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Hi, Walloped, I am praying for you, your wife, and family this weekend.

In addition to all the wonderful counsel you've been given here, I want to offer that spiritual guidance may help you (and your wife), too. The greatest gift I got from my ordeal (and there are many) is a much stronger--indeed, now essential--relationship with God. I think there are Christian IC counselors out there; maybe one might help?

There is a little tiny book called God's Psychiatry, by Charles Allen, that is interesting. Allen "prescribes" that his clients "carefully, meditatively, and prayerfully," read each phrase of the 23rd Psalm five times a day for seven days, to start working changes in our lives. He says reading it five times all at once in a day won't work; he wants it spread out (akin to antibiotics--taking all the daily pills at once doesn't work.)

The goal is to change the pattern of thinking. From the book,

Ralph Waldo Emerson said, "A man is what he thinks about all day long." Marcus Aurelius said, "A man's life is what his thoughts make it." Norman Vincent Peale says, "Change your thoughts and you change your world." The Bible says, "For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he." (Proverbs 23:7).

I believe your wife may perhaps be in more need of this right now, than you.

Allen also talks about the Ten Commandments. On the section re the Seventh - Thou Shalt Not Commit Aldultery, he refers to a Morris Wee (I don't know who that is) who deems that violation of this commandment is the source of about 50% of all human misery (!) Before my experience, I wouldn't have believed that. I do now. Here's a quote in the book re this Commandment:

It is wrong (also) because it brings further wrong. A wound in the mind is like a wound in the body. Cut a finger and it won't hurt much, but if the cut becomes infected the infection will get into the blood stream, course through the body and eventually kill one. Sorrow is a wound. It cuts deeply and hurts terribly, but it is a clean wound and, unless bitterness, resentment, or self-pity gets into the wound, it will heal. But when I do wrong the result of which is an unclean wound, it will not heal. It robs me of my peace of mind, it makes my conscience hurt, it distorts my thinking, it sets up conflicts in me, it weakens my will power, it destroys my soul. (italics mine)

Seems appropriate to end with the 23rd Psalm:

The Lord is my shepherd: I shall not want.

In verdant pastures He gives me repose; beside restful waters He leads me; He refreshes my soul (bold mine).

He guides me in right paths for His name's sake.

Even though I walk through the dark valley, I fear no evil; for You are at my side with your rod and your staff that give me courage.

You spread the table before me in the sight of my foes; You anoint my head with oil; my cup overflows.

Only goodness and kindness follow me all the days of my life; and I shall dwell in the house of the Lord for years to come.

As with every post here, take what works for you and leave the rest.

Blessings, LA

[This message edited by livinganew at 10:16 AM, August 15th (Saturday)]

Additional thoughts regarding an IC... Run away from any IC--Christian or otherwise--who advocates "rug sweeping" forgiveness. (Especially for your wife, who might glom on to such an IC because it'd be so much easier for HER.) True forgiveness only comes after FULL TRUTH. Your forgiveness is meaningless if you don't know what you're forgiving.

Forgiveness, too, is different from D or R. It's possible to forgive and still be unable to R. I am still working on forgiveness with my XWW. I pray for His help in that, as I know I can't do that on my own.

But I will get there--for my sake. Staying bitter at my XW accomplishes worse than nothing... It's like my drinking poison and expecting her to die.

Blessings, LA

Livinganew

I don't think you have to worry about walloped "rug sweeping" his wife's affair.

I'm sure he is having breakfast with the boys right now and looking at all the jobs being posted in the paper that his wife can apply for.

Her SAHM status needs to be revoked.

Hopefully he is taking a deep breath, keeping his head above the water and slowing his heart rate down to a healthy pace.

Because infidelity is never sorted out in days or weeks.

And stay away from the poison. Your WS sounds rotten to the core and probably drinks poison at every meal

The best revenge is to live well. And love your children.

HM

[This message edited by happyman64 at 10:42 AM, August 15th (Saturday)]

Thanks, happyman... Indeed, I was probably stating the obvious.

