SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

@ReliantRobin, I meant it when I thanks to you and others for the discussion. I do get testy when I feel I'm not being heard, and moreso when I see a double standard.

[This message edited by xhz700 at 3:27 PM, February 16th (Friday)]

Rideitout, I also had a largely sexless marriage before the A.

My husband would 'initiate' often by making his desire known and then expecting sex to happen. The times it did happen was for me physically uncomfortable at best and often mildly painful.

Over time I stopped responding to his 'requests' for sex. We had multiple talks about fixing our dying sex life but nothing ever changed.

I was never 'denying' him sex. I just no longer desired to have sex where I felt devalued and as if my pleasure was unimportant. It was never about controlling him. It was about protecting me.

He decided the issue was I was sexless. He had an affair in part because he felt he entitled to sex and if I wasn't giving it, it was fair for him to get his needs met elsewhere.

Before I found out about the affair we decided to focus on our marriage (lol what a joke right?) All of a sudden he was finding ways to make sex enjoyable for me. To make me feel like it was something we did together for the joy of us rather than something he did to me. It was amazing and I'm pretty confident that all of a sudden both our sexual needs were being met.

I'm not saying that's how things were in your marriage. It just made me think that perhaps before his A my husband's story would have sounded eerily similar to yours.

Thank you xhz, I understand the frustration well. It's been a very interesting discussion for me and I'm also thankful to those of you who have posted such thoughtful, inciteful and at times raw things.

We're all here because we're hurting. It's easy for emotions to run high.

man...go do some work and have 7 pages to read lol.....

Me simplifying as much as i can.

BS should have a reasonable expectation to have a mutually satisfying sex life with WS

If WS has sex/sex acts/frequency, whatever with AP over the BS then it is not that WS dislikes sex, its that WS dislikes sex with BS

If BS wants to improve sex life with WS as part of R but WS is not interested then BS needs to evaluate this as a possible deal breaker. Know one should be forced or coerced to have sex. Its simply a matter that WS isn't interested in sex with BS

IMHO, if this is the case, which seems to be alot. BS should seriously look at leaving. Better to be by yourself, or eventually find a partner who is actually sexually interested in you then deal with this mind fuck. Especially after the mind fuck that BS has already gone through.

Rideitout and XHZ,

I am right there with you. She absolutely tortured me regarding sex. Told me she had no sex drive etc. Promised to get counseling and speak to her doctor. Made me beg for sex, then made me feel guilty if she gave it. For AP it was pull over in this parking lot and I'll ride you... and god knows what else.

It is such horseshit. There is literally no wiggle room on this issue for me. I'm in the best shape of my life, successful, good looking, full head of hair and I have always done well with women, I don't have to settle for this crap and I won't.

Yeah, I pretty much think a "want" is a "want" and it is different than an actual "need".

A need is anything which is essential for survival. Everything else than need falls into the category of want which is inessential for basic survival but is usually required for the fulfillment of desires.

ETA: But, I do know that definition is a bit simplistic. I know in marriages we often have needs. One of the many "why's" that WS's give for having an affair is "unmet needs". FWH thought that he than needed to fuck the OW. Come to find out, he only wanted to fuck It.

[This message edited by SisterMilkshake at 4:52 PM, February 16th (Friday)]

@ReliantRobin

I can absolutely see that would be a problem. Without being too graphic, it wasn't the issue in my relationship. I enjoy giving, and really enjoy seeing my wife feel good, she always had orgasms and was very aroused before sex before the A. Now, I struggle to do it, not because I don't want to, I just know it doesn't matter. The AP hit it with near 0 foreplay, didn't do much for her other than stick his dick in and have an orgasm. So obviously all the oral sex and orgasms in the world didn't make a bit of difference to her. And, it doesn't seem like she much cares now either, she seems just as happy sexually now as she did before.

