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My wife and I had an interesting discussion this morning about love. We've been doing pretty well in R and both of us have been working hard on ourselves and our relationship, making changes in who we are and who we want to be, rebuilding our marriage brick by brick. It's hard work but overall we both feel that we have a more honest and authentic relationship now, and are learning about ourselves and fixing our respective FOO issues.

When I say "I love you" to my wife, it seems to wound her, or at least give her pause. This morning she asked me, "How do I know you love me? You used to tell me you loved me, but then you betrayed me, and you told the AP you loved her, so how am I supposed to believe you now? Even if you're sincere, how do I know that you even know what love is?"

These are fair questions. I was able, to some degree, to explain to her why "love" with the AP was not love, regardless of what was said. The affair was about me, about the self-hate and the emptiness inside of me, and the desperate need to fill that hole. Convincing myself (and the AP) that it was "love" was imperative, because otherwise, if it wasn't love, then I was just a horrible piece of shit. And I already felt like a horrible piece of shit in the first place. It was necessary for me to feel that my bad choices were real. Accepting otherwise was too painful to admit or deal with.

Anyway, while I'm able to explain why love was not love with the AP, explaining why love IS love with my wife is harder to put into words that will convince my wife's heart that it is true. There is no explanation that "makes everything okay" of course. Regardless of whether I loved the AP or not there is no denying that I betrayed my wife and that she got hurt, and that my actions were not based on my love for my wife.

I grew up in an environment of horrible FOO issues that included abuse, neglect, sadism, lack of protection, a narcissistic mother, absent father and other atrocities. For me, love and sex and relationships were not based on selflessness, empathy or caring, they based on being used, as well as pleasing and manipulating others. This is not to say that I don't know what love is, I grew up seeing love in media and in other people like everyone else, and I saw in those things what love was supposed to look and feel like. But I also lived in a world where no one else was going to love or protect me, so I had watch out for myself. I was able to love, but not to be completely authentic and vulnerable, or to sacrifice for others (sometimes I could, but always within limits).

Since the A, I've been working very hard on myself. I've learned to start looking inward and seeing my true self, the parts that are broken, and taking clear and decisive steps to be a better person, to learn to love myself, to love others, to be honest and authentic and responsible. These are changes that affect my entire being, who I am and how I feel and think. It affects all the relationships in my life, not just my marriage. It affects how I feel about myself and how others react to me. It is amazing, and while I absolutely hate what it took to get me to this point of seeing myself and making changes, all I can tell you is that I am grateful to feel the burden of the horrors of my childhood leaving me as I begin to deal with them, and seeing the positive changes in the people around me. Sometimes it is hard being honest and authentic, sometimes it means owning up to things that don't make other people happy. But it also means I no longer need to lie or manipulate others, and I don't fall apart when a disagreement happens.

More than anything, I feel more able to love, because I am no longer afraid of being hurt or of not being accepted or loved back. I can feel love for what it is, caring about another person, having their best interests in my heart, appreciating their truth and authenticity without regard for whether or not they feel the same way back, or what I do or do not get from the relationship. I can appreciate the beauty inside of them, who they are, and not feel that my love is necessitated on what they can get from me or what I can do for them. Learning to love myself means that my love comes from within, not from without, so I can choose to love freely by being responsible for my own happiness and meaning. I love my wife because I am amazed at who she is, her strength, her beauty, her ability to fight for what she believes in, her overwhelming capacity for selfless love and for her ability to forgive others. I love her because of all the time and effort and care we have put into our relationship over 20+ years, the family we have built, the home we have made, everything. We have experienced joy and faced loss, we have created life and lost the lives of others, we have been there for each other in times of our greatest need, and we've been there for each other when there was no need at all, except to improve the lives of each other and to develop love and friendship and family. I feel love in my heart for her, and I choose to love her consciously. I want her, and the love I feel for her is so great it feels overflowing sometimes, like a damn that might burst. I am fighting for her. I am changing myself and in doing so, able to be an authentic partner with my eyes and my heart wide open.

But then again, there was the A. And even if the A didn't exist, there were all those years before that where I wasn't able to give her what she needed from me, I rejected her, I worried about myself before her, I slipped into a marriage coma and stopped leaning into her. We were like a married couple on TV, going through the motions but with no real meaning behind the actions. Even without the A, she is hurt and resentful of that time, and she should be. I wasn't there for her and it damaged her. It is one thing to say, "But I'm here for you now and I'm waiting and willing to give you everything I should have given you in the first place". That's all well and good, but is it too late? That's the question. How do I show her that my love is real? How do I help her accept what was, so that she can accept what is?

