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esmdqt, I read that you were an only child with an intense, difficult relationship with your mother. I am as well. My H is the opposite of that which is what attracted me as well, however, I have learned through my IC sessions, that when a primary care giver has a very challenged relationship with a child, dramatic, hot, cold, lots of emotional upheaval, that's what a child learns to equate as love. Any relationship that lacks the drama can be seen as boring or not "true" love. I needed to program myself to accept that the more "intense" a relationship does not equate to value and worth. I don't know if that applies in your case but sounded familiar.

If anything, I'm sympathetic towards her because I kept her involved in a relationship for 2 1/2 years in the prime of her life when she could been finding a real relationship to be in.

By thinking this way, you are placing the OW in the role of victim, thus invoking sympathy from you. She does not deserve that. She was not a victim. By your own admission, she lied and manipulated you to get what she wanted. She went into this with her eyes wide open. She knew exactly what the situation was and cared nothing at all about the pain she would cause your BS.

So, how exactly, does she warrant sympathy?

I get what you are saying about how the OW wasn't a great person. But, part of the problem is that I don't blame her for anything. She saw something she wanted and went after it. I was the one that made a commitment and allowed it to happen. If anything, I'm sympathetic towards her because I kept her involved in a relationship for 2 1/2 years in the prime of her life when she could been finding a real relationship to be in.

First off...dude you aren't that powerful. The xOW was an adult and made her own decisions based on what SHE wanted. And she used her "sexiness" and pure manipulation...creating these melodramas to keep YOU where she wanted you...to get what SHE wanted. She was no victim in this.

And she certainly doesn't deserve a pat on the back for "seeing what she wanted and went for it". Because in doing so, she trampled on your wife to get what she wanted. She decided your wife was worthless and need not be considered. She enabled the continued hurt and betrayal of your wife. She was a willing participant because SHE wanted to be.

That is the reality of the xOW...kinda makes the fantasy not so much...fun.

I am very attracted to my wife. I am more attracted now than I was even towards the begining of our relationship.

I think you need to closely exam why and when it clicked in your head that you could/should be attracted enough to another woman to cheat on your wife. I don't think you can ever be truely attracted to your wife like you want without really answering that for yourself. Don't just find rationalizations for what you did, but find meaningful breaking points that you can pinpoint and address.

Real and lasting attraction is mental and not physical.

Lord V...I couldn't agree more.

While OW & I do not physically resemble each other...most men would both say both OW & I on the sexy side..less on the "beautiful" side. So in that respect there is no discernable difference between us.

The allure, appeal was all in WH head.

I have to tell you that I find your posts to be some of the most refreshingly honest posts I have read in a long time. You have pointed out some things that many WS deal with and few want to admit. And, you seem to be working through them really well. I am glad you are challenging your beliefs and views of love, committment and the way you see your wife. THAT will help you heal.

I understood that the intense feelings of love that occur in the beginning of a relationship were temporary, and they would go away. No matter what relationship. Those feelings end, and are either replaced with a deeper love, or the relationship ends. Intellectually, I knew that. But when it happened in my marriage, I didn't understand how to deal with it either. I didn't know about date nights, or that I would have to tell my husband that I needed romance. I thought he should just know, and like you, felt like if I had to tell him, that it would not mean as much. But now, I see things much differently. I had to learn to change MY beliefs. I had to get brave enough to believe in my own needs and to learn to communicate them with my husband. If then, he chose to ignore me and not work to meet my needs, then I had to decide what to do next. My H refused to let me get close to him emotionally (pre A). He kept me at arm's length because he couldn't deal with the emotional closeness. After our A experience, our marriage is better than it has ever been, but it sure didn't happen overnight. I had to learn what needs I actually had, what was realistic for him to meet, how to communicate it to him, and what needs should be fulfilled by me. He did the same thing and for the first time, I really learned to listen to what he needed from me, and he learned how to let me be close to him, and learned to emotionally connect. We have truly learned to value each other.

I felt the same as you right after I confessed. I was such a wreck that I wasn't sure if I would ever feel that passion for my H that I felt for the OM. My A was similar to yours in that we had a lot of "real life" experiences and my needs were met with ease by him, and I loved him like crazy. We did not have sex, but the chemistry was off the charts. I wasn't sure I could ever get that back with my H and it scared me to death. Slowly it has begun to appear in my marriage. We are finally starting to reap the benefits of our hard work post C-day. It isn't the same as it was with OM, but I don't think it is supposed to be. The intensity is different. I think if we working keep at it, it will be SO much better. Keep working!! By the way, we have date nights, sexual goals (how many times, trying new things, etc)and a Marriage Maintenance plan we have co-written to help keep us on track.