I am right there with you. She absolutely tortured me regarding sex. Told me she had no sex drive etc. Promised to get counseling and speak to her doctor. Made me beg for sex, then made me feel guilty if she gave it. For AP it was pull over in this parking lot and I'll ride you... and god knows what else.

I've heard the exact same story. As have most of my friends (many of which long ago "gave up" and either decided to suffer in silence or get an AP to fill their sexual needs. Right? Absolutely not. But common, yes it is, very much so. I can count on on finger the number of marriages I know where the man is pretty happy sexually. However, the price I had to pay (the A) to get that happiness, which, BTW, is still below what the AP got, makes the "happiness" a hollow victory. Sure, you get to do the things with your W you always wanted to, you get the frequency you wanted; but, to get that, you had to have another man sleep with your wife to awaken her sexuality? Or expose her to the realities of men? No thanks, I'd go back in a heartbeat to the way it used to be, except, of course, there is no going back.

Yes, I was tortured sexually, the things that mattered to me and the things that were most intimate to me were withheld my entire marriage. Yes, that has mostly stopped, but, now I'm tortured by the knowledge of what it took to make things "right".

When the husband and wife married they had their

what kind of sex life they wanted to have. Wife

said no to anal.

Now the husband always wanted to try it but he

never had a GF that would let him do it. Though

being understanding to get everything else that

he wanted and often he could live without anal.

And anal never really was that big of a deal to

him.

The affair happened, WW gave the OM anal.

The BH tells the WW he wants her to give him anal.

The WW says no.

How does the MC get the WW to see why the BH

needs to get what the OM got and for the BH to

see why WW does not have to get what the WW gave

the OM?

As they use to say the million dollar question.

Any way another question. What if it was not

about a sex act but frequency.

BH was getting one day a week before the PA, no

seconds. OM got it 5 days a week, 3 times each

day. 15 times a week. Is the WW allowed

to keep her BH to once a week after D day?

Or the BH got cut off during the PA. WW never

told the OM no. Is the WW never allowed to say no

to her BH? How does the WW make it up the BH

after cutting him off from sex for a year.

Does the WW have to put out 15 times a week for

53 weeks for her BH after the affair is over?

There is always going to be inequalities between

what the WW gave the BH and the OM.

Is there a fair solution?

Is there just compensation for the BH?

What would just compensation be for the BH?

Yes WW's have done things with their OM because

they wanted to feed their addiction to the

affair. So they went above and beyond their

comfort zone to keep the OM in the affair.

Just as any drug addict the WW was willing to do

anything to keep getting their fix.

D day, the WW is not willing to do anything to

keep her BH. Except to stop having sex with the

OM and go NC with him.

Yes many WW act out of character during their PA.

When they end the PA they always go back to the

way they were before. Refusing to loosen up for

their BH.

It is what it is.

[This message edited by oldtruck at 9:49 PM, February 16th (Friday)]

Yes WW's have done things with their OM because they wanted to feed their addiction to the

affair. So they went above and beyond their

comfort zone to keep the OM in the affair.

This explanation almost makes sense, but, think about it for a minute, how many OM are going to walk away because they don't get anal? It's all "on the side" anyway; as long as you're getting "something" it's enough.

No, I don't think "I needed to give him anal to keep him around" or "I needed to sleep with him 6 times a day, 5 wouldn't have been enough" are real reasons. They wanted to with the OM, and it wasn't just to "keep him around". It's beyond that, and that's the part that I think drives many nuts trying to figure out. What was it about him/her that made her "worthy" for whatever it was and not me?

1. Is sex (desirability, quantity, variety) the only measure of a man's masculinity? If not, what else?

2. Is sex the only thing of value a WW offers in reconciliation? If not, what else?

3. Does nothing else bother a BH besides the sex in the affair? If so, what is it?

4. Is their willingness to have sex the only value women have? If not, what else?

I have always been hyper sensitive to the idea that nothing about me mattered except my sexuality (foo, my H), so this thread is a massive trigger.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 10:42 PM, February 16th (Friday)]

Interesting questions, I'll give you my take.

