SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Back to the ED question. It is not always the case that Viagra was used with the AP but not the BW. In fact, if you read the applicable BW threads you will see that most times it is not. You will also notice that most BWs who ask what to do are NOT advised to D but are rather comforted with the thought that the ED is temporary, caused by guilt, shame or some such emotion. They are then advised to wait patiently (and lovingly, often) for the issue to be resolved.

Wife in order to try to R with you I'd need you to.

1. WANT to expand our sex life to include things you have denied me but gave to AP willingly.

A response by the wife of: "When I did those things I was broken and mis-prioritized what was actually important in my life and am no longer comfortable in continuing or re-living that behaivor." Could work for any of those conditions. What I think we're asking is why is OK to say that

And that's why I'm saying, communicate. Ask her why. Why does she say that? Why is it behavior she lived in an A but not with her BH? What parts of it does she consider broken behavior, and why? And when she answers, ask why again. Figure out together what the roadblock is. Dig deeper. There is honestly no way to know what's going on if you don't dig deeper.

In the end, at least you've seen the whole picture. Then you two can figure out if it's something you're willing to overcome together. If it's not, and if the insult is too severe, then D. There are no judgments for being unable to get past what happened in the A. There shouldn't be, anyway.

Smoken -

I’m really not judging or trying to devalue your input. And if you must know, I have read your post, know your story and I unequivocally sympathize with you. You were actually a prisoner and victim in your marriage. That was a toxic marriage that should have never existed. In fact any time a WW has come here, regardless of cheating, and spoken of abuse or REAL violence, I have advised her to run, not walk from the abuser because domestic violence is not ok. But we aren’t talking about that, or anything close

I just don’t want to see gasoline poured on a fire to make this conversation take an ugly turn. It’s like pulling the trump card to invalidate the logical aspects of the counter arguments. Nobody here (I should hope) is anywhere near discussing sexual violence. So I don’t want it to be associated with what is being said here because it doesn’t apply.

If a couple wants to R, they need to understand each other needs end of story. Sexual equality is often one of them. If that can’t be rectified, I’m telling to the BS to maintain a shred of dignity and find someone worthy, who WILL give you the treatment your WS won’t. Divorce, let the WS figure their shit out, and find someone worth your love and care. There are 7 billion people, it’s easier than it looks..That’s all

[This message edited by nicenomore at 2:00 PM, February 16th (Friday)]

And that's why I'm saying, communicate. Ask her why. Why does she say that? Why is it behavior she lived in an A but not with her BH? What parts of it does she consider broken behavior, and why? And when she answers, ask why again. Figure out together what the roadblock is. Dig deeper. There is honestly no way to know what's going on if you don't dig deeper.

And the same thing goes for a timeline or transparency? Which is the context of the question.Talk it out?

edited for clarity

[This message edited by Murkywaters at 2:18 PM, February 16th (Friday)]

If a couple wants to R, they need to understand each other needs end of story.

I agree with this wholeheartedly. I also feel that a BS and WS need to understand that sometimes what they think is a need is actually a want.

Sistermilkshake, you nailed my thoughts exactly.

<sigh>

AND sometimes a want Is ALSO a need, or a want becomes a need, when it’s something someone else gets to enjoy besides the spouse. I know what mine are, especially if I were to R.

We can say it again. No one HAS to do anything. But no one can sit here and say a WS deserves a chance at R if they don’t want to try to work for it or want to even Do the work. There are better people in the world, worthy of a GOOD BS love and attention.

I guess I'm saying something like:

If 'yes' to anal sex means 'yes' to R, you're probably not focusing on the right things.

R is a hell of a lot more than sex.

[This message edited by sisoon at 2:40 PM, February 16th (Friday)]

I agree wholeheartedly, nicenomore. The WS should most definitely be trying to do the work if they wish to R. And this includes looking at sexual interactions and looking at the Bs's wants and desires.

