SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Hello kindred damaged souls. It is bitter sweet to have found this forum. Sweet in that I no longer feel so alone with all of the emotions and anguish I have been feeling. But bitter in the extreme mental, spiritual, physical pain I feel from you in the reading of these heartbreaking posts you have shared here. I have read many posts and all of the ones here, and at times it is just so hard to continue to absorb the gut wrenching, profoundly sad experiences and the aftermath contained on these pages that I have to take a break. It is uncanny how so many of you have seemingly reached into my thoughts and written them out so precisely. It is that realization that has caused me to know I am in the right place because the people here "get it". So as much as I wish none of us were here, I am thankful for you all.

Like so many of you, I Once Believed that the vows people expressed to each other when they married meant something. That when two people committed to be with each other exclusively, that was something you could trust and believe in. I of course now know that was just the naivete of a young man who had fallen in love for the first time. Sadly that was just not how life would play out. However my story is, I think, a bit unusual because I have had one DDay 37 years ago and now recently have come to expect a second DDay.

Some back story. We were married in 1981 after a brief engagement, had our first child in 1982 and in 1986 I experienced my first DDay. Her cover story was that she needed some "time away" with a new friend she had met a few months earlier and was going to stay with her and work out of town for a while. At the time being so naive and trusting, I believed her and was hoping that it would be an absence that would make our hearts grow fonder situation . Eventually I came to my senses and started listening to my gut and went unannounced to verify the stories she was telling me. She was not home at her new address when I arrived and so I waited. It wasn’t long and a car came into the driveway with her snuggled up next to the driver, some fucking guy. Upon seeing me, she immediately slid to her side of the car. She got out, he got out, and then he proceeded to confront me doing his best to start a fight, I didn’t take the bait. Instead she made him go in the house and we left to go talk. That scene is seared into my brain and has replayed in my mind for over 30 years and to this day when it plays, the trauma and anger are still potent. After much chaos and emotional upheaval we ended up in R but D was in the works (initiated by me) before we decided to R. We have since lived reasonably normal and happy lives and had a second child in 1994. But for me the trust was never again blind. So over the years I have had suspicions and doubts from time to time by little evidence to justify it.

Fast forward to Oct 2022. We were having some drinks on our deck and the topic of discussion turned to regrets we have had in our lives. At one point I said something to the effect of "Maybe you should confess your mistakes to me." Her response triggered a resurgence of the infidelity trauma from 37 years ago. She said "Can’t we just love each other because that will not end well." It felt at the time like some new truth accidentally slipped out. And my gut reaction was "Wow, what else has she done, who else has she been with that she has never told me about?" Since then I have been on a roller coaster of emotions and obsession with trying to figure out answers. She refuses to admit to anything other than the affair in 86 and has tried to walk back the won’t end well comment. But then she has said "I am not going to go back there, it is too painful and it might put me over the edge." So between that and my gut, I know there is something to this but how many men over how many years, I am just guessing at.

And in trying to fill in the gaps, my imagination has run wild with possibilities. And many of those have movie clips that play over and over. Sometimes waking me in the middle of the, like waking from a bad dream in reverse. I have tried in vain to explain why I want to know the truth but she just sticks by her stories, says I am crazy, and cries. I tried some IC but after 3 sessions got the distinct impression she was steering me towards "Don’t expect answers to those questions, move on." I just can not do that. The truth at this point in my life is far more important than how I feel about it. She has agreed to go to MC with me and I am considering giving that a try with a new therapist.

Another complication however is that she is a sexual abuse survivor from the age of 8 until we married when she was 18. We received no counseling back then and just tried to bludgeon our way through it and live a normal life. I now believe after being here and reading other writings that the effects of the abuse is far deeper and more profound than I fully realized. And I believe that it was a key catalyst in the promiscuity and infidelity. That I believe I will be able to understand and come to terms with. What I am really struggling with is the continuation of the lies. In my mind the affairs continue to present day because she keeps that part of herself hidden from me. And more so, how recent are these secrets? Perhaps they did not end as long ago as I have always thought. Has she just mastered her art of deception to such a fine degree that I have been fooled again all these years? Is she capable of new affairs even now?

It is just so hard to know how to move forward. I feel like we are the best friends and spouses we have ever been in our lives. And the woman she is today is so different than the woman she was back then that I sometimes feel guilty for continuing to bring it up, and so sometimes I don’t. But as so many of you have said, we have a right to know the truth. I firmly believe that and so I must continue to seek it and hopefully employ a healthy, positive, adult demeanor and find a way to heal both of us.