1) No, not at all. A man can measure himself in many ways, but, in general, society measures him in a more limited number. Wealth is probably number 1, the more money you have, the more you are valued by society and women. I'm not going to say anything about the moral implications of this, but this is just the way it is.

2) This one is touchy. No, it's not the only thing of value that's offered in R. A lot of things need to be present to even start to think about sex, transparency, NC, apologies, etc. All the stuff that we talk about for both sexes, they all need to be in place. But the "only thing of value" in some ways, yes, that does ring true. It's really the only "new" thing that a WW can bring to the table that will have a lot of value for me. Buying me gifts, signing a post-nup, promises, explanations.. None of that means anything next to sex, at least not to me.

3) The lying. The sex and the lying are my hangups. The "emotional affair" aspect doesn't really bother me because it's about as real as a romance novel (at least in my case), there wasn't any love there, at least not from the OM, my W was a toy. I suppose if their was a more significant EA, perhaps I would be more upset.

4) Of course not. And I think that's kind of what you're reading here from men, they valued their wives for things other than sex, giving up sexual things that were valuable to them because their wife provided them other things of value. Companionship, a partner, trust, love, children, etc. Many, MANY men "give up" the sex they want to get those other things from women, and they make that trade willingly (although, a lot of men don't realize the trade they are making and get upset about it, topic for another day). Where it all comes crashing down is when an AP steps in and gets the things you had to convince yourself to give up to get the other things of value, the things that were very important to you that you had forgone for your W. That's when it all gets ripped apart because, what it says, there was no reason for me to give this up in the first place! It was just a stupid game, a power trip, or, alternately, you never really found me sexually attractive/appealing. None of those are good answers, and.. Well, you wind up with this thread.

1. Is sex (desirability, quantity, variety) the only measure of a man's masculinity? If not, what else?

No, it isn't the only one, but it is a very important one. The ability to provide and protect is as important of a consideration of masculinity as there is. A WW running around on you is about the best way to demonstrate that a man isn't getting the job done. Relate it to femininity and maternal ability. I am not sure what else would apply.

2. Is sex the only thing of value a WW offers in reconciliation? If not, what else?

No. The reason we are discussing it here is because it is the only one that it's tourney dismissed by women as unnecessary or unacceptable. I want an equal, a partner, someone I can depend on. For more on that, see my post earlier I'm this thread.

3. Does nothing else bother a BH besides the sex in the affair? If so, what is it?

Of course other things bother me. Betrayal. Dishonesty. Having taken me, my efforts, who I am as a person for granted.

4. Is their willingness to have sex the only value women have? If not, what else?

No. Dependability. Mutual respect. Honesty. Intimacy. Dedication.

I have always been hyper sensitive to the idea that nothing about me mattered except my sexuality (foo, my H), so this thread is a massive trigger.

I'm sorry that you've been affected this way by your past. You have value beyond what is between your legs. I'm not saying, and I don't think anyone else is saying that your willingness to be penetrated is all that matters. What are your dreams, what do you think about when you're alone, what are your hopes for yourself or your children, what is your favorite flower, who do you most respect, what is your favorite apple.

Women are not one-dimensional. I don't see you that way, and I hope that you don't see yourself that way.

I kinda view the encounters with the AP not so much as about the APs prowess but more about how hyped up the WS is by the ego kibbles.

Like the APs aren't special. They don't have magic sex super powers that throw the rules of sex out the window. What they offer is unrealistic validation of how desirable the WS is. The WS has their ego pumped and massaged by the AP. They are so desirable that AP must break taboo and be with them.

I imagine their sex drive goes into overdrive. Akin to HB. Nothing to do with sexual ability of the AP.

I imagine their sex drive goes into overdrive. Akin to HB. Nothing to do with sexual ability of the AP.

