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Kiwi,

My wife had never given a BJ before me. I got more BJs in my first week with the OW than I've gotten in 8 years with my wife. Your description of your life with your husband sounds great, but its just not my wife. I knew that going in, so I feel terrible now saying it in the nature of a complaint. But, it takes a natural disaster to wake her up in the morning. The OW woke me up the way you wake your husband up.

But, to be honest, I don't need that. I just want something surprising and exciting every now and then, and that's just not something my wife is great at. For example, our MC gave us assignment to each plan dates to do something that we had never done before. As soon as she said it, I knew exactly what my wife was going to do and it was something that we had never talked about. I just knew. Trust me, I know this makes me sound like a terrible person. I don't want it come across that way. I love my wife, but I don't know how to get her to be sexy and exciting when that's just not her nature.

To be honest, I almost feel like she needs a friend to say to her, "You need to come up with some new stuff."

I feel bad even submitting this, because it sounds terrible. I'm really sorry, but there is a lot of truth in here. Maybe I can make it better, but I couldn't figure out how for 5 years, and its not something that's going to cause me to leave my marriage over. The other things she provides outweighs this problem that we have.

The other things she provides outweighs this problem that we have.

Actually, that isn't true. You have already had an A because of the "problem", do you really, really think that you'll "learn to live with it."

You can't and you won't.

You know you really, really need to communicate about something as important as your sex life and your married sex life IS important.

I firmly believe anyone and everyone can be sexy and exciting.

Well given the fact she didn't have to do anything else for you like your laundry, clean your house, put up with you moods, etc...how difficult do you think it is to give 5 bjs a day and fuck 3 times a day? Honestly, when you have nothing else between you sex is easy. This wouldn't be difficult for me to do at all with somebody I was only having sex with. Do you think it would have stayed like that had you left your wife and moved in with the OW? Hell no it wouldn't have!

I know it wouldn't have stayed that way forever, but that doesn't mean it wasn't real for a while, and that's the stupid comparison that I'm having to deal with.

But, my wife doesn't cook and clean. We work as partners. I almost always cook. We share laundry, etc. We have someone that comes in and cleans our house. We both do an equal amount of work. The truth is, we both work like crazy in our jobs, and that was especially so when the affair first started. At that time, my wife was working about 70 hours/week a lot of weeks. I was working about 55. My wife was at work, so the other woman would fix dinner, take care of me, buy clothes for me, etc.

But, I do get what you're saying. It wasn't always going to be like that. At some point, the OW was going to say "I've got some needs that need to be met." So, I get it, but its almost like I need to have lived it to fully appreciate it. Its almost like I needed to experience living with the OW for about 3 months and realizing that my fantasy was just that, because right now I'm just being too damn stubborn to let it go.

[This message edited by esmdqt at 9:55 PM, April 6th (Sunday)]

I just had my H(fws) read your last post and he said "dang did he have it covered in bandaids cause 8 times a day would have to be raw -lube,wet or not"

I'm backing out now....good luck,really good luck to you.

Trust me. Giving me something to laugh out every now and then is a pretty good thing.

eS,

why don't you tell us a little about yourself, how old you are, how long you have been married, what your childhood was like and how your wife is reacting to news of the affair. That might give us a better handle on what is going on with you. It's one thing for a long-time married person to feel as you did, and quite another for someone who has been married a short time.

Late 20s. Met my wife when I was in grad school. Together for 8 years. Lived together for 4 years before getting married. Been married now for 3 1/2 years. The affair started right at our first anniversary. My wife and I both have very demanding and challenging careers where we can go through a period of months and see each other on average of about an hour a night.

My wife is taking it. She had asked me many times and I denied it. Right now, more than anything else, she just wants to know why. She blames herself a lot for not being around enough, and that's BS. I take the blame for everything, and I feel like I should. But, every day is different. Some days she takes it better than others. She doesn't want to talk about it a lot, but when she does I just try to answer all of her questions as best as possible.

Only child. Divorced parents. Mom had custody but I was closer with my dad. My mom and I fought all the time, and still do. I'm the only thing she has, and its almost just too much for me to handle a lot of times. There's just always a lot of pressure for me to be there for her when she needs it. Fortunately, I live about 6 hours from her. Dad re-married when I was in my late teens, but I was out with friends all the time and didn't learn anything from them about how to be a family, for example.