..hey IOB...sorry you're here...but you've found the best site for educating yourself. Read my friend...and learn!

You may get more replies if you posted your story in General.

Getting the truth from a cheating spouse is often not going to happen, even after the A is discovered and often is many years later. ( Read my profile story) smy

Thanks smy for the tips. I may give General a try then.

IOB,
So sorry for what you have been through. As you said so eloquently, all of the stories have an uncanny similarity. You opened up your post by saying you were a naive young man when you believed those vows meant something. It is amazing that someone you love could take your trusting heart and tear it to shreds. I am not sure I will ever understand. My grandfather cheated on my grandmother, then my father cheated on my mother and now my husband has cheated on me. My husband was well aware of the trauma I experienced as a child due to infidelity and yet he completely wiped that from memory while he partook in his affair. I wonder if you ever miss that man who trusted. I asked my husband if he missed the me that I was before and he said something like « we all change ». This is of course true but his comment shows me that even the loss of my soul meant fairly little to him. He probably doesn’t really understand anyway.

On the issue of the truth…. Tonight was my birthday and we had a beautiful dinner and then a bevy of presents for me. He was very sweet and went to great lengths. But at the tail end of dinner we discussed my desire to know the details of the kissing part of his affair over several months. I have protected myself from these details because some of the things I have been told have created too much pain. He said it was a mixed message for me to ask for the truth and simultaneously say I hope the truth is not that bad. (For me « not that bad » would be if he just used her physically but didn’t behave romantically toward her). I said I would be lying if I pretended that I didn’t want the truth to be less painful. It ended with a stalemate where he claimed we needed to rush home (we didn’t) in order to avoid further discussion of how he behaved toward the AP. He said she wasn’t a prostitute so he couldn’t be mean to her and expect to get the physical stuff he was looking for. I guess.

I keep trying to find the answers that will allow me to live with this. In reality there is no answer that will make this okay. When we have these talks he becomes demoralized and wants to give up, although he is always careful to say he is never going to leave.

I envy you your simple belief that all you want is the truth. I still want the truth to be different. It has been seven years of trickle truth. He swings radically between seeming to truly get it, to seeming so out of touch. Out of touch looks like him complaining that we are still discussing this seven years later when in reality he is the real reason for that. He only revealed the physical affair and the true betrayal six months ago. His admissions were spontaneous and he attributes this choice to come clean to things going so well in our relationship. Okay.

You said your mind runs wild thinking of the possibilities. I get it. There are a million acts of tenderness I imaging him engaging in, but he will never admit to any of it. I am sure I would be destroyed if he were to admit these things. I kind of wish I were strong enough to take the truth, as you seem to be. She is probably trying protect you, even if she is also trying to preserve herself equally.I am a psychiatrist and I have heard so many horror stories, kids sitting with their parents bodies for days after they were dead, rape, incest. I would never have believed that infidelity could cause so much pain if I had not lived it.

When I blew out my candles tonight I wished for peace. Peace in my mind. I hope you find that peace too, if you think the truth is the only way then I suppose you have no choice but to pursue it. Even if you are never actually granted what you seek. I wish you healing. You seem like a very compassionate person. You deserved better.

I am a psychiatrist

You buried the lede.

And this ^^ comment is simultaneously reassuring and devastating.

Arguably the most qualified person among us to process and heal from the unique and exquisite pain of both betrayal and delayed discovery of it is stuck, seven years later.

I am reassured that I am not failing and floundering in my own stalled efforts to heal and recover.

I am devastated that the type of person I would ask for assistance essentially shrugs and says, "let me know when you figure it out." No disrespect intended, we are on the same team that we did not and never would have elected into.

I am convinced, too, that my WW will never admit to the most intimate, most damaging truths. She’s admitted ghastly, horrible things to me, but I still believe she has intentionally withheld certain details that she believes would be the difference between my struggle to reconcile and my filing for divorce. Those details, to me, are the final, furthest acts of devotion, lust, love, etc. between herself and her AP that can be expressed physically. The truth she’s told me seems inevitably to lead to those details, it only makes sense that having done a,b,c,d,e,f…….v, and w that she would also have done x,y, and z. There’s no reason to stop at w. It makes no sense. That’s not what adults would have done then and there having done all that had admittedly been done.

But here we are, five years later, and I believe she’s still lying about it.

And here I am, on this forum, trying to make sense of it all.

