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Some of you women believe that “my body my choice” is more important than fairness in the scenario at issue. I don’t agree. Most men don’t agree.

There is no fairness in any aspect of infidelity. Because of its nature, there can't be any fairness in infidelity.

And by the way, having been groped once in a packed elevator (a young woman stood in front of me, put her hands behind her back, pressed herself into me, etc.), I have some understanding of the importance of 'my body, my choice.'

I know being betrayed is humiliating. The BS needs to process that out of his body to heal. But humiliating one's W does nothing to heal the BS. In fact, it brings more pain down on the relationship - 2 wrongs never make a right.

I know about feeling emasculated. I once wrote about that in a way that got me a PM from the mods, so I'll say it differently this time:

Male BSes tend to feel as if we've been emasculated - but we haven't been. We still have our equipment. It may feel dead for a while, out of fear, anger, shame, or disgust, but the equipment has some independence and comes back for most of us - and we get to decide which consenting adult we'll use it with.

If you think you've been emasculated, you've almost definitely stuck yourself in a Drama Triangle in the Victim role. If you get yourself out of the role - and you can - you will have your old mojo back. But maybe not with your W.

How does trying to replicate what the ap did help the BS heal - how can a BS heal with the ap in his head?

R is a process of building a new M. How does forcing a reluctant W into a sex act she doesn't really want help R? How can coercion help build a new M that serves both of you?

[This message edited by sisoon at 9:53 AM, February 16th (Friday)]

R is a process of building a new M. How does forcing a reluctant W into a sex act she doesn't really want help R? How can coercion help build a new M that serves both of you?

I think that is the point precisely. If she doesn't want to do it with me, then I don't want her. We can't R. We can't build a new M. Totally up to her though.

Lazarus, again, perhaps a language barrier is causing issues here.

I do believe that 'withholding sex' is a misnomer. It doesn't give enough information about the events to pass judgement.

One partner using sex as tool to control the others behaviour is not a healthy relationship. Conversely, I also believe that one partner using the others behaviour to control sex is also unhealthy.

Seems like the thing to do in both cases to me is resolve the issues or gtfo out the relationship.

To my mind it’s not about a particular sex act at all. Not really. It’s about perceived intimacy, trust, and value. There is a thread on the wayward side addressing this right now. It’s about things done, given to the AP that were denied to the spouse. Whether that be sex at all, a particular sex act, material goods, or just time. And it’s not about gender, either.

Imagine exhibiting ED with the spouse, but not the AP. The spouse may feel unattractive and undesirable. Or, participating in a sex act with an AP but not the spouse. That can reasonably be perceived as exhibiting greater lust and desire for the AP. Or even something as simple as communicating first with the AP in the morning after waking up. That can be perceived as a reflection of the spouse’s relative value. All these things suck.

What I have seen over my many years here at SI and reading the Wayward forum are many WW's that wind up doing sexual acts for the BH that feel they must do. They feel they owe it to the BH. They feel shame and want so desperately to be forgiven that they will do most anything to try to regain the love they threw away from the BH. However, many of these same WW's, over time, start resenting the BH. They start feeling used and abused. They feel manipulated by the BH's abuse of power. They start resenting the BH. And, the marriage will end. And it will be the WW who finally realizes that, although she made some shitty choices and this is her fault, she still doesn't deserve to be treated in such a fashion.

I feel many women on this thread have expressed that we understand exactly what you men are stating. That you deserve the same sex acts that the WW did with the AP. I get that and I don't think you are wrong for wanting that. Other women on this thread have agreed with this concept, too.

Where it gets tricky is if the WW doesn't want to do it. I don't know why they wouldn't, that is not my job to figure out. That is work that the WW must do. If she does the work and still feels the same way a BH can still make it a dealbreaker and I would understand that. However, in doing that work that doesn't mean that what the WW feels about the acts she is refusing the BH aren't valid. If a BH feels that the WW doesn't want to do it because the WW valued the AP more, dealbreaker, understandable. But, a WW who is doing such acts for the BH for the wrong reasons is just a different kind of broken. And this will not be a healthy or happy marriage and most likely will end.

There is no fairness in any aspect of infidelity. Because of its nature, there can't be any fairness in infidelity.

So we shouldn't try to balance the scales at all?

Not one man is saying force, coerce, or anything of the sort. If a BH says that a blow job is a requirement of reconciliation, and his WW agrees, what is the problem? If she doesn't, and they divorce, what is the problem?

There is a clear message of "this was important enough to keep the AP happy, but it's not important enough to keep you happy" here. I feel like I am talking into a wall.

Women who have disagreed in this thread, are you really not seeing that you are telling the men here that you do not see this issue the same as us, therefore we are wrong?