But as has been said before, for me those interactions need to come from a place of desire within the WS. Sexual desire or true desire to please your partner.

To me an ultimatum to perform them removes an environment for that to occur. How could I ever be sure that it came from a place of willingness and desire rather than a sense of obligation and a want to save their own ass?

R is a hell of a lot more than sex.

Yes, that's honestly the easy part, IMHO. But it's also the part where we (men and women) seem very far apart.

Putting a fine point on it for myself, don't bother trying to R if your going to keep things from me that you gave the AP. Be they emotional, financial or sexual. I hate to say it, but I honestly don't care the reason why; what I am saying is that R without, at the very least, parity with the AP is a fools errand. If as a WS, male or female, you enter into R without that as your absolutely minimal goal, you shouldn't be doing it at all because you're setting yourself up for failure.

As a BH, if my WW had come to me and said "I did XYZ with the AP, I'll never do it with you; I was broken and hurting and willing to do anything for him just to feel better", I would have thanked her for her honesty, realized I have an amazing amount of respect for her having said that and her honesty, and initiated a divorce. Not because I'm an an ogre, not because I'm an asshole, because I know, for me, there's no way I could or would ever get over it. Every time my penis brushed her ass and she pulled away, I'd think to myself how she asked the OM to penetrate her there and probably pushed him inside of her instead of pulling away. It would never stop for me, and I'd never regain my footing; and I know that about myself, so I would have divorced her, not because I trying to be vindictive, not because I was trying to force her to do it with me, but because I would know that I couldn't live with it. It would be a deal breaker. And, admit it or not, I think that there are a lot of other men here who feel the same way.

My ask isn't that WW's do it, or that BH's abuse their wives and force them into it (I honestly have no idea how this even got started) or that try to fix the sex power imbalance between men and women. My ask is that we are honest with people, no, as a WW, you aren't going to be able to R if you take the tact that "I'm not going to do for my H what I did for my AP". And guess what? You won't as a BH either if those things you did for the AP are important to your wife! Let's stop lying to one another and making BH's bad guys because this is pretty much a universal deal breaker for many of us when it involves sexual things. It is, I wish it wasn't, but it is. Asking BH's to accept it about their WW's is about as sensible as asking BW's to accept that their husband will never be as emotionally close to them as their AP, will never buy them things as nice as the AP got, and will never be as financially free with them as they were the AP. It's not reasonable; I'd never advise a BW to accept that, just like I wouldn't a BH.

And, for the record, if the story about the Viagra is true, I'd say to that BW that is ridiculous (that your WH won't take it for you and did the AP) and tell you to leave. It doesn't matter what it is, the BS must get the best. She got Viagra, you get Cialis. If a WS isn't willing or able to do that, save everyone the heartbreak and effort and move to D; because it's simply an unreasonable ask in R, IMHO.

How could I ever be sure that it came from a place of willingness and desire rather than a sense of obligation and a want to save their own ass?

Which I think, without question, is what every person on here absolutely wants. Problem is, an A happened, and no matter what from that point forward, it's going to be tainted. But tainted is better than not given; and that's why I suggest not "do what you did with the AP" but "do more". Because all the acts done for the first time with the AP are tainted.

But I can near guarantee you there's not a single person on here who wants to have anal sex with their W under the condition of "After I do it for another man". Not one. But that IS the situation, there's no unf**king that we know how to do. So, given that situation, what is better, doing it or not? And, in my eyes, doing it, eagerly, frequently, and with gusto is a dramatically better answer. And if there's something that wasn't done with the AP, do that too, because that will feel far less contrived and forced.

R is a hell of a lot more than sex.

For me it's not. I was in a sexless marriage for 4 years. She had more sex with AP than me in our marriage. She had more anal sex with AP than regular sex with me. She gave me every excuse under the sun why we weren't having sex.