Stillconfused2022, thank you for the thoughtful and compassionate response. I am truly so sorry to hear about your recent revelation and heartbreak. I can only imagine the pain must be two fold to suffer the aftermath of infidelity as a child and then to have found refuge in a marriage that you trusted sheltered you from re-experiencing that as and adult, only to then be more deeply traumatized with a first hand experience of the pain that cheating brings. You do not deserve that.

You asked if I ever miss the earlier innocent/trusting version of me, yes very much. In fact since this all started a few months ago I have been journaling and that is one realization I came to, from my journal:

"I don't think I really fully mourned the death of the younger, innocent version of me that unquestioningly believed we were committed to each other for life. I trusted her completely and thought we were on the same page with our vows of commitment. That turned out to not be true and that is the part of me that died there that day. That trust will most likely never be restored to the original level."

I think it is important and healthy to embrace those more innocent versions of ourselves because if we just leave them behind I fear life may become rather pointless and unbearably cynical. Hugs to your innocent trusting soul, and mine.

Happy Birthday. Mine was the day I made my first post. I think I may appear braver than I feel in being able to handle the truth. But I have to believe that as sorted as the truth may be, that my wild imagination probably has come up with worse imagery and stories than what reality is. I could of course be wrong but I am willing to risk that at this point. Because having a strong notion that there is more to the story that is untold is having negative effect on our relationship because I am really having very substantial trust issues. And for me that is a core value and without it I just feel so incomplete.

You said:

"I keep trying to find the answers that will allow me to live with this. In reality there is no answer that will make this okay. When we have these talks he becomes demoralized and wants to give up, although he is always careful to say he is never going to leave. "

Yes me too. And that is why I said I sometimes, although I want to, I just don’t talk about it. My hope is that over time these feelings will gradually become less strong and more infrequent but I like you believe right now that those answers that will make this ok are elusive at best and perhaps non-existent.

I too want the truth to be different. I sometimes wake in the night feeling normal for a bit and then that dark black cloud of infidelity imagery engulfs me once again. I would love those "normal" moments to last longer and be more frequent and perhaps with work and time they can be.

As a man my ego was smashed with regard to me fulfilling her sexual needs and to this day remains damaged. However, equally hurtful are the mind movies where they are having afterglow pillow talk, holding hands, having a meal together, traveling to new places for the first time that we have never seen together. Those romantic movies for me are just as gut wrenching as the sex movies. I mean a drunken ONS I can better wrap my head around, but to be cast aside for the love of someone else is truly a total mind f*ck!

I think the withholding she is doing she thinks is protecting me and has nearly said as much. But I know there is more. I sense she knows that I know there is more. And from so many other stories here, being forthcoming, although difficult, is better than finding out later and then long term deception gets added to the infidelity and to me that is far worse.

And yes I may never find the truth I seek. I have to be realistic. But something I have found is the kindness, compassion, and understanding of others here which does lessen the pain. May you get your birthday wish and find peace and healing.

[This message edited by IOnceBelieved at 3:53 PM, Saturday, February 18th]

Wiseoldfool, I completely agree that what I do know is just the tip of the iceberg. And I fear that she will never tell the entire truth at risk, in her mind, that it could end the marriage. And who knows, she may be right. I do very much appreciate your contributions to the group. In fact I have saved your tag line because it rang so true to me. My hope is to share it and some other quotes with my wife to hopefully help her understand what we are all going through. Because I know she regrets what happened, but I don't think she actually understands how it affected me.

IOB, why would she disclose anything else if the alternative means you stay anyway? It sounds like she knows you have zero leverage and will just pout.

She can just keep parts of that relationship just between them.

How important is the truth to you? If you are not really willing to walk you are not likely to get her to change her attitude or behavior.

I would think the insistence on the truth would be a prerequisite to reconciliation.

N2L, You make a very good point. She knows very well how to manipulate me and just ignoring what I want and pouting is an effective tactic for her. There is however a disconnect between us since this started that I know she really wishes would get healed up. She has agreed to go to MC to resolve it. My short term plan is to try some MC in hopes that may help her understand where I am at in this and empathize with my feelings and that along with our current disconnect may lead to some productive discussions. But, I don't want to get into a long term battle of wills where she just plants her feet and will not budge. So you are right, that without some boundary or ultimatum that I hold firm to that makes it non-negotiable as far as my wants/needs then I may never get this resolved. What that boundary is, I guess I still need to work out. Thank you for you candor and prodding to get serious about how I will move forward with this.

You're welcome.

It sounds like you are clear-headed about the limits of obtaining the truth without an ultimatum if this round of nudging fails.

