SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Captain,

Oh. My. God. You crack me up. :)

So I am not a ma of many words. Everyone one is different...everyone has a different love language. So I will just speak for myself.

I have a similar "history". Emotional abuse and physical/sexual abuse from 3 family members. From the age of 7-14ish.

When I was about 18-19 I had my first 2 sexual partners. One I had gone to school with since 1st grade or so. One That I had dated for a year a few years prior but we were to young for sex then. So both people were very familiar to me. These weren't 1 night stand bar hookups. Both sexual experiences were horrible. Not because they went badly...physically. But man I emotional was a robot. My body went through all the typical reactions but my head wasn't there.

This should have been the time of my life for a teen. But damn it if I didn't feel as dead inside as when I was being abused.

Then I met me wife and bang...it was AMAZING! Man how good is sex when you want to be there? How good is sex when you are with someone you trust, someone you feel safe with, someone you care about.

Then 20 years or so later I have a mental brake down and an affair. And it is the same sex...the same abuse sex. Where my body is kinda going through the motions but my brain is detached.

Then post affair sex with my wife...bang my body and brain are all in.

Now I have DID I have 4 split personalities determined by I don't even know how many doctors.

So what is love to me? Love to me is when all of my "Me's" are allowed to be them. Are allowed to be safe. And my wife is the only one in the world who brings that out in me.

My goal in life is to stay on the path of healing because I have learned that I can only be the best me I can be one it is 4 me's together. Not 4 me's divided.

Because my body and brain knows she is the one whether i can write a fancy poem about it...well that's another story

BS here.

I am still married to her.

I have not shown her the door.

I am still THERE for her.

I have stopped the screaming & shouting etc.

I am prepared to live with the love of my life to the end.

That's love.

Does she show remorse?

Does she anticipate triggers?

Is she prepared to help me through the bad times?

Does she check up on me every so often during the day?

Does she know the shit she put me through?

Is she sorry for what she put me through?

In my book that would be LOVE from my WS.

Or

Is she still only sad for what she did?

Still self centered!!!

My BS is convinced that I neither know what love is and don't possess the ability to show or share with her. I speak many fine words, but without action, I may as well be speaking a different language.

Early on she asked me what I loved about her. My reply was I love the way you make me feel. Pure selfish. She doesn't feel any from me. And I caused that to happen.

Pigpen, that is the kind of love a cheater can feel. I'm pretty sure that's the kind of love my husband had for me while he was cheating. That ain't love. I hope you can work on finding out what it is to really feel love for someone because it is the most beautiful thing you could ever experience.

Except that that was the "love" he felt for me 7 years after his A supposedly ended...

When I say "I love you" to my wife, it seems to wound her, or at least give her pause. This morning she asked me, "How do I know you love me? You used to tell me you loved me, but then you betrayed me, and you told the AP you loved her, so how am I supposed to believe you now? Even if you're sincere, how do I know that you even know what love is?"

I think in her way, she is letting you know that when you say that it’s a trigger to her. It hurts deeply. I’m going to suggest stop saying that to her for a goodly while and just work on proving yourself.

These are fair questions. I was able, to some degree, to explain to her why "love" with the AP was not love, regardless of what was said. The affair was about me, about the self-hate and the emptiness inside of me, and the desperate need to fill that hole. Convincing myself (and the AP) that it was "love" was imperative, because otherwise, if it wasn't love, then I was just a horrible piece of shit. And I already felt like a horrible piece of shit in the first place. It was necessary for me to feel that my bad choices were real. Accepting otherwise was too painful to admit or deal with.

Or perhaps if you wanted sex with the OW, saying “I love you” was the currency you had to pay. Worth thinking about.

More than anything, I feel more able to love….

That’s a real interesting statement.

I feel love in my heart for her, and I choose to love her consciously. I want her, and the love I feel for her is so great it feels overflowing sometimes, like a damn that might burst. I am fighting for her.

Maybe she sees this new found love as guilt, to a certain extent. In other words, you’re so guilty over the betrayal you are clinging to her, and that is the basis for your love.