What the other woman knew is that you were a man who could be manipulated. And she did. Expertly. Some people are gifted in that way and it is usually because they have grown up being manipulated or even abused themsevles.

I manipulated her too, so I'm the one to blame. I let her think that there was a chance she could be with me. Some days I thought I wanted to, but I always gave her enough to keep her around. But, I gave her something different. She had always been called the pretty girl, and everyone always focused on the way she looked. You know how it works, "Tell the pretty ones they're brilliant and tell the smart ones they're beautiful." But, to be honest, for about the first year we got along great and just enjoyed the infatuation. The last 1 1/2 years was a constant tug of war. I'd try to get rid of her, she'd get me back. She'd start a fight, then get me back. I'd start a fight, and try to get her back. It was just a very juvenile relationship that was filled with a lot of drama, manipulation, etc. From what I've read, that makes sense considering the environment I grew up in.

ok,said I was baking out and I will...let me see if this makes sense to you...you could focus on 8 times a day with another woman and yet you thought it'd just magically happen with your wife without your focus and attention..you have alot of learning and growing up to do.

Let me just say that I completely agree with you that I have a lot of learning and growing up to do. That's why I'm here. But, I was mature enough to realize that what I had with the OW wasn't healthy, or sustainable, or something made it not worth leaving my wife for.

But, I think you're focusing on the number a little too much. A BJ could be a quick drive to Starbucks to get a cup of coffee in the afternoon. We're talking just about 5 minutes of a little messing around.

But, like I've said, there wasn't a whole lot to focus on. It just happened naturally. That was just what we did. Then I would get home, cook, do some work, talk to my wife about her day, and find ways to send emails to text messages to the OW. I worked with the OW. We spent 8 hours a day 10 feet from one another or closer. We had drinks after work. We didn't need time to catch up. We spent way more time together than my wife and I did.

Of course she would rate it that high. She had nothing else to offer you. She kept you preoccupied with the sex, so that you wouldn't see her for the person she really was. She lied to you and manipulated you to get what she wanted as well. How high do you think those two things rate on the scale?

Good point. I can't argue with that in any way. But, how do I change my feelings about her? How do I start to see her for the person she really was rather than this drug that gave me this great "high." I'm dead serious for anyone that's been through this, how do I tear down this woman in my own mind and convince myself that she wasn't who I wanted her to be?

"Good point. I can't argue with that in any way. But, how do I change my feelings about her? How do I start to see her for the person she really was rather than this drug that gave me this great "high." I'm dead serious for anyone that's been through this, how do I tear down this woman in my own mind and convince myself that she wasn't who I wanted her to be?"

esmdqt,

You're up against your brain on this. From reading your posts mentioning your interaction with your wife, I gather that there hasn't been a lot of physical connection between you both.

Have you and your wife done any hysterical bonding? It's the sex that usually comes shortly after the affair is exposed. It can be really wild sometimes, because it's often like a reclaiming of each other. It has struck me as odd that you haven't mentioned it.

I think the lack of physical intimacy on an on-going basis between you and your wife is an issue. A radical change in your schedules is called for. You might just be the type of husband who needs a lot of attention and affection from your wife. And if she's seeing you for 1 hour at night, that won't cut it.

The OW is on your brain,literally. You bonded with her as a co-worker in a work environment. Then developed an infatuation (attraction). Took it to a romantic level (friendship). And tossed in sex,making what was supposed to be a short term situation, longterm (oxytocin hormones released during orgasm cause a feeling of bonding).

For you,you need to focus on the positives of your wife. When thoughts of OW pop into your head, stop them, and think of your wife. (If you can't stop them , maybe you need some meds to keep from ruminating)

Also, you probably need more sex with your BW. And that's something she gets to decide to give you. She might feel very uncomfortable with it right now.

I've enclosed a link about the brain and sex. Check it out, after all, out biggest sex organ is between our ears!

http://www.menshealth.com/cda/article.do?site=MensHealth&channel=sex.relationships&category=better.sex&conitem=f74a99edbbbd201099edbbbd2010cfe793cd____&page=1

How do I start to see her for the person she really was rather than this drug that gave me this great "high." I'm dead serious for anyone that's been through this, how do I tear down this woman in my own mind and convince myself that she wasn't who I wanted her to be?

How? By choosing to.