My thoughts on "rug sweeping" emanated from my experience that my XW got that advice after DDay, which extinguished whatever puny chance there was at R for us. I sometimes wonder what might have been in the alternative; there is still some pain there. And that's okay; it is what it is. I accept and embrace it; means I have more growth ahead.

I agree it is best to live well--whether D or R. This whole experience pointed me to deeper FOO issues I thought I'd resolved long ago, that still need(ed) my attention and work. Addressing them has been an important building block for my new life, too.

Cheers, LA

Walloped--hi. I just wanted to chime in since I caught up on your thread today.

First off, I think that you sound like a really stand up man. A man that many, many women would be thrilled to be married to.

Second, I think that your wife is, sadly, very typical. I have been on here almost 3 years and it is so cliche. Which just points out that, to a certain extent, we are "victims" of human nature. I put victims in quotes because obviously we have choices, and those of us with strong moral codes and integrity typically manage to make the tough ones correctly. However, we are still human, and many, many people, given the wrong confluence of circumstances can make really horrible choices, assisted by an element of human nature that is so strong that I have named it. I call it "Catlover's Law" and that is that the second strongest impulse in human nature IMO (after maternal/paternal instinct) is the impulse to rationalize choices that we believe to be in our best interest. You can look at evil across history and culture and see this at work. So, when someone compliments us, we start to rationalize that our husband is controlling, etc. Pretty soon we are convinced we "deserve" whatever bad behavior the better part of ourselves knows is wrong. Then, when we are caught out, and our better nature reasserts itself we are FLOORED at what we were capable of.

I believe this is where your wife is. She has been forced to confront all the bullshit she has been feeding herself and the POS and she is appalled. She is face to face with the horrible damage she has caused and for so, so little cause. Of course she is horrified, because I suspect she really is a decent person. It is really, really hard to face this and admit that your thinking is so very very wrong. Our natural self protective instincts fight this strongly. So when she was arguing with her sister initially this was in play (I can't just be a selfish bitch who was played; this MUST have been more than that!). Then when she was called a whore by the OBS her defenses shattered. Yikes. That's harsh. But completely necessary if there is a chance for reconciliation.

I think that she has a decent chance to get there if that is what you ultimately want. That, of course, is up to you. But I do believe in the power of redemption and am happily in reconciliation with a H who faced himself and changed in every way that I needed him to.

Finally, as per a previous question you posed, I have also felt shame over being betrayed. I was always a much better wife than he was a husband, but still some people assumed "must not be happy at home". Ironically he was happy, loved the life and home that I worked so hard to create, but was just broken enough to indulge his brokenness and risk everything. I know it's not my fault and he never blamed me in any way, but I have been choosey who I told. So, I get it.

Keep up the fight; you will get there one way or another.

Well, that sounds like you had one hell of a talk.

There will be many more, that is for sure. You have deep wounds that are not even remotely healed. It will take a lot of time for you to get your mind wrapped around this to a point of acceptance. Give it months.

Years maybe. At best. Maybe never.

Understand that this is going to be very hard for you to see your wife the same way as you did before. Your marriage and the memories about your wife being perfect are going to be a major part of your days now. Before, you didnt think of these things for a minute out of a day. Now they will consume a large part of you. If you want to reconcile with your wife, understand that you will invest more time into this than you have invested into anything. Including your first days together before you were married. It was easy to be with her then. Not so much now.

It will demand a lot of you and in the end may hurt you. If you are willing, you need to ask yourself if you think your wife is willing to do what is needed as well.

I wish you luck and it looks like you might have a good start on your journey.

Well Walloped, I think this sounds like true remorse. Like she is starting to "own her shit". (Btw--I used to almost never swear; that changed immediately after Dday!). I think that her telling you about her mindset, even though it reflected badly on her, is really big.