Woke up too early this morning with memories from my decades old story on my mind and felt that sharing it here may help me along the path of understanding and healing that I have recently set foot on after far too many years of rug sweeping. These memories are the stuff of crazy making that we all regret ever having to experience but, here we are.

When we decided to R, now looking back I believe it was not so much R as it was manic rug sweeping. I believe I so desperately wanted to make the pain stop and her guilt and shame causing her deep hurt, that we without the aid of any counseling just made believe that our lives would return to how they were before the affair, they didn’t. But we decided to get back together and she came back home. Soon after that she went to visit her mom with our son. That part of the story has some new wrinkles that have recently come to light as well. I had always believed that her mom had counseled her to return to the marriage but I have recently learned that is not what happened. From my journal:

"I am angry that I was cast aside so easily by my wife and her mom. Her mom told her to go where she was happiest. Her mom cheated on her husband and finally left him and rightly so as he was having sex with his own children, beating his wife, just a sick sociopathic pedophile bastard. But what crime did I commit that was so bad that it was ok to cast me aside by both of them? I mean why didn’t she tell her daughter, "Maybe you should try getting some help." Why didn't my wife try getting or suggesting help for us? Instead it was ok to cast me aside. Makes me question the sincerity of the love they both expressed to me. Seems they were just a lot of empty words. Actions it seems, do speak louder than words and when the professed love was tested, it was ok to just let me go."

So now I have to wonder if there were phone conversations and/or visits he made with her while she was there. But while she was there the doubting Thomas in me was in high gear and I bought a gizmo from Radio Shack that connected to a cassette tape recorder to a phone line, a kind of VAR of it’s day. She returned home after a week or so and within a few days of her return I recorded a telephone love making session with her and he new found love. That experience is the food of nightmares and insanity. I waited until we were in the car together and pushed the tape into the player. Being in their love making conversation with her was truly unbearable and I believe it pushed me into temporary madness. I was driving and I opened the door and left the car. I just remember getting up from the street and running, no idea or care where, just running. I finally ran into a field and fell to the ground sobbing and broken. She meanwhile had stopped the car and came after me. She caught up with me and sat on me telling me some kind of sorry I will never do it again, he means nothing to me, I love you stories. The trauma and years make what she said that day and the recorded phone call vague memories now. But the emotions and pain are still there.

We destroyed that tape back then along with some other items so I only heard it once or twice. I just can’t imagine how awful and crazy making it is for those of you who still have love letters, emails, texts, photos, videos of a similar nature to endure reliving those graphic and horrible details over and over. Sometimes I wish I could hear that tape again but then have to wonder if it is better I can’t. I am just so so sorry for all of you, for all of us to have to carry these toxic memories for the rest of our lives. I have never told this story to anyone for nearly 40 years, thanks to you all for allowing me to bare my soul, it helps.

I am sorry you found us here at SI IOnceBelieved — but this place definitely helped me heal.

I think if you can finally heal, it doesn’t have to be a life of toxic memories, you may get to a point where you make some good new memories or at least able to focus on the better moments.

I found out years later, but once my wife confessed, I got the details I needed and didn’t rug sweep any of it. We hammered through some good marriage counseling and I got to choose my path forward. I don’t know that it is ever too late to heal.

Although, I will say, the brain doesn’t process time itself very well, the wounds feel NEW — and hopefully your WS understands that.

My wife’s A was long enough ago there wasn’t any kind of evidence laying around, but the AP was a family friend, we were friends with his whole family, so he did show up in some old photos. I enjoyed destroying those, it was a bit cathartic.

It does help to share thoughts, and even the horrible pain of it all. I vented here for a couple years before I started to feel better.

Vent as often as you need!

I bought a gizmo from Radio Shack that connected to a cassette tape recorder to a phone line, a kind of VAR of it’s day.

In the weeks after my wife's affair, I had placed an VAR inside her car. I heard the constant crying of her being declined for apartment after apartment because her credit was bad, and they wanted like a deposit, first and last months rent, monies which she didn't have. She was stuck with me.

I also received confirmation that it ended with OM, she was talking to her sister, her main confidant. She would tell her sister how she looks at him in such an awful light now. He was still hitting on her, she told him how awful he was. This helped me start to recover.....

.......until this one night I bugged her car and listened. I heard the phrase, "I haven't been 100% honest with <my name>, if he knew (RIGHT AT THIS POINT SHE DROPPED SOMETHING AND I NEVER HEARD IT), he would be destroyed.

Knew what? She cheated the entire time? She had a same sex affair? She had an abortion? Fucked my brother? My kid isn't mine?