But then again, there was the A. And even if the A didn't exist, there were all those years before that where I wasn't able to give her what she needed from me, I rejected her…

And this is what she is fighting against. You have never really been there for her, then betrayed her, and now you’re in love with her. Not to disrespect you, but I can see why she’d be skeptical.

It is one thing to say, "But I'm here for you now and I'm waiting and willing to give you everything I should have given you in the first place". That's all well and good, but is it too late? That's the question. How do I show her that my love is real? How do I help her accept what was, so that she can accept what is?

I think here you have hit the nail on the head. After all this time, how can she possibly trust you? The answer is- she cannot. And never will. And justifiably so. So then we look at what you can do and I would say this- be true to yourself and true to her every day. Be mindful of what you have been and done to her and let it go. Let her make all the decisions and whether or not she will ever be accepting of you. For now, let it be enough she is still with you. Then just try and truly be there for her and she will accept what she will accept.

I am being patient.

The best advice I could ever give.

When I say "I love you" to my wife, it seems to wound her, or at least give her pause. This morning she asked me, "How do I know you love me? You used to tell me you loved me, but then you betrayed me, and you told the AP you loved her, so how am I supposed to believe you now? Even if you're sincere, how do I know that you even know what love is?"

I think in her way, she is letting you know that when you say that it’s a trigger to her. It hurts deeply. I’m going to suggest stop saying that to her for a goodly while and just work on proving yourself.

These are fair questions. I was able, to some degree, to explain to her why "love" with the AP was not love, regardless of what was said. The affair was about me, about the self-hate and the emptiness inside of me, and the desperate need to fill that hole. Convincing myself (and the AP) that it was "love" was imperative, because otherwise, if it wasn't love, then I was just a horrible piece of shit. And I already felt like a horrible piece of shit in the first place. It was necessary for me to feel that my bad choices were real. Accepting otherwise was too painful to admit or deal with.

Or perhaps if you wanted sex with the OW, saying “I love you” was the currency you had to pay. Worth thinking about.

More than anything, I feel more able to love….

That’s a real interesting statement.

I feel love in my heart for her, and I choose to love her consciously. I want her, and the love I feel for her is so great it feels overflowing sometimes, like a damn that might burst. I am fighting for her.

Maybe she sees this new found love as guilt, to a certain extent. In other words, you’re so guilty over the betrayal you are clinging to her, and that is the basis for your love.

But then again, there was the A. And even if the A didn't exist, there were all those years before that where I wasn't able to give her what she needed from me, I rejected her…

And this is what she is fighting against. You have never really been there for her, then betrayed her, and now you’re in love with her. Not to disrespect you, but I can see why she’d be skeptical.

It is one thing to say, "But I'm here for you now and I'm waiting and willing to give you everything I should have given you in the first place". That's all well and good, but is it too late? That's the question. How do I show her that my love is real? How do I help her accept what was, so that she can accept what is?

I think here you have hit the nail on the head. After all this time, how can she possibly trust you? The answer is- she cannot. And never will. And justifiably so. So then we look at what you can do and I would say this- be true to yourself and true to her every day. Be mindful of what you have been and done to her and let it go. Let her make all the decisions and whether or not she will ever be accepting of you. For now, let it be enough she is still with you. Then just try and truly be there for her and she will accept what she will accept.

I am being patient.

The best advice I could ever give.

I hope the following is understandable...

In a sense, my W's problem was that she couldn't accept love. I showed her love for decades, and yet she felt unloved ... self-hate in action.

So I think love is about giving, getting, and accepting. Or maybe getting, giving, and accepting.

I feel very selfish in loving my W. I want to be with her, because I feel good when she's around. I feel good that she seems to welcome sex with me. I feel good that she's agreed to be exclusive with me (2 rounds of that: one when she agreed to M, one after the the A....) I think she brings out a lot of the best in me, and I like that.

I have/had a couple of hobbies that intrude on home life, and she's supported me in both. I like that.

So for me, love IS selfish. I'm sharing here, and I'm also arguing that the selfish aspects of love need to be recognized and talked about.