Probably true, but, also, does nothing to help the BS get over the disparity between what was offered during the "overdrive" period of the WS's A compared to the marriage.

If you end up divorced and back in the dating world, and start dating a man... and a few dates in, U find out he doesn't believe in kissing.... what are you going to do?

Will you accept that as authentic and keep seeing him? Or will you decide if kissing is important enough to you to move on to the next man? Will you try to convince him of the merits of kissing?

[This message edited by Notthevictem at 6:03 AM, February 17th (Saturday)]

Probably true, but, also, does nothing to help the BS get over the disparity between what was offered during the "overdrive" period of the WS's A compared to the marriage.

But it's why this idea of 'Well she was ready and willing to take it in the ass for him so she should ready and willing to take it in the ass for me' makes no sense to me.

The first was based on an unhealthy and unrealistic dynamic. She can't make herself be sexually excited if she's not. That's a not a reflection of the BS. It's a reflection of the vastly different set of scenarios.

I'm not saying it's fair. Demanding that a WS perform sexually and 'try to enjoy it' doesn't seem fair or realistic to me either.

NTV,

Your question obviously wasn't to me, but I have often thought if I was dating again, what would I do differently..

And, while this is going to cause a complete meltdown for some of the posters here, the simple answer is, if I'm not getting the "good stuff" sexually, I'm moving on. Because, my views on this have changed to something completely different because of the A; it's not that some women "don't do" things (whatever it is, anal, swallowing, sex a few times a day, etc), it's that they are selective in who they do those more extreme things with. If I'm not the "selected" one, that'll tell me what I need to know about continuing the relationship. Because, I've learned, both from my W and from this board, it's not her "boundaries/limits" it's me that's the determining factor as to what she'll do/won't do in bed.

Fair? Probably not. But I will NEVER be in the situation with a woman again of the "AP did something with my W that I didn't do". Ever. I can't stop anyone from cheating, but I can be darn sure that I won't be getting the "scraps" from the table and that the AP will have to use his imagination to think up something that we don't do in our relationship.

Yes, this is terribly unfair to women who might date me in the future. Frankly, I struggle to find a lot of sympathy, I've been the "good guy" who listened to all the BS about women and sex, and then got to see it all evaporate in clouds of bulls**t twice; once when I discovered that women really did like bad boys, and again when I discovered that "I don't do X" really means "I don't love you or am attracted enough to you to do X with you, but will happily do it for other men".

Ntv If kissing was important to me and I wasn't fully invested in the relationship I would end it.

If I was more invested i would see if it was something he would work on. If not, move on.

But it's why this idea of 'Well she was ready and willing to take it in the ass for him so she should ready and willing to take it in the ass for me' makes no sense to me.

I get it RR; and I really do appreciate you staying engaged in the conversation to provide a female insight.

All I can say; while it doesn't make sense to you, it does to me, and it does to most of the men who are posting to this thread. And, in a lot of ways, that's all WW's need to know; not "why" it makes sense (although I'm happy to keep trying to explain it), but that it's how many men feel and, if they hope to R, have to understand that this is in fact how many men see sex and sexual acts offered by women. Should we? I have no idea, women are saying no, my intuition and experience tells me otherwise. But, it frankly doesn't matter, because the consistency and repeatability of what men are saying here really does tell the story better than trying to figure out the "why" of it. Many men, myself included equate sexual acts with love, and the more extreme the acts, the more the other person cares for you and loves you. Just like I'll never understand how or why a lot of women equate buying stuff for them with love, I suspect many women will never understand why I equate anal sex with love. But I do. Many other men posting here do. Many male AP's do, and they push for it relentlessly (and often get it). And that's the most telling testimony of all.

Ntv If kissing was important to me and I wasn't fully invested in the relationship I would end it.

If I was more invested i would see if it was something he would work on. If not, move on.

That's all we're saying. Just change out the kissing for whatever else.

[This message edited by Notthevictem at 6:30 AM, February 17th (Saturday)]