Its a situation where both have to make a decision. What do you want out of the relationship? What will it take to reconcile? I was not looking for a recreation of that she and the AP did. I wanted more than that. I was denied, so I expected to not be denied. If she felt that she could not then we would have to decide what we were going to do. She decided to never deny me ever again. I decided to never ask her to do something she does not want to do. We talked it out.

As for what she said about denying me and doing it for him. She said there was no way she can explain it that will not hurt. She wanted to please him. I take that as she did not want to please me. She understood that and said she did not mean it to be viewed that way. But how else can you view it. She said he was very adventurous and that made her want to be adventurous too. I explained to her that the things that she counted as adventurous, I asked for and we talked about and she said no. To do them with him and not me was not adventurous but callous and cruel to me. We could have been adventurous together.

Today, we have done some of those things as time passed. For a while sex was just sex. The special connection I thought we had was gone. It took time for that connection to reestablish. We have done some things that we've never done before, that she never did with the AP. But it is not the same as being the first to do something with your wife. I will always be the second, not the first. That cant change.

SMS: One of my coworkers confided to my xww that she cheated on her truly gorgeous husband with guys she met at the gym because she liked rough kinky sex but didn’t want her husband to think of her as the kind of woman that likes rough kinky sex. Truly fucked up thinking from an otherwise brilliant woman.

[This message edited by PlanC at 10:08 AM, February 16th (Friday)]

My wife once told me, "I want you to want to wash the dishes!" I'm not there yet, but I try because I love her. And because I get sex when I want. She also tries her best to get into the mood.

If you are unable to try to enjoy and do things you don't want to do, you probably aren't R material. In fact, you probably would struggle with relationships period. Relationships are filled with big and small compromises.

@SMS

Where it gets tricky is if the WW doesn't want to do it. I don't know why they wouldn't, that is not my job to figure out. That is work that the WW must do. If she does the work and still feels the same way a BH can still make it a dealbreaker and I would understand that. However, in doing that work that doesn't mean that what the WW feels about the acts she is refusing the BH aren't valid. If a BH feels that the WW doesn't want to do it because the WW valued the AP more, dealbreaker, understandable. But, a WW who is doing such acts for the BH for the wrong reasons is just a different kind of broken. And this will not be a healthy or happy marriage and most likely will end.

Yes, exactly this.

I feel many women on this thread have expressed that we understand exactly what you men are stating. That you deserve the same sex acts that the WW did with the AP. I get that and I don't think you are wrong for wanting that. Other women on this thread have agreed with this concept, too.

There have been a couple of women, but there have been far more examples of "I don't feel that way, therefore what you are asking for is wrong" responses.

It's really infuriating.

SMS: One of my coworkers confided to my xww that she cheated on her truly gorgeous husband with guys she met at the gym because she liked rough kinky sex but didn’t want her husband to think of her as the kind of woman that likes rough kinky sex. Truly fucked up thinking from an otherwise brilliant woman.

More common than we probably think it is. I think this is a separate symptom of the same sickness that gave birth to this thread. We've turned sex into something so convoluted, it doesn't make sense anymore.

SMS: One of my coworkers confided to my xww that she cheated on her truly gorgeous husband with guys she met at the gym because she liked rough kinky sex but didn’t want her husband to think of her as the kind of woman that likes rough kinky sex. Truly fucked up thinking from an otherwise brilliant woman.

Yes, that is fucked up. But, I understand the thought process. She was ashamed of her "kinkiness" and valued what her husband thought of her. She didn't value what the AP's thought of her.

PlanC,

"Her sex drive is far higher than mine. She wants it at least daily. I would be happy with twice a week. I perform on demand because I should meet her needs. If I am not in the mood, I get there. Which is the way it should be—in a relationship one should try to meet the other’s needs.

She has requested a sex act to which I have not yet agreed. But if I had cheated on her and done that act with someone else, you can bet I’d do it. "

Is this a sex act she never did?

A sex act she did before she met you?

A sex act she did with her OM?

If you are unable to try to enjoy and do things you don't want to do, you probably aren't R material. In fact, you probably would struggle with relationships period. Relationships are filled with big and small compromises.

IMHO, you're not M material if this is your view of relationships.

Today, we have done some of those things as time passed. For a while sex was just sex. The special connection I thought we had was gone. It took time for that connection to reestablish. We have done some things that we've never done before, that she never did with the AP. But it is not the same as being the first to do something with your wife. I will always be the second, not the first. That cant change.

Which is why I stress, "and more". I honestly feel like a WS should try to go "above and beyond", not just recreate the things they did with the AP, but do more. Be it emotional, financial or sexual. Your BS should be the "first" for things, not always second (or not at all) to the AP.

SMS: One of my coworkers confided to my xww that she cheated on her truly gorgeous husband with guys she met at the gym because she liked rough kinky sex but didn’t want her husband to think of her as the kind of woman that likes rough kinky sex. Truly fucked up thinking from an otherwise brilliant woman.