The accepting part of love became clear to me when we did the love language self-test - physical strokes was almost the only thing I wanted; acts of service was extremely high for my W.

The problem was that my W always felt at least a little scared when I stroked her in passing, and I placed very little value on cooking - if she didn't cook, I knew I wouldn't starve.

So we both gave, but not what the other partner wanted.

We both worked on this. I reminded myself that her acts of service were her way of showing love. She learned that my touching throughout the day was my way of showing love, and she started to accept love.

We started accepting love consciously, mindfully. That was a big change for both of us, and it brought a lot of pleasure to us.

****************************************

The 2nd big change was that I started doing more around the house, and my W did a lot more touching. (You would not believe the return I got from washing 4 dishes - or just putting 4 dishes into the dishwasher! )

We got into a low-key virtuous cycle. Now physical strokes is my W's 2nd highest LL, BTW.

At this point, my next goal is to thank her for her acts of service mindfully; I'm not totally there yet, but I get there some times.

I do the acts of service that I do and I acknowledge hers because I know she likes me to. I'd do it even without the payoff. Sometimes, she's so tired there's no immediate payoff, and that's OK.

ETS: Throughout our lives together, I've also supported her emotionally in her endeavors, enjoying her successes and being with her in her failures (until d-day, of course, when I moved way over to 99% 'what do I want?' side).

I can't recommend 'hearing' and 'talking' your partner's LL highly enough.

**********************************

I think all of us need to identify the factors that will tell us we are loved. I told my W explicitly what I was looking for, but I was pretty sure she was committed to R when I did. I also asked her to provide what I wanted, and she agreed.

The ask/agree part was crucial, IMO. That created a contract.

If I were unsure of my partner, I can see good arguments for not telling her explicitly what I wanted - that would make it too easy to fake, IMO.

[This message edited by sisoon at 10:04 AM, October 13th (Friday)]

These are fair questions. I was able, to some degree, to explain to her why "love" with the AP was not love, regardless of what was said. The affair was about me, about the self-hate and the emptiness inside of me, and the desperate need to fill that hole. Convincing myself (and the AP) that it was "love" was imperative, because otherwise, if it wasn't love, then I was just a horrible piece of shit. And I already felt like a horrible piece of shit in the first place. It was necessary for me to feel that my bad choices were real. Accepting otherwise was too painful to admit or deal with.

-Or perhaps if you wanted sex with the OW, saying “I love you” was the currency you had to pay. Worth thinking about.

Or, as he said in the first paragraph, he was reenacting past abuse, and this comment is hurtful and useless. Sorry, but not all affairs are about getting some, and why I usually only lurk in the "i can relate abuse forum" because DDom's situation really is different and needs to be acknowledged and understood in that light.

More than anything, I feel more able to love….

-That’s a real interesting statement.

No, this is a BEAUTIFUL statement. When you are hurt like he was, the ability to love is....dangerous. Letting himself become vulnerable enough to feel love after such tragedy is nothing more than a miracle.

I feel love in my heart for her, and I choose to love her consciously. I want her, and the love I feel for her is so great it feels overflowing sometimes, like a damn that might burst. I am fighting for her.

-Maybe she sees this new found love as guilt, to a certain extent. In other words, you’re so guilty over the betrayal you are clinging to her, and that is the basis for your love.

I'm sure there is guilt there, and the pain of causing pain to another. I am curious if ISSF feels like I do, in that, if we are the only safe ones, are you really in love, or afraid to not be with us. Do you really love us, or do you really need us?

But then again, there was the A. And even if the A didn't exist, there were all those years before that where I wasn't able to give her what she needed from me, I rejected her…

-And this is what she is fighting against. You have never really been there for her, then betrayed her, and now you’re in love with her. Not to disrespect you, but I can see why she’d be skeptical.

Yes. This is my issue too. So much hurt can be attributed to that abuse wiring needs to be healed as well. But it wasn't always like that. We got married didn't we? There were good times, right? It's just that...the abuse creeps back in, lies to us, manipulates us, and we push others away - sometimes in the worst way - because they get too close and close is pain, close is dangerous...but on good days, it is good and not scary...but then it is bad again....so the push pull cycle can be quite crazy making - and this is for decades...