I'm curious, those of you who have successfully R'd or at least feel like you are solidly on the R path, how would you answer this question? If you are a BS, how did you come to believe that your WS truly loves you again? (Enough to allow yourself to be vulnerable enough to love them back?) If you are a WS, how do you see love and how are you sure that you are able to love after betraying your spouse? I ask all this with the understanding that there are no guarantees and no "blind trust" anymore. Still, if M is to survive, then there must be love.

When you realize you want to spend the rest of your life with somebody, you want the rest of your life to start as soon as possible. - When Harry Met Sally (Nora Ephron quote)

I am being patient. I know that my wife must process this at her own pace, and that I cannot rush that pace. She may feel differently tomorrow, or a year from now, or never. As the quote above says however (and this is one of my fav quotes), with my new found ability to be someone authentic, to open my heart and embrace both her and myself in honesty, I find myself wanting to not let this time get away from us. We have wasted so much of our marriage with our eyes shut and not getting what we needed from each other. This is a second chance, not just for me, but for us. She deserves from me all that I took from her or was unable to give her in the first place. It will take a lifetime to make it all up to her, with interest, and I want to be able to give her that love and companionship that she deserved from me all these years.

My wife and I just had a similar conversation a couple of nights ago. It was one of the things that has been bothering me for a While. Shortly after D-day, I got the ILYBINILWY speech, sort of. What I got was the "I've never really loved you" version. Because that w as one thing that had yet to be truly addressed, it was a hurdle for me in not only accepting her words at face value, but in also believing them when she now says "I love you."

Many times, I have held back even saying those words myself. I know that I do love her. The whole "would you die for her" chivalry question could be answered in the affirmative. But, I have held back the expression. When she says it to me, I generally respond with a "you too". Why?

It was because that part, the "I've never really loved you" part hadn't been addressed. How could someone say those 3 words thousands of times in almost 30 years and then deny ever meaning it once? That was my hurdle.

In addressing this, the answer if it was a full on surprise. She had to tell herself that to not feel the pain of what she was doing (pre D-day) or the pain of what she had done (post D-day).

I see it in her actions. But How do list myself feel it? That is taking some work with my IC. I am learning to release the bubble I've put my heart into in order to trust that her loving actions really do mean what I think they mean.

It's hard. It's about going against the protective shell right now. But I am learning that it is also worth it.

Replied to the wrong thread.

[This message edited by EmbraceTheChange at 2:28 PM, October 11th (Wednesday)]

This is a tough one, DaddyDom. I know I'm new in this process, but I identify with your wife's questions. It took a while to get my WH to come to terms with the reality that he did not love me during his infidelities. I became home-base, a security blanket, almost a mother figure instead of his lover and wife. His love for me was based on what I could do for him and how I made him feel. So the only way that I sometimes believe that he truly loves me now is when his actions show it. When he does something purely for me and somehow sacrifices to do so, that looks more like love. He told me many hundreds of times during the year he was cheating that he loved me, I was his soul-mate, etc. He didn't act that way, though. Now he does. So I kind of believe him, but it will take a lot more time to be sure.

One of the things I'm discovering that makes me a bit sad is that in order to R, the BS must detach some from their WS and become emotionally independent enough to leave if it becomes necessary. It's a self-protection mode that enables us to make smarter decisions and be more aware of who our spouse is. We have to really "see" them and evaluate what we truly mean to them because we've been shown that we can mean very little in certain circumstances.

So you're going to be under a microscope for quite a while. You truly do love her, but she will be unable to trust that for a time. If she's anything like me, she's thinking that this new you is nice, but how long will it be before it wears off and everything goes back to what it was before? Once the fear of losing us wears off, what keeps the motivation to love us properly going? You and my WH stepped outside the marriage and wounded us as no one else could and the fear is that once you feel confident that you have us back emotionally, what stops it from happening again? Are the changes permanent?

Well, there are certainly different kinds of love, conditional to unconditional. My wife was certain she was never to going to leave the marriage, she thought she loved me through the whole horrible thing.

And so, I've heard of different stages that I agree with. Young love or immature love is more about what you can get from the other person and that's the focus. Mature love is when your focus is what you can give to the other person, that their needs are as or more important than yours (the healthy, balanced relationship version, not co-d put them first, enabling stuff).

These days, after a betrayal, it is all verb. Show me, don't tell me.

Actions, actions, actions...

After 16-months of consistent showing me, I believe her when she says the words.

I'm curious, those of you who have successfully R'd or at least feel like you are solidly on the R path, how would you answer this question? If you are a BS, how did you come to believe that your WS truly loves you again?