All the time. Which is why I go back to my question, how many men are cheating because they know this behavior exists in women? It's a lot easier to find an AP and have anal sex than to try to have your wife do the same with you. And if your wife cheats, she'll happily do that for the AP. It's insane.

Where it gets tricky is if the WW doesn't want to do it. I don't know why they wouldn't, that is not my job to figure out.

It's not my job either. But it's also not my job to try to make BS's feel like "that's OK". Because it's not, not for me, and not for most who are posting here. So, really, we should reframe the discussion; if you "don't want to do it" with your H but did with your H, you really should strongly consider walking away from the relationship. Because, as much as we all don't want to say it, it says something very significant about how you feel about your BS. We've all danced around the issue, but, frankly, if I wanted to go down on my AP but never did or would do that for my W, and say "I just don't want to" in R, well.. That kind of tells me, in a subconscious way, how I feel about my W compared to my AP. And I would suggest to myself, or any man who said something like this here, they need to walk away and give their W a fair settlement, because you just don't love her/aren't attracted to her.

Women who have disagreed in this thread, are you really not seeing that you are telling the men here that you do not see this issue the same as us, therefore we are wrong?

I'm telling you that I see this issue different from you. Can't talk for anyone else and I'm not sure I told you you were wrong. People are allowed to express differing opinions.

I do not want my husband to treat me in the way he treated his AP. He used her as an ego kibble vending machine, just as she used him. I don't care if that currency was compliments, validation, sex acts or gifts I want no part of that broken thinking in my marriage. I do not feel entitled to use him as personal vending machine.

I don't need to participate in the same activities that my WH and his AP's did in order for me to feel worthy or validated.

My WH affairs were about HIM and his

fucked-up-ness.

They had nothing to do with me.

My worth, my happiness comes from within, not from my WH buying me jewelry.

So how does a BH's self worth come from whether or not he gets a BJ from his wife?

how many men are cheating because they know this behavior exists in women?

Just wow.

I think this thread is done now.

Unfortunatley Robin, many male APs do feel married women are "easier" targets. Spend any time at all on a red pill or pick up artist forum and you'll see firsthand.

I don't think many women have been "friendzoned". We've all seen the facebook or other meme type posts where some poor dude is friendzoned by some chick. Usually the guy has made some grand gesture to her and he's shot down harshly.

I bet most men have been friendzoned to some extent or the other. We learn to recognize it and move the hell on in a hurry. It sucks to spend a bunch of time and money trying to begin some sort of relationship with a woman only to be put in the position of "maybe" or "if nothing else is available". It's worse if you learn she's banged some random dude at a party or whatever while you're expending effort trying to engage with her. Some women feel entitled to lead a man on hinting at more and consume his time and other resources. The man will forgo his needs or wants in the hopes that someday she'll see thing differently. I'll be fucking damned if that's going to happen in my marriage.

That's kinda the dynamic most guys are talking about here. I played my hand. I invested in her. I put my WW on a pedestal and treated her accordingly. I made sacrifices for her. I changed the course of my life for her. She threw that shit in my face. So now she has to come to terms with the fact she's no longer on the pedestal. In fact, I often have a hard time seeing her as a good woman worthy of any effort at all from me. She must change, fix her shit, and prove herself to me if she wants me to stay. I am not going to force her to do a damn thing. I need to feel she embraces all aspects of fixing this enthusiastically. That includes sex, pulling her weight around the household, maintaining her appearance\weight, spending properly and a lot of other things. I will leave if she doesn't meet my expectations. It's that simple really. The rules of the M have changed. It's called fucking consequences. We're supposedly building a new M that is not the same as the old one. If she doesn't like the new M, she always has the option to leave. You girls need to remember she put herself in this position.

Just wow.

I think this thread is done now.

Why do you say that? You think that men don't know that married women commonly exhibit this behavior? Because we do, it's "common" knowledge for many of us.

Or you think that men don't cheat to have kinky sex? Because, while I can't speak to this first hand, I can say, without a shadow of doubt, that is what I would cheat for. And how many stories do we read from WW's who met men who did just that, went for the "kinky" stuff fast and without much trepidation?

Unfortunatley Robin, many male APs do feel married women are "easier" targets. Spend any time at all on a red pill or pick up artist forum and you'll see firsthand.

There's a whole subculture that works directly on this, how to best and most easily sleep with women, and, yes, a lot of men who do this target married women because they are "easier". We're not making this up, feel free to search for yourself, but there's 1000's of posts and articles on how to do it. These posts aren't there for entertainment value, they are there because men are following the "directions" and using this to sleep with married women.

So having compiled some of the recent sentiments on this thread here's what I've come up with:

Women cheat because they are 'easy'. Men cheat because women are easy. 'Us girls' need to accept that easy women are not entitled to bodily autonomy.

Have I missed anything?