And it's normal for the BS to not factor into the equation. My H said the same thing. He wasn't thinking about me at the time; In fact in his case he said he felt like a different person. (And he has the completely fucked up FOO to make this believable). And while that's very painful to hear, it's a bit better, IMO, than having us in their thoughts the whole time and still doing it. It goes back to the mental gymnastics I mentioned in my earlier post.

You both seem to be progressing very quickly through this. I will caution, as you have heard and experienced, about the roller coaster, but I think was was a positive step for your WW.

Best to you.

he told her he loved her and lavished attention on her, told her how impressed with her he was, said all these things over and over. And she bought into it and craved it and then she found out none of it was true and that she threw her life away for nothing and she couldn't handle that. And then the more she thought about it and the more her sister talked about it she realized not only was it all a lie, but she was used and she felt low like a piece of meat.

You could say similar about how you feel about your wife. That you were lied, that you had bought into your wife and your marriage, that none of it was true and that you threw your life away for nothing. That you were used and you feel like a low piece of wallet.

She had gotten to the point where I wasn't even part of the equation.

I don't believe that for a second that you hadn't even been part of the equation. Your daily interaction with kids and dealing with day-to-day chores, she WAS thinking about you every day and she had to lie to you every single day. It WAS part of the equation, every single day.

Yes, she was not thinking about you at all while she was screwing other man, while she was with other man, but SHE DID THINK ABOUT IT when she came back home to you - when she was with you in the home, she thought about you and what she was doing to the other man and she was having to think up lies, so she did think about you. She had to do to lie to tell you she was too tired to have sex with you or she had to think about a plan as to how she would plan to avoid being with you that same day that she did it with the other guy. Did she tell you as soon as you walked in how she felt sick, her stomach was bothering her, she had a headache, she was really tired, she was not feeling well? I almost guarantee you, she was planning to avoid having sex with you.

How did she tell herself that this was OK? Why was this OK for her? THAT is what you should be interested in - what she told herself that this was OK to accept your hard-working input into her and your marriage while she screwed another guy.

Right now, she is just telling you what she thinks you want to hear. Like my dad used to say, she is just throwing it against the wall and seeing if any of it sticks; she is running up the flagpole and seeing if you salute it.

She is trying to take your equation out of it. You were part of that equation, she had to navigate around that equation every single day morning and night. What did she say to herself to say this was OK?

I do not care too much what she thought about how she had "gotten to the point" 5 months later; I am very, very interested to hear how it happened the very first time, and the first few times.

Traded attention for sex, that I believe. That she didn't think about you, no way.

I was not impressed at all about that first short conversation on this. AVOIDANCE about the truth way more than I thought she would.

Walloped,

Sorry, but I do not view the conversation as her owning any of her shit

(1) you changed all her phone number and did all that stuff to make it impossible for OM to contact her, and yet if she was not at her sisters she would have compromised all of that and violated the NC that YOU told her woujld be a deal breaker. So despite the fact that you told her in plain English, which you are very clear and exact about, she would have again put it all on the line

(2) and just like I told you that when WW just NEED to yell at the OM, it is more than likely just a way to regain contact. That is exactly what she just told you. She WNATED to hear that he really reallty loved her and di not use her.

Sorry again, but I do not casll that remorse. I call it she wanted more ego kibbles from OM so she does not feel like an idiot for being used. And the big big problem is that she admits she would have put the whole R in jeopardy to talk to him. WHAT WOULD YOU HAVE DONE IF SHE BROKE NC, BECAUSE SHE WOULD HAVE. SHE JUST TOLD YOU THAT .

Her not thinking about you is fairly typical. WW who cannot compartmentalize start to not want to go near their husbands and are easier to catch. It is posted here all the time. They become distant.

Those that can, like your wife, are harder to catch because they can totally carry on their life and lead the double life. My wife also fell in to this category.

So you are still needing to take your time because I would really be concerned that this need for "closure" by "yerlling" at him can very easily turn into a need for "closure" IN PERSON, and you know what usually happens then. If she had not been at her sisters and OM "charmed " her, that is where you MIGHT have been.

