t see why. We, as betrayed spouses, have suffered much damage, a large part of it to our sexual identity, sexual confidence and self-esteem. Recovering from this is hard enough without being told that some things will be kept in a special place for the AP. No thanks.

[This message edited by FightingBack at 8:13 PM, February 15th (Thursday)]

And if he boo-hoo’d about being forced or coerced to perform a sexual act “against his will”, after freely giving to someone else? No problem. But I’m out of here.

Thank you for posting that, took a lot of courage given the sharp gender divide that seems to exist on this issue. That is, for the record, exactly how I feel. Of course you have a choice, but that choice doesn't include boo-hooing about how you're being forced to do things with me that you did with the AP.

And, honestly, if it really is the case that you had that level of desire/excitement/etc for the AP and not for me, tell me so I can move on.

Why would a BS want something that's not authentic?

We don't. That's really what I'm saying above. You "authentically" wanted to have anal sex with him (because you had no reason to do it otherwise) and not with me. Got it. But I'm done; because it points to a much bigger problem in the relationship than a little butt sex (trying for some levity in a subject that has caused me, and many others, so much pain). The problem is far deeper than anal sex, and it may, in fact, be that you are broken as a person, but, at that point, I really don't care. You were "less broken" with the AP, or, you're broken because of me. Either way, I'll start packing.

But the talk track that this is OK, and that BS's should "take one on the chin" because their WS is broken? No, I'm sorry, even if it's true it really doesn't matter, it'll never be right for most, the advice shouldn't be "tell him you were broken and try to work around it" it should be "divorce and move on".

Fighting back-

Thank you for answering candidly, logically, and objectively. Throwing terms like force, rapey, coercion, don’t really address the issue, they just muddle the core and detract from the valid point here. Man or woman, taking second place treatment from a WS, whether emotional or sexual, is unacceptable. It doesn’t matter if we like to use pseudoscientific terms, ego kibbles, fog, broken, to describe the mindset, it still happened. And especially if the betrayed wanted and would have loved the things AP got prior to the affair, after devoting loyalty and love, being denied them already was, and would continue to be a massive slap to the face. If you can’t fogure out how to WANT to love your BS enough to give them the best you have, let em go give their love and security to a person worthy of it who does want to.

[This message edited by nicenomore at 8:35 PM, February 15th (Thursday)]

What if you wanted him to give up porn as a condition of r?

If porn leads to a wayward mindset, then yes.. the porn needs to go. My WH no longer looks at porn. It was something that normalized his wayward thought pattern. Interestingly enough, I never had to set that boundary. He set it for himself.

Look at it this way... if a WS is doing things they normally wouldn't do in a sick bid for attention... the operative word is "sick".

It’s evident that this will continue to Ben a hotly debated topic here. All I can say is I feel bad for the WS and BS who can’t find common ground and understanding on this issue.

Reasons aside, no BS needs to R with second class treatment, especially when it’s so brutally evident they got second class treatment after they watched a random AP get first class. If you have kids, treat one better than the other, and see who adores you and who resents you. Easy enough to see that example I am guessing, now apply it to the BS. Nobody wants to play second fiddle, and no one deserves to.

Tell your BS that you can’t do things they would have loved because someone else who didn’t invest in you at all got em easily and now you’re broken. See how long they stay or even try to attempt R... just saying.

Because this thread has me all fired up, I'll say something that it almost certainly going to get me, if nothing else, a severe verbal lashing from some of the posters here.

This mentality, this disconnect between the sexes we see here, it's almost a certainty to me that this has something to do with the R statistics for men vs women.

Let me explain a bit. Men are taught that if you cheat on a woman, you better treat her like a goddess to get her back. Buy her things, do the dishes, sign a post-nup (even if it will break you financially), take her to dinner (even if you don't enjoy it), write her poetry (even if you think it's silly), worship the ground she walks on (even if she's being a royal b**ch). Basically, anything you can do to help her heal and try to get back into her good graces. And men talk about these things to each other, if a guy I know gets caught cheating, it's always a discussion of what things can he do to try to "make it up" to his wife. How can he help her get better and how can he keep his marriage; whatever it takes to patch things up.

It seems that that talk track for women is not the same. First off, outside of this board, there's a large sentiment of the population that believes that a woman cheating is a man's fault "what did he do to push you to it". I'm happy to say, I don't see that here very often at all, but society does look at it this way, which slants things in a negative way for R to begin with.

But then, add in this.. That the message we, and I'm suspect society gives to women about the "right way" to help a man heal don't involve sexual things? Don't involve doing everything you did with the AP and more? I'll speak for myself, but, this is EXACTLY the wrong message, it's sabotaging a chance at R for a man like me, and I don't think that I'm that different than other men, so I think my experience can be applied broadly. The message should be "shower him in sex", "show him he's number 1 sexually", "make what you did with the AP look like kids holding hands". Those are the things that would and have helped me, not explaining to me why you were broken during the A and trying to make me understand how sex with the AP was about ego kibbles and not orgasms. Even if it's true, I'll never believe it, and I think, from this thread, it's clear that many other men won't either.