While it useful to have the types of discussions you had with your wife, without a clear definition on the meaning of love, the discussions can become a bit like arguing "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin".

The book that best helped me to actually define what is meant by "Love" is: The Road Less Traveled, Timeless Edition: A New Psychology of Love, Traditional Values and Spiritual Growth by M. Scott Peck. After reading this book, I became less concerned about which varying degrees of love my FWW had for OM versus myself. One of the best quotes from the book on the definition of love that still sticks with me is: I define love thus: The will to extend one's self for the purpose of nurturing one's own or another's spiritual growth. Based on this definition, during your affair, who's spiritual growth were you nurturing? Also, what Oldwounds pointed out bears repeating:

These days, after a betrayal, it is all verb. Show me, don't tell me.

During my R, after figuring out what love really meant, I turned my attention to improving the relationship. In other words, how could I best put my "love" into action, rather than constantly rehashing the past. The next question became, what actually makes a good relationship. If love was not the sole answer, than what are the key factors? I read several relationship books, but the one that worked best for me was: The Secrets of Happily Married Men: Eight Ways to Win Your Wife's Heart by Scott Haltzman

[This message edited by HardenMyHeart at 3:40 PM, October 11th (Wednesday)]

CaptainRodgers,

ILYBINILWY is a tough talk to have, and an even tougher one to get out of your headspace. While I can't speak for your wife, I would suggest taking a slightly different paradigm on the phrase. Especially when in the midst of an A, WS's are so devoid of self-love (or let's turn that on its head and just label it as full of self-hate) that to love anyone else is impossible. Im-fucking-possible. I wasn't even able to love my children properly during the A because my head my heart were in such a dark and scary place, and I have always loved my children fiercely up until then. Imagine what it would take for you to put yourself or some other woman before the love of your children? I know, I know. It is likely impossible for you to imagine such a thing could happen, period, regardless of how you felt. But still, go ahead imagine it anyway. How amazingly affected would you have to be? The answer to that should scare the living shit out of you. And it should. And THAT is what your wife was likely feeling. At least, that's how it was for me, and I think most WS's, once they really get down to it, felt the same. My wife actually told me I wasn't even me, that I was someone else (at the time), and I agreed completely.

Anyway, back to my point. Your wife spoke the truth to you when she said ILYBINILWY but she left out the part where she was incapable of love, even for herself. So while it's easier to say than do, try not to see that as a failing on your part or a statement of hate on hers. She could have sooner grown wings and started to fly than to love anyone at the time. I hope she is in a better mindset now. Or a better soulset (not a word, but I'm using it).

You are a beautiful person with a beautiful soul that is worthy of love. I know you loved her even when she was saying those words to you and unable to return the love you were feeling for and giving to her.

Letting that wall down is what it is all about. I know that's hard to do when the last time you let that happen, you barely survived the outcome. "Fool me once..." and all. That is the same struggle my wife has. She clearly loves me. She shows me that every moment of every day. And I believe in time that the walls will come down. They just come down very slowly, and tend to raise up again when things like triggers happen.

The next question became, what actually makes a good relationship.

I'm with you. Hopefully I didn't imply it was only me demanding my wife do all of the actions or showing me love. She did have to take the lead on -- love. After offering R, and I felt okay about our chances, I have addressed issues to make me a better partner too.

As always, it takes both people to be all in to rebuild into a marriage we want to be in.

One of the things I'm discovering that makes me a bit sad is that in order to R, the BS must detach some from their WS and become emotionally independent enough to leave if it becomes necessary. It's a self-protection mode that enables us to make smarter decisions and be more aware of who our spouse is. We have to really "see" them and evaluate what we truly mean to them because we've been shown that we can mean very little in certain circumstances.

If she's anything like me, she's thinking that this new you is nice, but how long will it be before it wears off and everything goes back to what it was before? Once the fear of losing us wears off, what keeps the motivation to love us properly going? You and my WH stepped outside the marriage and wounded us as no one else could and the fear is that once you feel confident that you have us back emotionally, what stops it from happening again? Are the changes permanent?

Yeah. This. ^^^

I think you hit the nail on the head here. It's a sad dichotomy. I agree that, for now, (but I hope not for always) she may feel the need to keep one foot out the door in order to feel safe. There are days when she is more open to love, to affection. She's even told me she loves me before I've said it to her. And then there are times that I tell her I love her and this look of fear, sadness and pain comes across her face. I think the words can feel like a slap across the face sometimes, sort of like having someone take a crap on your head and then having them tell you they really respect you. I think she wants to love me, and she wants to be loved by me, but even so, it's just too damn scary.