I want sex as much and often as I want now. I will no longer tolerate being rejected or any excuse she may have unless it's some sort medical emergency or the death flu. If she's "not in the mood" then she better at least make an effort to find a way to satisfy me. If she ever rejects me again I'm gone. I refuse to be tortured like that anymore.

To me an ultimatum to perform them removes an environment for that to occur. How could I ever be sure that it came from a place of willingness and desire rather than a sense of obligation and a want to save their own ass?

I am uncertain about my WW's motivations on R or staying in the M at all. I question if her remorse is authentic or not. I can't tell if she's manipulating me. I'll never know how she truly feels about anything. I can only go by her actions and, to a lesser extent, her words.

An affair doesn't exactly say "I love and value you". Everyone knows cheating is wrong and will possibly result in the loss of you M and massively change your life. Yet they cheat anyway. In the aftermath, my WW is willing to do just about anything. She has said those exact words. I honestly would not have tolerated a fraction of the bullshit I've put her through. Polygraphs, lawyer visits, post nup bullshit, splitting finances, and I made her tell her parents and my parents. I also had her sit down and answer the OBS's questions. Good times and that's the tip of the fucking iceberg.

I really don't fucking understand the whole damn shitshow of cheating or (more and more) R. R is a minefield because of issues like this.

Well I guess that's where we differ, rideitout. I would rather my WS not do any sexual act that did not come from wholehearted want on his part.

It's then on me to choose if we can work through it or end our marriage.

I'm still looking for the part where someone said that R is only sex, or that communication isn't important regarding this issue.

This is a tough enough discussion workout the strawmen and red herrings.

This is how I (we) feel. You've said that it's valid. We're saying without the desired actions, we would divorce. If a WW asked about this, I'd advise her in conjunction with how I feel. People who disagree are welcome to do the same. What's to argue about?

For me it's not. I was in a sexless marriage for 4 years. She had more sex with AP than me in our marriage. She had more anal sex with AP than regular sex with me. She gave me every excuse under the sun why we weren't having sex.

And maybe this is something else that people are missing. This is incredibly common for BH's (and maybe BW's too, but I know it is for BH's). My W had more sex with the AP than she did me during the A (over that time period). And every excuse in the book was thrown, tired, period, vagina hurts, stomach hurts, flu, cold. You name it, it was thrown out there. All the while, with a period/hurt vagina/sick stomach somehow managed to have sex with the AP half a dozen times a day when they were together.

People get hardened when stuff like this happens; it wasn't "I don't feel like it" it was always a deflection, blaming some external factor. So now, what do you believe? Because you know that most of (maybe all) those external factors, not only during the A, but through the entire marriage were BS. Because when AP was available, she'd take her period/sick self over to his place and f**k him until he couldn't get it up anymore.

I think back on my marriage and wonder how many other times did this happen. How many times did she say she was sore because we had sex the day before and I felt bad and comforted her. I thought sex once a week was "too much for her to take" by the way she made it out effect her. But, truth is, she's completely capable (and now willing) to have sex a few times a day with me. Suddenly no more pain, no more periods, no more upset stomach..

It's amazing; I almost wonder if A's might cure cancer. :)

Well I guess that's where we differ, rideitout. I would rather my WS not do any sexual act that did not come from wholehearted want on his part.

It's then on me to choose if we can work through it or end our marriage

Then we disagree, and we see this issue differently. I respect your point of view. Do you respect mine?

Of course, xhz. You are as entitled to your opinion as I am to mine.

And you are entitled to respectfully question mine as I do yours

I think back on my marriage and wonder how many other times did this happen. How many times did she say she was sore because we had sex the day before and I felt bad and comforted her. I thought sex once a week was "too much for her to take" by the way she made it out effect her. But, truth is, she's completely capable (and now willing) to have sex a few times a day with me. Suddenly no more pain, no more periods, no more upset stomach..

So familiar. This is the elephant in the room. My ex was always in too much pain for sex, but had no trouble talking a pounding from the OM any time.

If you're ever in Minneapolis, I'll buy you a beer.