Its not like I can let her listen and say, "hey, what did you mean by that?"

I had enough pain shopping at that point. And I know my mental health probably wouldn't be able to handle whatever dark secret she was hiding, so I talked to my therapist about it and did my best to move on from it.

In the weeks after my wife's affair, I had placed an VAR inside her car. I heard the constant crying of her being declined for apartment after apartment because her credit was bad, and they wanted like a deposit, first and last months rent, monies which she didn't have. She was stuck with me.

I also received confirmation that it ended with OM, she was talking to her sister, her main confidant. She would tell her sister how she looks at him in such an awful light now. He was still hitting on her, she told him how awful he was. This helped me start to recover.....

.......until this one night I bugged her car and listened. I heard the phrase, "I haven't been 100% honest with <my name>, if he knew (RIGHT AT THIS POINT SHE DROPPED SOMETHING AND I NEVER HEARD IT), he would be destroyed.

Knew what? She cheated the entire time? She had a same sex affair? She had an abortion? Fucked my brother? My kid isn't mine?

Its not like I can let her listen and say, "hey, what did you mean by that?"

I had enough pain shopping at that point. And I know my mental health probably wouldn't be able to handle whatever dark secret she was hiding, so I talked to my therapist about it and did my best to move on from it.

It says you are reconciling. How do you do that not knowing what additional betrayals she committed? It seems like a good idea to know what exactly you are dealing with if R is being considered.

It says you are reconciling. How do you do that not knowing what additional betrayals she committed? It seems like a good idea to know what exactly you are dealing with if R is being considered.

I'm 7 years out now. Tbh, I've somewhat rugswept this, because I know if I pushed it, I may not like what I hear. Quite frankly, I may not mentally be able to handle it. The mind movies from one incident she told me about sent me into a tailspin, something I occasionally think about to this day. I have an amazing memory, I can latch onto something and never let it go. 7 years later and I still know OM's birthday (because I read it in one of her texts to her friend).

She's basically like Jack Nicholson in "A Few Good Men". I can't handle the truth.

It says you are reconciling. How do you do that not knowing what additional betrayals she committed? It seems like a good idea to know what exactly you are dealing with if R is being considered.

This is the issue I struggle with the most. She repeatedly says "Why can't you just leave it in the past?" And I am unable to effectively explain to her that I don't know what "it" is. I equate it to her setting up grief counseling for the loss of a loved one but refusing to tell me who it is. But then tells me the counseling will help. Who am I mourning here. To me it seems so fundamental to know the truth to be able to process, heal, and move on.

And this:

She's basically like Jack Nicholson in "A Few Good Men". I can't handle the truth.

I started with an IC last Dec. She told me in so many words this^ same thing. Again I was unsuccessful in conveying that it is the not knowing the details but knowing it is bad that spins me out into never ending what ifs and speculation mind movies that I have come to believe are probably worse than reality. I quit going to her and have since wondered if she has had CSA trauma herself and so is protecting my wife (who she never met) from the trauma of coming clean. But then I wonder if she knows that more times than not, BH do not get the details they need and was trying to prepare me for that. I don't know it just felt like right out of the gate she was saying what you want is not possible or healthy.

We have recently begun MC and the counselor seemed to agree that bringing up "those details" would not do anybody any good. She suggested IC for me the next session. So I am discouraged so far, but I will try and get her to see that it is the not knowing that is the immovable issue for me that unless addressed will prevent me from the healing and closure I need.

We have recently begun MC and the counselor seemed to agree that bringing up "those details" would not do anybody any good. She suggested IC for me the next session. So I am discouraged so far, but I will try and get her to see that it is the not knowing that is the immovable issue for me that unless addressed will prevent me from the healing and closure I need.

Our MC initially said the same thing.

Then I disagreed.

We have to KNOW exactly what it is we’re being asked to accept. And accepting never means you’re okay with it, but at least you know the extent of the time and energy that was taken from your M.

See my tagline, below.

Our MC, who specializes in sexual addiction recovery (so he's got a wee bit of experience with infidelity /s) advised WH to answer every question that I had. And he advised me to make sure that I wanted the answers before I asked.

[This message edited by SacredSoul33 at 4:23 PM, Monday, March 13th]

SacredSoulSister, Was your WH open to disclosing details of the A before you started with counseling? Or was there a change that happened when counseling started that caused him to stop the lies? For me, we have talked outside of counseling about the A but there are details I believe still being kept. But there is no movement at all towards revealing the other infidelities.