I agree that love is more of a verb still when I am trying to 'receive' it. YouMeI just posted above. To me, that is love. He doesn't write on this site as words are still very hard for him. I asked him to answer this question because it is a good question - though i didn't mean he had to do it here - but he did!! And that is love because this is a scary place to him.

Love to me is touch, words, and action. MrKate shows me love in action every day. He did pre-A, during the A, and post. So some of the things he does now, were still done before, and therefore I don't see them as love, even though he does them now them with a different intent.

I saw him fight for me before, during, and after. I am a "lucky" one here in that I did see him struggle mentally during the A, so I know there is truth to some of his words. It's just that I truly believed he could never, would never betray me that way.

But part of him did. And even though I know WHY, and how, and all the science of it, that painful day broke my heart, and my brain. And it will just take a long time to heal from it.

As long as he continues to work on himself, and hear me and work to give me what I need ( and me to him), I think that is love, and I think that is what heals us. Love of self. Then love of others.

DaddyDom, I love your post. I love your words, and I love your self reflection. I have much hope that MrKate will get there too!

[This message edited by hopefulkate at 10:38 AM, October 12th (Thursday)]

DaddyDom, here is another thought to extend what I was getting at...

Just do the things you can do. Be there for her. Lend her your ear or be a shoulder for her... what ever it may be.

And, as you so well stated, be patient. My guess is that at some point in time, she will acknowledge this and reach out to you in some small way. Accept it for what it is- perhaps the start of trust and then just keep working and working at things. Perhaps she will build on things as well and someday you can tell her you love her and she won't trigger over it.

We lean into each other. We make an effort to build the marriage we want, rather than the one we had. These are no small feats, and I am still often amazed at how much she has changed and how much closer it allows us to be.

That's the good stuff.

My wife still lights up like a Christmas tree at the simplest kindness, because she keeps expecting that the pain will overrun me and I'll end up walking away. And thus, she wakes up everyday fighting to make herself and us stronger.

I know what love is not. It is not lust, fondness, respect, affection, desire, etc etc. Those are all things in and of themselves.

Love is a decision. It is a decision to place one person above all others in your life. To care for them, nuture them, honor them, respect them, be loyal to them above and beyond all others.

So when my XWW said to me she never stopped loving me even while she was lying in bed naked next to another man, I called bull. She stopped putting me first in her life, and therefore stopped loving me.

Once I realized this truth, I was able to finally be honest with myself and admit that I didn't love her any more either.

I know what love is not. It is not lust, fondness, respect, affection, desire, etc etc. Those are all things in and of themselves.

Love is a decision. It is a decision to place one person above all others in your life. To care for them, nuture them, honor them, respect them, be loyal to them above and beyond all others.

So 100% agree with this. The way I tried to explain it to my WH is that even when he was irritable and got on my nerves during his infidelities, I still put him as a high priority in my life because that's a choice I made. It isn't always easy, especially after DDay when the feelings of fondness and respect are elusive, but I do it. Feelings are not always going to be front and center in a marriage, but you still make the decisions that show love because that's the commitment you made. Feelings are cool, but they aren't even close to being sufficient for a relationship to work.

Except that that was the "love" he felt for me 7 years after his A supposedly ended...

SOS, that's the love I now believe I had for most of my 5 years with my husband. I don't think he pulled his head out of his own ass sufficiently to really love me until the last few months. I don't think he truly comprehended my individuality until I was done and he knew I was leaving.

My H and I were talking a few days ago about something A related and during the conversation, he said to me, "shellbean, you have to understand that even though I was doing this shitty, awful thing; I never, ever didn't NOT love you."

Now, as screwed up as that sounds to us BS, (you know it does and we BS question that statement constantly)...I have to tell you that when my H said that and looked me directly in the eyes while he said it, I believed him 100% and another piece of my heart was put back together.