Liveluvlaph said it best. You have to rewire your brain. When you focus on what you perceive to be "good" about your OW, you must immediately think of the bad things she was instead. She was a liar. She was a manipulator. She participated in the betrayal of your wife. She was willing to hurt your wife in one of the worst possible ways just to have you. Does this sound like a good person? No, it doesn't. At the same time, focus on the good things about your wife. It takes a little time, but you can do this.

I've been reading along. esmdqt, I think you are having a very "controlled" withdrawal. You have the classic signs, but you are in total control of your emotions.

When I went through it (and I mean THROUGH it, no way around it!) I was an emotional mess. I was writhing in pain and couldn't quite see the good in my H, as you can see in your wife.

I think it might help you to go to the healing library, and practice the tips for getting through withdrawal...whichever ones help you. A stop sign when you think of her..naming the colors in the room...that sort of thing.

You are withdrawing. I think it is typical for men to have to withdraw from the sex and for women to withdraw from the emotional bond they have formed...

Good luck. I honestly think that after about a year to 15 months (yep, you read that right...) you will begin to see things differently and be glad you stayed with your wife (if she sees fit to reconcile with you). You sound like you really love her. Sex is just one aspect of a relationship and one that can be worked on and improved.

IMHO, you are in withdrawal...plain and simple. Hang in there. Keep posting. And keep NC!!

Given your background, here is a book that might really help you. It's called Getting the Love You Want by Harville Hendrix.

There are two points of Hendrix' that really speak to your situation.

One is that often the very things we marry a person for are what come to be problematic after a bit. It sounds as though your wife's cool beauty and her stability/competence and her professional possibilities were what drew her to you to start -- they are what you see as "good" in her. But they are also what bores you now. That is typical. Read Hendrix and he'll tell you what to do about it.

He will also explain how your relationships with your parents set you up for the exact kinds of feelings you have about your wife, your self and the OW. And what to do about that, too.

But, the other woman was fighting to win me.

BS here, didn't see a stop sign so thought I'd drop in.

Of course she was fighting to win you - she was an interloper. Your wife shouldn't have to fight for you - you took vows that you would never place her in that situation. You need to really understand that you placed this OW at an unfair advantage, and that you will not heal your marriage until you knock the OW off the un-earned pedestal you've placed her on. Period. Knock her off of there.

As for the sex: I can promise my ex thought I was vanilla. He (the wayward ex, that is) was convinced I was just blah, just a good mom to the kids and a good housekeeper and a damn good cook and a nice person and gosh, doesn't everyone love her? But not very fun in bed.

You know why? Honest-to-god, straight from the Holder Of The Vagina Privileges: I knew, deep down, that I was fighting a losing game with him.

I knew he was criticizing me, holding me to "porn star" standards, and it hindered my ability to be free. To feel as sexy as I really am. And sexy comes from inside, from confidence. How can you expect your wife to have confidence? To feel like she's Top Woman when she KNOWS she's just been in competition for years, and you are still putting OW on a pedestal in your head?

She's fighting a game she can't win right now.

I can tell you this - I am now with someone that respects me and my boundaries and I rock his world. I mean I've suffered injuries that required a chiropractor, we get so up in it.

And my ex would define me as vanilla. Because with him, I felt small, under-appreciated, "fine" but not great.

Stop wanting porn star sex. Not "stop expressing it", make yourself understand that it's not going to happen. Stop wishing for it, pining after it, thinking about it. Because as long as you have that in your head as your ideal, your BS can sense that and will throttle back her own feelings. She will sense that she's not measuring up to the images in your head and protect herself by not even trying to swing from the chandelier.

As Bulldozer said, love is a verb. It is. Start loving her. Not telling her you love her, LOVE HER. Every time you think of the OW, do something nice for your wife. Call her and tell her that you hope she's having a good day. Bring her flowers. Rub her feet. Give her a hug. Actually DO things that display love to her. Eventually, you will change your thinking and, sensing that, she'll come around.

Hi ES,

I don't have time to read every reply on this thread, but judging from the ones I did read, you've gotten some excellent advice.

The one thing that jumped out at me was your family background. I think it's pretty interesting that you grew up feeling that you had an emotionally needy, smothering mother and then went on to marry someone who sounds almost like the polar opposite, only to end up seeking out a needy, manipulative woman (who seems to leave chaos in her wake)... I'm also intrigued by the fact that you got married fairly young and to the first woman you had a real relationship with.

I'm guessing you're covering this in IC?

esmdqt

I am my H's first real relationship. Your posts sound very similar to how my H may express himself about me.