DaddyDom, my wife was definitely not who she had been for 20+ years in the time leading up to and during her EA. Towards me: stoic, stone-faced and completely emotionally void. Towards the kids: quick with the fuse, harsh, even sarcastic at times. Definitely not the person I really ever knew.

She is totally different now. Softer. More introspective. More in tune with her emotions (which sounds strange when describing a female).

So, yes, even though it really wasn't the personive always known who did this to our relationship, I am finding that I have to be quite intentional about receiving the loving acts from her now. I have no problem expressing my love to her. It's just hard to allow myself to actually receive it.

I appreciate the kind words as well. Keep healing on your end as well. I'm excited to see the how the rest of your story with your wife plays out & grows into what you both want.

These days, after a betrayal, it is all verb. Show me, don't tell me.

Actions, actions, actions...

Yup. She's said that to me all along. For a while after D-Day she kept telling me that my words were meaningless. It was hard to hear that at the time, but I know it to be true, and over time, I had to make sure that my actions spoke volumes more than my words. If they hadn't, we wouldn't still be in R right now.

I know there aren't any magic words or actions that will make things better. And to be honest with you, even that is what I consider to be wayward thinking, because it would indicate a desire to either control the outcome or manipulate her feelings. Neither of which is good.

Part of what I need to explore and to verify is that I truly understand what love is and how it is shown (given that my background didn't include such things) and the other part is to understand the damage done to her ability to love and be loved. I know I damaged her heart. It was the emotional equivalent of a heart attack, and her heart is weakened now. It can't take another attack like that. It is my role now to become the protector, rather than the abuser, of her heart. It's a precarious position however, given that I was the one who did the damage in the first place. How do you rely on your attacker to be your defender? It's like Game of Thrones in real life.

I think you hit the nail on the head here. It's a sad dichotomy. I agree that, for now, (but I hope not for always) she may feel the need to keep one foot out the door in order to feel safe. There are days when she is more open to love, to affection. She's even told me she loves me before I've said it to her. And then there are times that I tell her I love her and this look of fear, sadness and pain comes across her face. I think the words can feel like a slap across the face sometimes, sort of like having someone take a crap on your head and then having them tell you they really respect you. I think she wants to love me, and she wants to be loved by me, but even so, it's just too damn scary.

Yeah, your analogy is pretty good. The tragedy in all this is that I don't think most have any concept of how permanently they've damaged themselves and their spouses before it all comes to light and then it's too late to take it back. You're left with a bunch of broken pieces to put back together, both of you. Your wife no doubt really does want to feel safe again. That's the hardest part to me. I lost my safe place. I lost home base. It's kind of like being a bunny in the forest, always alert for predators and never able to just relax and feel secure. I want that feeling back so badly I can taste it. I'm just not capable of it now. I'm trying to figure out how to get there within myself and once I can do that, maybe I can include my husband in that safe circle one day if he proves to me that he's long-term serious about being a loyal husband.

That she is still with you is a BIG DEAL. I know beyond a doubt that had I left my WH, I'd have my own home and I'd have a safe place to heal my heart and mind in. By staying, I have to heal my heart and mind alongside the person who shattered it. I have to figure out how to create a safe place for me in that environment. And my husband is doing all the right things right now. I was preparing to leave before he started doing the real work because I wanted that sense of safety back so badly.

Love keeps her with you. Love keeps me with my husband. I'm glad you see that and appreciate how huge it is, to be loved like that.

HardenMyHeart,

Thank you for the book recommendations. I will add them to my (ever growing) reading list. I agree that having a clear perspective of love could help. I also know that putting a label on love is nigh impossible. Some of the things I've done that have moved her the most are things I never in a million years would have predicted as being something that would move her. Then again, I guess that's the point. Love isn't something you feel, or something you do, it is something that you just are. When you truly love someone, then the proper words and actions follow naturally.

Still, having some perspective helps. I believe that you can truly love someone and still be broken, rendering you incapable of stepping outside of yourself enough to let that love out. And that's a problem. Which is why R (for the WS anyway) starts with the WS fixing themselves. If they don't, then you can't move forward.

Part of what I need to explore and to verify is that I truly understand what love is and how it is shown (given that my background didn't include such things) and the other part is to understand the damage done to her ability to love and be loved. I know I damaged her heart. It was the emotional equivalent of a heart attack, and her heart is weakened now. It can't take another attack like that. It is my role now to become the protector, rather than the abuser, of her heart. It's a precarious position however, given that I was the one who did the damage in the first place. How do you rely on your attacker to be your defender? It's like Game of Thrones in real life.