So I repeat, YOUR EXPLICIT STATEMENT THAT ANY BREACH OF NC WAS IT WOULD HAVE DEFIONITELY BEEN VIOLATED IF YOU HAD NOT BEEN LUCKY ENOUGH TO HAVE HER AT SISTERS.

I do not call that remorse. I call it crossing the red line you laid down and you need to I think make her understand that her telling you she would have done it is not what you are looking for.

Also, I would not take SIL as truth going forward. You should be appreciative for everything that SIL has done for you, she has done a great service to you for her setting her wife on straight, and for your wife to not break NC. But SIL is your wife's sister, and she will be looking what is best for your wife, which is clear that SIL wants this marriage to succeed. I myself would like to see your marriage succeed, I am pro-marriage especially if kids are involved, but not unless you get to the truth of how this happened. You can succeed and still get the truth of why this happened. Even if SIL is genuine, which she may be, this stage of the process may be beyond her ability in helping you very much any longer.

Anyway, just consider that SIL may be wanting more to succeed than to tell the whole unvarnished truth.

Walloped,

I've been reading through your whole saga, much of which has a sad, tawdry familiarity to me.

I just wanted to say that I think you're doing a great job of handling all this. Head on, putting yourself and your kids first, forcing Ms. Walloped to fully confront the totality of her campaign of treachery.

I probably went too easy on Ms. Burned, although she's doing pretty well in owning her shit, making living amends to me and living each day with a renewed commitment to truth and honesty.

Keep being strong, cutting your wife ZERO slack, maintaining the 180, and doing what's right for you and your kids.

AND KEEP POSTING!

Thanks for the updates. I'm glad you have a counsellor picked out. I wish you all the best and don't hesitate to ask us for specific things we can do to help you. We're here for you.

walloped

Stop apologizing.

If posting here is cathartic for you then great.

And while I think it is good that your wife is opening up I think you see just how f'd up her thinking really is when it comes to her affair, the OM and you.

She put herself in a very selfish series of decisions in such a short time.

Please look at nononsense's post. He is correct that she wanted to break NC.

There is nothing wrong with you clearly telling your wife what NC is, means and what the consequences will be if she breaks NC.

If you and the boys need to get away and cool off today I'll be at my dad's in his big @ss pool (with my daughters and two nephews (6, 14,14,15) cooling off. We are just over the TZ Bridge not too far away from you.

Just send me a PM if you need the address.

HM

Hey Wallopped,

Thanks for checking in with the update.

While it does sound you like you got a lot more information, the info is still all about her and how she is feeling. I'm still voting 100% regret and no remorse. This pouring out of stuff to you is what should be happening for her in IC, you shouldn't have to be listening to it in its raw form, per se.

So she said maybe she wanted to call him hoping that perhaps she didn't destroy me, and everything else that she knows and loves for one big lie. Just to keep her sanity. Anyway, she wanted me to know

ALL about her. Would it somehow have been better if she destroyed you and everything else that she knows and loves for a guy that truly loved her and wanted to marry her? How would that be better for YOU? It wouldn't.

She's still steeped in her own mind and her own thoughts about how all of this is affecting HER.

Don't mistake simply telling you the truth you should have had from the beginning as remorse, when really it's just them trying to relieve more of their guilt.

well.. things have to start somewhere. Her start wasn't bad. The fact that she came clean about not bringing him to your home was something she didn't have to clarify and it makes her look bad. So, it seems like she's trying.

I agree with some of the other points though. There's no way that you weren't even in the equation. You were definitely in it and she may not want to admit to herself that she was continually stabbing you in the heart. Make no mistake, she was consciously and constantly betraying you. It makes her feel better about herself if she thinks that she compartmentalized completely and simply wasn't thinking about you. But, we may be being too critical. If she's a good person at all, then clearly she had to be compartmentalizing in order to do what she did. So maybe in her mind she's saying exactly that. I think we need to be careful about being too exacting with our definition of things and then claiming she's lying or manipulating if she doesn't say exactly what she should. That doesn't mean you shouldn't correct her. But don't assume she's intentionally lying. She's at the start of this journey too. She won't know exactly what to do either. So when you correct her, see how she reacts. If she' really in it to be a decent person, she'll take the criticism and try to do better.