As for the sex: I can promise my ex thought I was vanilla. He (the wayward ex, that is) was convinced I was just blah, just a good mom to the kids and a good housekeeper and a damn good cook and a nice person and gosh, doesn't everyone love her? But not very fun in bed.

You know why? Honest-to-god, straight from the Holder Of The Vagina Privileges: I knew, deep down, that I was fighting a losing game with him.

I knew he was criticizing me, holding me to "porn star" standards, and it hindered my ability to be free. To feel as sexy as I really am. And sexy comes from inside, from confidence. How can you expect your wife to have confidence? To feel like she's Top Woman when she KNOWS she's just been in competition for years, and you are still putting OW on a pedestal in your head?

Very true. You and the Ow have are in each other's head and there is no room for your W and she knew it before she found out about your A. I am quite sure she blamed your emotional absence from her on your work schedule and maybe hers before she found out about your A.

ETA: Try making a list of everything that is *sexy* to you about a woman outside of sex. Write down everything you like about your W and the Ow.

t/j

A friend of mine who is single is thinking about marrying a woman he is dating because they have mind blowing sex and she is very needy which makes him feel like a man. She can't cook, she will leave dishes in the sink and on the stove for a week at a time, she does not pick up behind herself, she will not do the grocery shopping, she is horrible at finances; he is always bailing her out, she doesn't work and she doesn't have any kids by him but she can give him mind blowing BJ's and sex anytime and anywhere he wants. According to him she is confident and sexy. His family does not like her and will not tell him how they feel about her in fear that it will drive the two of them closer together.

[This message edited by letting_go at 9:48 AM, April 7th (Monday)]

esmdqt,

Out of curiosity, would you still be with the OW if she hadn't broken things off with you?

WOW...I love this site!!! The posts have been amazing and I'm learning so much...

Thank you, esmdqt...You're responses are honest and very well communicated. I know you'll continue to get great advice and you're helping others by your posts!!! I have learned something from each response. You guys continue to amaze me!

[This message edited by tessad at 10:48 AM, April 7th (Monday)]

Actually, that isn't true. You have already had an A because of the "problem", do you really, really think that you'll "learn to live with it."

You can't and you won't.

You know you really, really need to communicate about something as important as your sex life and your married sex life IS important.

I firmly believe anyone and everyone can be sexy and exciting.

I'm hoping that I learn a lot from the affair. I won't have another one. And I know the way to solve the problem is by communicating with my wife rather than screwing the next hot secretary that I find.

But, I understand what you are saying. I just don't think I'll leave my wife if this is a problem we can't fix. I think other things that we have are too good to let go of. Obviously, I really, really want to fix it.

I knew before this thread that it was something that I needed to fix, but this has happened my eyes as to how I was causing the problem the whole time. And I say that not even considering the affair. I'm talking about how I allowed my own vision of my wife and my own inability to communicate with her to cause this problem.

After I stopped posting last night, I went to bed and I was more turned on by her than I had been in probably months. She was asleep, but to me, it was at least a baby-step. I think more than anything else this discussion has given me hope that it can be what I want it to be if I truly give it a chance.

[This message edited by esmdqt at 11:22 AM, April 7th (Monday)]

You're up against your brain on this. From reading your posts mentioning your interaction with your wife, I gather that there hasn't been a lot of physical connection between you both.

Have you and your wife done any hysterical bonding? It's the sex that usually comes shortly after the affair is exposed. It can be really wild sometimes, because it's often like a reclaiming of each other. It has struck me as odd that you haven't mentioned it.

None since the beginning of the year. I honestly haven't wanted it, and its not exactly on the top of her agenda right now. I've never heard the term "hysterical bonding." Can you share more about that?

I think the lack of physical intimacy on an on-going basis between you and your wife is an issue. A radical change in your schedules is called for. You might just be the type of husband who needs a lot of attention and affection from your wife. And if she's seeing you for 1 hour at night, that won't cut it.

I agree. I don't say that as an excuse for what I've done. But, I think its something that I need to tell her is a need of mine. We're working on changing jobs and moving to a new city so that we have more time with another and distance from the OW . . . more than distance from the OW, its creating distance between my memories of her.