Love is a decision. It is a decision to place one person above all others in your life. To care for them, nurture them, honor them, respect them, be loyal to them above and beyond all others.

I understand and agree. In fact, this was something we discussed recently in our Retrouvaille classes. It gives me a new way to look at love, not in the Disneyesque, happily-ever-after way, but in a real and adult sense, one based on actually commitment and responsibility in addition to the feelings and emotions involved and required.

That being said however, I will toss this thought at you, not as an argument or a judgment, just something to chew on, and to help demonstrate the complicated thought process that leads me to ask questions such as "what is love?".

One of the most important things (habits?) I've learned since the A, and in my journey to understand not only what I did, but who I am and why, is to dig deeper. (Read "Rising Strong" by Brene Brown). There is a process of always digging deeper, trying to get past the "because I wanted to" thinking that can be so convenient, and really making an effort to understand "why" I feel a given feeling, or react a certain way, or make a given decision. I freely admit this can sometimes become an endless rabbit hole, and there are many times I need to either guess or extrapolate based on the information I have. But it has been a valuable process for me and a great catalyst and motivator for change and self-understanding, and to be the best person I can be based on what I understand and on what I want.

So here are some thought-invoking questions I have. If love is a decision, then what is that decision based on? Why did you make that decision and not another one? What would change your reasoning and thus change your decision? Is it even really your decision or is it possible it was made for you (e.g. by religious doctrine, parents expectations, society)?

So yes, lust, fondness, respect, affection, these may all be feelings that have nothing to do with actually loving someone so much as a driver for wanting someone, things that represent our own desires (selfish needs).

But why do we choose to love or not love, and what is that based on? As an example, you said that you stopped loving your XWW when she chose to stop putting you first in her life (and bedded down with someone else, please don't think I'm ignoring that). So what does that mean as it pertains to your decision to stop loving her? Does it mean that you only loved her before for what she gave to you or how she made you feel? If so, does that mean that you never really loved her? Was your love based on selfish needs given that you stopped loving her based on her not putting you first? If it was based on selfish needs, then was it false love?

Or was the reason you stopped loving her because she betrayed you? Was the problem that you weren't first in her life, or was it that you were made to feel unimportant at all? And if so, was your decision to love based on a feeling? And again if so, was love really a decision or was it a feeling? Was your decision simply a consequence of her decision? If we love someone, and then stop loving them, then did love ever really exist or have any actual value to begin with?

I won't even begin to go into all the "even deeper" questions such as digging into our FOO and trying to answer all those questions based on how we were raised, how love was modeled to us, what our beliefs and ideals are and where those beliefs and ideals came from... like I said, it's a rabbit hole.

Anyway, I'm not actually asking YOU any of these questions or making any kind of statement about you personally. Rather, these are the kinds of thoughts and problems that go through my own head on a daily basis. It's painful to be honest. For almost any given thought, feeling or decision, I can drum up a path of reasoning that makes me feel that my outcomes are based on self, and just as many reasons that my outcomes are altruistic.

For example, if I donate money to charity, am I doing it because the charity is really important and I'm helping out? Or is because helping out makes me feel like I'm valuable? Can it truly be both or am I just justifying the answers to suit my own needs? If I force my daughter to clean her room, am I teaching her a valuable lesson about being responsible and acceptable in society, or am I trying to control her and force her to adopt my needs and values over her own?

Ugh. It is indeed a deep rabbit hole.

Right now, love for my wife is based on so many things, some of them based on self, and some of them based on her. Certainly, I need things (as does she and most people in general) such as companionship, friendship, affection, intimacy, protection, stability and so on. Those are undeniable needs, and clearly self-based. But I also acknowledge that she needs and deserves those very same things in life and from our marriage. Having known her better than pretty much anybody else for the past 22+ years, I can tell you that she epitomizes the very model of someone I believe has earned and deserves those very things, based on who she is and her ability and accountability in giving those same things to me, our family and others. She is an amazing person and I am lucky to simply even know her, let alone be part of her life and worthy of her love. Despite my own brokenness and my sins against her, I still firmly believe that I am the best person to love her, to provide what she needs from a life partner, and I work hard every day to try make sure that I am the best person I can be, because she deserves no less. (And it is the right thing to do for my family and me as well.)