Part of why she wants to see action is that love is as much action as anything. You love a song, you download it. You love your car, you change the oil. You love your dog, you pet him often and keep vet appointments. You love your spouse, you do kind things for them and put their wants and needs as a priority in your life. Anyone can say that they love someone, but it doesn't matter without actions. If I say I love my grandmother but never bother to call or visit her, what does it matter if I love her? It's no better than indifference.

Hey, at least she didn't do what I did and make it more complicated. I had an RA, so I have the responsibility to help heal his pain as he helps to heal mine. He gave me a heart attack and I shot him one right back. I no more expect him to heal quickly from mine than he expects me to heal quickly from his. Neither of us can handle another attack like that. You are almost certainly right that there are no third chances after damage like that. I know there aren't for me. One more and I'd be out the door and probably settle for getting a couple more Chihuahuas for companionship, lol.

Still, having some perspective helps. I believe that you can truly love someone and still be broken, rendering you incapable of stepping outside of yourself enough to let that love out. And that's a problem. Which is why R (for the WS anyway) starts with the WS fixing themselves. If they don't, then you can't move forward.

Perhaps. I think love can be impossible to feel in certain circumstances. I didn't love me, my husband, life, anything when I had my RA. I loved him the day before and the day after, but not on DDay. I couldn't feel, period.

After offering R, and I felt okay about our chances, I have addressed issues to make me a better partner too.

This is where she's at too, and it is a beautiful thing to watch. I've talked about the changes I needed to make, but I haven't given her credit for the changes and sacrifices she's made. Simply not kicking my ass out the door is a huge sacrifice for her, and no less scary or dangerous than standing on the tracks with a train coming. I don't ever want to take that gift for granted, and I also want to put as much space between her and that train as possible. I'd prefer she be off the tracks altogether, but when she's ready for that.

She's done a lot of work on herself. She was raised in a very loving home but with a very strict and harsh father who felt he was always right and refused to consider any viewpoints other than his own. Doing something wrong (in his opinion) resulted in a verbal lashing that tended to last long past the point where tears were shed. He had to demolish her as well as admonish her. No one was allowed to criticize him.

Ever since D-day, she has changed. Those traits that she picked up from her father started to disappear. Now, she is calmer. She listens rather than responding. She understands rather than attacks. She reflects rather than judging. Together, we have learned to be honest and open, we talk about feelings even when it's hard to do so. We lean into each other. We make an effort to build the marriage we want, rather than the one we had. These are no small feats, and I am still often amazed at how much she has changed and how much closer it allows us to be.

You've reminded me that I need to tell her these things. That's still one my weaknesses that I'm working on improving. I feel things very strongly, and I often forget that my feelings can't be heard unless I utter them as words. Affirmation means a lot to her and she certainly deserves it.

That she is still with you is a BIG DEAL. I know beyond a doubt that had I left my WH, I'd have my own home and I'd have a safe place to heal my heart and mind in. By staying, I have to heal my heart and mind alongside the person who shattered it. I have to figure out how to create a safe place for me in that environment. And my husband is doing all the right things right now. I was preparing to leave before he started doing the real work because I wanted that sense of safety back so badly.

Love keeps her with you. Love keeps me with my husband. I'm glad you see that and appreciate how huge it is, to be loved like that.

And as you've stated, THAT is showing love versus simply loving. She's never stopped and said, "The only reason I didn't kick you to the curb is because I love you" but the message still comes through loud and clear.

The thing about an affair (and this she HAS said to me many times) is that the relationship is lopsided afterward. For example, it's easier for me to "hear" what she is saying through her actions because she never really hurt me to begin with. The reverse is not true. The A acts like a set of earplugs. So it's not that she can't hear me when I speak with my actions, but I have to put all the more effort and consistency into my actions so that she can hear me over the plugs I put in there previously. Fortunately, not all actions require shouting. Sometimes the smallest whisper comes through loud and clear if it's the right one. She's been very wonderful about listening to my actions, and responding in kind as much as she can.

The A acts like a set of earplugs. So it's not that she can't hear me when I speak with my actions, but I have to put all the more effort and consistency into my actions so that she can hear me over the plugs I put in there previously.

Yes! You get it.

Complete t/j here, I've been holding this in all day (unlike NtV) but I just have to ask...

Did anyone else immediately go here when they read the title?

[This message edited by CaptainRogers at 8:43 PM, October 11th (Wednesday)]

My BS is convinced that I neither know what love is and don't possess the ability to show or share with her. I speak many fine words, but without action, I may as well be speaking a different language.

Early on she asked me what I loved about her. My reply was I love the way you make me feel. Pure selfish. She doesn't feel any from me. And I caused that to happen.