Liveluvlaph said it best. You have to rewire your brain. When you focus on what you perceive to be "good" about your OW, you must immediately think of the bad things she was instead. She was a liar. She was a manipulator. She participated in the betrayal of your wife. She was willing to hurt your wife in one of the worst possible ways just to have you. Does this sound like a good person? No, it doesn't. At the same time, focus on the good things about your wife. It takes a little time, but you can do this.

I had IC this morning, and the counselor talked about how I'm spending all of my energy trying not to think of the OW, which is really just a different way of thinking of her. I think that's been a big problem.

I get what you are saying about how the OW wasn't a great person. But, part of the problem is that I don't blame her for anything. She saw something she wanted and went after it. I was the one that made a commitment and allowed it to happen. If anything, I'm sympathetic towards her because I kept her involved in a relationship for 2 1/2 years in the prime of her life when she could been finding a real relationship to be in. Sure there are days when I get angry with her, but I usually just end up angry with myself.

I've been reading along. esmdqt, I think you are having a very "controlled" withdrawal. You have the classic signs, but you are in total control of your emotions.

When I went through it (and I mean THROUGH it, no way around it!) I was an emotional mess. I was writhing in pain and couldn't quite see the good in my H, as you can see in your wife.

I think it might help you to go to the healing library, and practice the tips for getting through withdrawal...whichever ones help you. A stop sign when you think of her..naming the colors in the room...that sort of thing.

You are withdrawing. I think it is typical for men to have to withdraw from the sex and for women to withdraw from the emotional bond they have formed...

Good luck. I honestly think that after about a year to 15 months (yep, you read that right...) you will begin to see things differently and be glad you stayed with your wife (if she sees fit to reconcile with you). You sound like you really love her. Sex is just one aspect of a relationship and one that can be worked on and improved.

IMHO, you are in withdrawal...plain and simple. Hang in there. Keep posting. And keep NC!!

Thanks for your post. I don't feel in control of my emotions as much as I feel in control of my mind. I feel like my emotions run all over the place. My mind tells me the affair was a fantasy, my relationship with the OW would have never lasted, etc. But, I still sit around wondering and missing her. Its almost like I'm a child, you've told me the stove is hot, I know the stove is hot, but I still don't want to believe that the stove will really burn me if I touch it. So, its like I know the other woman was not good for me, I know our relationship was not healthy, I know that the chances of it being successful were incredibly remote, but because I never actually gave it a chance to work (by leaving my wife) then I'm not fully convinced of that.

That's kind of where I feel I am right now.

Thanks for the estimate of 12-15 months. As I've said above, my relationships haven't been all that long-term, so I'm used to a grieving process of days or weeks and not months. I get frustrated because I feel like I shouldn't still be thinking this way about this stupid girl 3 months later. But, because people like you have shared their stories with me, I see that my expectations for withdrawal need to be adjusted. I just get frustrated because she's still on my mind, and I desperately want to get her out of my mind.

Given your background, here is a book that might really help you. It's called Getting the Love You Want by Harville Hendrix.

There are two points of Hendrix' that really speak to your situation.

One is that often the very things we marry a person for are what come to be problematic after a bit. It sounds as though your wife's cool beauty and her stability/competence and her professional possibilities were what drew her to you to start -- they are what you see as "good" in her. But they are also what bores you now. That is typical. Read Hendrix and he'll tell you what to do about it.

He will also explain how your relationships with your parents set you up for the exact kinds of feelings you have about your wife, your self and the OW. And what to do about that, too.

Thanks for the tip. It looks like I know what I'm reading when I finish NOT "Just Friends." (I swear the people at Borders must thing I'm a complete mess. I am. Who am I kidding?)

Anyway, I read in After the Affair something very similar to that. She called it the flip-flop theory. The things that I find attractive about my wife are also the things that cause me to be "bored" with her. I also applied that thinking to the OW and saw how the things that I did like about her were the exact same characteristics that caused me to have the reasons to stay with my wife, and I wanted to read more about that. It sounds like the book you're talking about could really help.

But, just to talk about what you are saying. I can remember when I first started dating my wife, I felt like it was the first time that I was in a real, mature relationship. We didn't fight. We didn't play games. We were just real with one another, and I absolutely loved it. But, 5 years into the relationship, what did I do? I went looking for that college-esque relationship filled with sex, drama, manipulation, games, etc., and I'm still sitting here missing that in many ways. I wish I understood that better than I do. Its like I grew up, got immature again, and now I need to grow up again.

[This message edited by esmdqt at 12:19 PM, April 7th (Monday)]