As you said, love is a decision. I will add that it is also an action, a job, a responsibility, once that decision is made. While a relationship cannot be one-sided, love can be. I can love her to the best of my ability even if she is unwilling or unable to accept that love from me at this time. I can love her whether we R or D. She has chosen to love me, even though I clearly do not deserve such a gift. But I want to become the person that deserves that love, the person I should have been all along, the person I was too damn broken to be before, and I won't stop until I achieve that. (Which is a lifelong effort.)

(Sorry for the book. I write too damn much.)

Dom,

Can you live with it if your wife can never receive an answer regarding the authenticity or meaning or your love for her and believe it?

One of the things I had to come to terms with after my wife's affair (it was 2 years -- and this is one of those times where I think length does matter) was that I had been in a marriage for two solid years where my wife stabbed me in the back on a daily basis. Now, I knew something was off. I knew the marriage was struggling...but I believed that at the bottom of it, she still loved me, and if she was so pissed/uninvested/whatever, it must be because I was a shitty husband who didn't know how to reach her. (I didn't have the Love Language terminology at that point, or I would have tried the shit out of that, too. )

Then D-Day happens and all the pegs fall into place and I started to understand that I'd been misapprehending the dynamics of my marriage for a couple of years. And then I started to do the standard disengaging and protecting myself, and building fortresses around my heart (blah, blah, blah).

Meaning, I'd gone on convincing myself that she loved me (as a default position) in complete absence of evidence of that fact. I believed that she loved me because I loved her.

Now I know better.

Now I know that the fact that I love her doesn't mean reciprocity. Now I know that what I'm told and even what's being done for/towards me in the name of love can be just a big fake to throw me off the scent. Now I know that just because you tell me you love me or even feel legitimate affection for me doesn't mean that you're not simultaneously acting in ways that are actively destructive to me (as long as I don't find out the truth, etc., etc.)

And I can live with that and still be happily married. I can love unilaterally and not have to believe that my wife understands love in the same way that I do or even that any particular loving thing she does for/towards me means anything outside of the act itself. It's a discrete moment in time. A thing that brought me pleasure...but that doesn't mean there's a broad, authentic, universal, reliable meaning beyond that.

My wife does not act unloving toward me. That would be a deal breaker at this phase of our relationship. She doesn't actively try to harm me or make me feel bad/stupid/angry/frustrated.

That's sufficient for me. That's all I need out of the relationship. It is love with wariness. It is love with scarred memory. It is love that is expensive, sometimes hurtful, and fraught with peril.

It is love enough.

Can you live with a marriage where your wife feels your love enough, but has no need to ever believe it fully?

ETA: Sorry, I posted simultaneous with you. You may have already dealt with these questions in your response. If so, feel free to ignore.

[This message edited by wincing_at_light at 2:34 PM, October 12th (Thursday)]

YouMeI,

We share so much in common brother. All that abuse in our pasts is the basis for a lot of fucked up decision making and coping skills, and it can be very hard to explain to someone who hasn't been through all of that, no matter how empathetic they may be, why we react the way we do. Abuse tears the brain apart (as well as the heart and soul). Typical people have nice, clean wiring in their brains that makes sense in most cases, and logic progresses in a very a-b-c fashion. The abuse destroys that for us however. Our wiring looks like someone took a can of paint and threw it at the wall. It's just a scattered mess, something that resembles a logical process but is critically broken in ways that even we can't hope to explain sometimes. Why does A + 2 = screwdriver? I dunno, but sometimes it does. I remember at one point, I was telling my wife that in order to try and understand some of my thoughts or what happened, that she needs to let go of trying to have it make sense, that you can't make sense of delusional and broken thinking. Once you let go of "sense" and accept it for what it is, then it all comes together.