Perhaps WW's need to ask themselves before embarking on R, are they willing to do it? Is anal sex (or whatever) off the table for your H but was the main dish for the AP, and you have no intention of changing that? If so, I honestly feel like we should suggest those WW's just move on rather than validate their choices. It's kind of like a WH coming here and saying he wants to R, but isn't willing to stop seeing hookers. Well, you probably shouldn't even try if that's the case, because even if your W eventually accepts it, you'll break her spirit in the process and spend the rest of your life in an M filled with anger and resentment.

Yes, your body, your choice. But if your choice is "I will not do with my H what I did with my AP" perhaps that should imply that you've made your choice (to D, rather than R)?

...no BS needs to R with second class treatment, especially when it’s so brutally evident they got second class treatment after they watched a random AP get first class.

See, this is where perspective comes into play. I say, the APs got "second class treatment". They got the cheesy, love-bombing, say-or-do anything for more kibbles FAKE. I don't like that guy. He's a lying asshole. I like the real man, the one I married, with all his actual likes and dislikes, all his weird little idiosyncrasies, intact.

Valid point chamomile. So from the perspective of s betrayed male, the sexual treatment is what I am referring to.

See, this is where perspective comes into play. I say, the APs got "second class treatment". They got the cheesy, love-bombing, say-or-do anything for more kibbles FAKE. I don't like that guy. He's a lying asshole. I like the real man, the one I married, with all his actual likes and dislikes, all his weird little idiosyncrasies, intact

Yes, but this is where the analogy falls apart. I completely agree with you, many male (and some female, I'm sure) AP's fall into the "fake as hell" category. Basically, say anything to get sex; and yes, it was certainly fake, and certainly not the "real" man you know as your husband. He was doing what men do in A's, lying his a** off to get laid.

But, to go back to the analogy, the sex was real. That's the whole problem. Sure, most of the words/emotions/etc, all complete unicorns. And I don't want that either, thank you very much, I like the real woman that I married. But the sex, there's no faking a man's penis in your butt, or a man having an orgasm in your mouth. That's real, it happened, and it wasn't all a bunch of silly stories made up to impress the other person.

That's one the big problems for me, I know what the AP said to my W was a bunch of BS. What she said back to him, probably a lot of that was too. But there's on interpretation necessary on the sex part; that's what is real, really happened, and while it may have been to impress one another, doesn't the BS deserve so much more "impressing" than the POS AP?

All I know is this... when the #metoo movement started, I wasn't really sure what to think. I think now that it's taken shape, in some ways it has gotten out of hand, but without a doubt the fact that there is such an enormous preponderance of women saying that there is a problem, that means that THERE IS A PROBLEM. My feelings on their experiences do not apply. Despite my experience, I am willing to admit that there is something happening that I don't see, and can't understand.

The number of women in this thread telling men here that their feelings are wrong, their needs are invalid, and they are wrong for feeling what they are feeling is just ridiculous. Men feel this way because they do. It's right because it is. You don't understand the way we feel because you don't feel the same. Is it so hard to accept what we are all saying as our truth despite your discomfort with it?

I don't want forced. I don't want inauthentic. Engaging in anything sexual with me without desire, enthusiasm or intimacy would be met with exactly the same result as not engaging in sex at all. Divorce.

Why do we recommend that a wayward go above and beyond in every way except this one?

Xhz the same thing could be said for the men. You’re telling us this is the way it is.

Vows don't mean too much to me if the other person doesn't keep theirs. Just a bunch of empty words and promises. I'm not hanging my hat on something as flimsy as that.

The legal term for the ideas to which you are referring is "repudiation". If one person commits a fundamental breach of a contract, the innocent party is entitled to accept that as a repudiation. Accepting the repudiation puts the contract to an end, and allows the innocent party (only) to sue for damages.

Xhz the same thing could be said for the men. You’re telling us this is the way it is.

No, I am telling you the way it is for me, and without exclusion in this thread, every man has agreed with me.

So, CT, if the “fake” grandstanding man took 5k in family assets to take his affair partner to Tahiti, but he refused to take you because he didn’t want to spend the money, you’d be okay with that because you got the “real” him?

"When a WS gets healthy they learn about boundaries. They learn that they need to have boundaries. And, part of boundaries is learning that you don't have to do things to please others. Many WS's are people pleasers and conflict avoidant. They learn these boundaries mean they don't have to do things sexually that they aren't fully into, they don't have to do things sexually that they really don't enjoy to be loved or to keep someone interested in them and to stay with them."

This^^

so the BH is then asking the WW to not have boundaries. Isn't that what recovering is about, the WW shoring up the boundaries?

So a WW should have the same boundaries with her husband as she should with all other men.

I think I have it now.

Of course you have a choice, but that choice doesn't include boo-hooing about how you're being forced to do things with me that you did with the AP.

OK, but be careful.

Your definition of boo-hooing is just your interpretation of being called second fiddle. How far are you going to take this, -to the point of degrading your WS? Punishing your WS?

If my wife vacuumed the AP's house while naked, I need to recognize whether or not my wife perceives this act, right now, as degrading. If she does, knowing this stops me from wanting her to reperform this act for me as a means of confirming I am still first fiddle. It turns my attention on knowing this act only further degrades her self esteem which doesn't help the cause.