I also agree that you need to reiterate that breaking NC is a red line and if she crosses it you will be through with her. I think the only reason she told you she wanted to break NC is because your SIL told her that she had already told you. So, your wife pretty much had to come clean about that and try to give an explanation. But I agree with the others, even if she thinks she's telling you her real motive, she isn't. She wanted to talk to POS to get affirmation that even if he was lying about a wife, he still loved your wife and still thought she was awesome. Your wife was looking for affirmation. She even sort of admitted that.

I know I"m suspicious, but is it possible she knows about this site and what you are posting? She seems to have come to some pretty quick insights. Like, no TT. Like trying not to cry and not to manipulate... I don't know. Most WWs don't figure that out so quickly.

btw - when I said don't let her cry, I didn't mean that you and she couldn't cry. I meant, don't let her avoid telling you the truth by breaking down and crying all the time. Don't let her try to deflect by seeking your sympathy through crying. I think it's ok to be emotional. You're going to be enraged at times. It's ok to call her names and cry if that is what happens. Don't try to be Spock.

One other thing I observed. I believe you will be able to R your marriage if you want to. But you need to really figure that out. Her betrayal has been very deep. You are going to hear a lot of bad stuff. Try to pace yourself. this is going to be a marathon, not a sprint. Unless of course you quickly figure out that this was a dealbreaker for you. In which case, you can be through with her. I would tell you though, even if you quickly decide to divorce, you are going to be scarred. You do need to see an IC to deal with this betrayal.

Good luck. Keep posting.

just saw this post from Nekorb

So she said maybe she wanted to call him hoping that perhaps she didn't destroy me, and everything else that she knows and loves for one big lie. Just to keep her sanity. Anyway, she wanted me to know

"ALL about her. Would it somehow have been better if she destroyed you and everything else that she knows and loves for a guy that truly loved her and wanted to marry her? How would that be better for YOU? It wouldn't." -- Nekorb

Nekorb is right. I'd bring that point exactly up with your wife.

Whallup,

Thank you for the update. The guys and girls are right, there is certainly a lot to process. You are at the stage where anything you get will be suspect and will just create more questions. That is normal to be feeling.

You are ahead of the game just by typing out your thoughts.

Keep up the good work.

Remember to judge on actions, not words.

You have a long road ahead of you.

Good luck today, weekends are the worst for this sort of stuff, particularly with younger kids

Eric

ust saw this post from Nekorb

So she said maybe she wanted to call him hoping that perhaps she didn't destroy me, and everything else that she knows and loves for one big lie. Just to keep her sanity. Anyway, she wanted me to know

"ALL about her. Would it somehow have been better if she destroyed you and everything else that she knows and loves for a guy that truly loved her and wanted to marry her? How would that be better for YOU? It wouldn't." -- Nekorb

Nekorb is right. I'd bring that point exactly up with your wife.

GREAT example of actions, not words. And an incredible point made. We have some very smart people here.

"I threw it away for a lie"

So it's better than she was throwing it away for a legit in-love relationship up until a few days ago? She basically acknowledged that her comments about not thinking of Whall were untrue, she was very consciously throwing something away.

yeah, the more I think about it, the more it makes me angry for YOU.

I think if i was in your shoes I'd ask my wife, "so, it would be better if in fact it wasn't all a lie? It would be better if you threw me and the kids away for a guy that really loved you? All that sex and betrayal is much better if he's really in love with you? Is that what you're saying?" "Maybe you should call him and go have a nice life with him. In fact, get the fuck out now. I just realized we're better off without you."

sorry, that's probably an over reaction. Just letting you know what my own wife had to deal with when it all came out. even after a couple of years this stuff can make me triggery.

take your time with this stuff Walloped.

good luck.