Like you, I have some alter egos that like to tag along and take over now and then. They are very 2-dimensional characters, usually only capable of a few, limited but intense emotions and thinking patterns. "Little boy" lives in fear and panic and is always scared. He feels guilty about everything, even things he himself did not do, because he internalizes all abuse and pain to the point where it becomes his own reality. But he is also the most loving and pure of heart, unable to hurt a fly, loyal and honest to a fault, just usually too scared to crawl out from under his covers and face the monster under his bed. If I could get rid of the fear, Little Boy is my hero and who I want to be.

"Sixteen" is the teenager and the protector. He is angry. He has no fear and nothing to lose. He protects Little Boy and he protects those who he deems worthy (family, friends) or needing of a champion, but he hates himself and he hates the world. He is not evil, but he can be bad. He seeks to punish himself because he knows who and what he is and feels worthless and ugly. He wants to punish those who refused to understand or protect him (Little Boy). He seeks to punish the world simply because no one ever gave a damn about him. He doesn't see himself as an abuser, but he is clearly one. I can't imagine what would happen if he could see himself through Little Boy's eyes? He is an addict because the pain of the abuse he suffered is too great to bear, so he drowns it out however he can, with painkillers, with endorphins, with anger, with abuse. His lack of fear and protective nature make him my greatest asset and provide me with strength I wouldn't otherwise have, even the strength to change. His "fuck you" attitude and anger however make him dangerous.

Just a thought, but several times in these threads, people have mentioned the question/topic of "Did you love me when you were betraying me?" That's a harder question to answer when there are several "me's" involved. Ultimately however, we must take responsibility for all of our me's, for they are all us in some way. "16" may have been driving the bus at the time of the A, but "Adult" me has to pick up the pieces, because the damage is real, and the change must happen. No matter which me it was, is was still me.

I am glad that your wife helps all of you merge. My wife has been nothing short of amazing and instrumental in helping me to examine and understand myself, and has even learned to love all of me, even "16". If she didn't, I'm not sure that I ever would have been able to heal or even understand myself to the extent that I do today.

I still wish you lived closer. If so, you and I (a.k.a. The 7 of us) could go out for coffee. :)

hopefulkate,

Thank you for defending me and for seeing me as anything less than a POS. You've been a true friend and have helped both my wife and I through many minefields, especially when it comes to understanding ego states, and in helping her to find the beauty even in egos like "16". She has told me that she loves all of me, and counts on all of me to pull through this and help me become the man I want (and need) to be. You helped her get there.

Knowing that you are proud of me means a lot to me, so thank you. You know you are always welcome and appreciated by us both.

DaddyDom,

All that abuse in our pasts is the basis for a lot of fucked up decision making and coping skills, and it can be very hard to explain to someone who hasn't been through all of that, no matter how empathetic they may be, why we react the way we do. Abuse tears the brain apart (as well as the heart and soul). Typical people have nice, clean wiring in their brains that makes sense in most cases, and logic progresses in a very a-b-c fashion. The abuse destroys that for us however. Our wiring looks like someone took a can of paint and threw it at the wall. It's just a scattered mess, something that resembles a logical process but is critically broken in ways that even we can't hope to explain sometimes. Why does A + 2 = screwdriver? I dunno, but sometimes it does. I remember at one point, I was telling my wife that in order to try and understand some of my thoughts or what happened, that she needs to let go of trying to have it make sense, that you can't make sense of delusional and broken thinking. Once you let go of "sense" and accept it for what it is, then it all comes together.

I have some concept of this, being a broken and abused thing myself. I was raped when I was 16 by a friend, and my reaction was to become quite promiscuous and seduce guys for years because in my head, I was taking sex back and not letting him win. I never really healed from that. So I find out that my husband cheated on me, and that very day I go out and sleep with another man. I can't help but think that my trauma had something to do with that being my immediate reaction. When I did that, I did not love my husband. I didn't love me, him, the rest of the world. I was a broken thing. I hurt him badly right back.

As much as I can understand trauma expressing itself sexually, it hasn't lessened the pain one bit on my part. It still leaves the bottom line where I know that I can become nothing to my husband. Yes, he can become nothing to me too if he hurts me badly enough, apparently.