Your situation sounds exactly like what is happening in my relationship. From what Ive heard from everyone the OW is a "freak". thats the word they used to describe her. I guess from just seeing the way she behaves one can tell very easily that she is sexually very bold and I can tell that my WS thinks that my sexuality cant compare to what hes getting from her. Im sure that his impression of me is due to the fact that I was a virgin when he met me, he was my first time. Honestly I knew absolutely nothing and thats what he loved about me. That no one else knew my body that he was the first. well we both went to foreign countries to study and I had an A with a guy and that completely opened my eyes. when i came back to him he knew I was different and I came clean. I later found out that he had a A as well. we've moved passed this but now hes caught up with this OW. Everyone else says Im sexy, everyone. Guys at work, on the street, everywhere I go hit on me...but his impression of me as his goody goody virgin girl has completely kept him from seeing how incredibly sexy I can be...and the boldness of the OW is not making it easier.

This strikes me as a bit of the Madonna Whore complex. I think many men emotionally feel this way...my H included. Back to back PG's didn't do much to support the concept that I'm sexy in my own way.

IMHO

validation makes a woman sexy.

haven't read this whole thing, but my guess is if you fantasize about your W your attraction level might change.

you know. I wasnt at all physically attracted to my H ...was involved with xOM prior to meeting H and xOM is physically exactly my type. Always was, even after he gained weight. My H is skinny and I felt too big next to him.

that interaction with how they make you feel is important.

it all changed though as I changed and healed.

you're 3 months out, 3 months out I was beyond foggy. You have a long way to go. And this question isn't really the real question.

the real question is...

can you find an excuse good enough to give up on your marriage and go be with OW?

that's the question.

it's called bargaining.

we all do it.

you're on the fence.

if you choose your W, then yes, you will eventually feel love/attraction for her. Hotness.

but you have to make a choice first.

the choice is not is she worthy of love or are you able to love, but ..what do you really want? and who do you want to be?

because yes, she is worthy. And yes you are able.

the last two questions will really determine your course.

jmho.

good luck.

ps. I really wonder if you don't feel like your wife has been giving you an F for a long time and the OW gives you an A.

???

[This message edited by Maia at 2:40 PM, April 7th (Monday)]

BS here, didn't see a stop sign so thought I'd drop in.

Of course she was fighting to win you - she was an interloper. Your wife shouldn't have to fight for you - you took vows that you would never place her in that situation. You need to really understand that you placed this OW at an unfair advantage, and that you will not heal your marriage until you knock the OW off the un-earned pedestal you've placed her on. Period. Knock her off of there.

landabear,

Come on in. If you can help me, or something I say helps you, then we're both better for it.

I want to take a little bit of an issue with one thing that you said and explain where I'm coming from on the OW.

1. I do disagree with you a little bit that my wife shouldn't have to fight for me, and that's based upon what I've learned going through this. I want to make absolutely clear that my wife shouldn't have to fight to keep me out of another woman's bed. That you are 1000% accurate about. But, I think that both spouses have to fight to keep their marriage alive. I think that's where I got into problems is because I didn't fight. I just thought it was supposed to be easy and natural. If I am to have learned anything from my affair, then it is that I need to fight for my marriage more than I did. I assume that at some point down the road, we're going to have other difficulties (I pray its not another affair), but when whatever it is happens then we're both going to have fight for our marriage.

2. There are days that I sit around and slam the other woman in my mind. Then part of me says to myself, "If she was that damn bad, why were you living your life for her for 2 1/2 years." I understand that part of that thinking is still part of the "foggy" stuff.

I guess the real challenge has kind of already been discussed just in other ways. I was "in love" (infatuated) with her because she only showed me the good parts of her. I get that. But, that's why she's on a pedestal. That's all I've ever known her to be. I'm sure if I would have moved in with her, she would have gotten knocked off of that pedestal. And I'm just not real sure how to do it.

Having said that, the advice that was given above to focus on the great things about my wife makes more sense to me, and seems like that might be more effective, than for me to sit around and try to come up with reasons to hate the OW. But, stick around, I'll have a day in the next few weeks when I'll want to come on here and talk about how big of a psycho she is or something like that. I have those days.

You know why? Honest-to-god, straight from the Holder Of The Vagina Privileges: I knew, deep down, that I was fighting a losing game with him.

Can I ask you about that? Was that only after the affair began or was it before? I started to lose this feeling for my wife before, and like I've said, rather than fixing it I looked elsewhere.

Stop wanting porn star sex. Not "stop expressing it", make yourself understand that it's not going to happen. Stop wishing for it, pining after it, thinking about it. Because as long as you have that in your head as your ideal, your BS can sense that and will throttle back her own feelings. She will sense that she's not measuring up to the images in your head and protect herself by not even trying to swing from the chandelier.

As Bulldozer said, love is a verb. It is. Start loving her. Not telling her you love her, LOVE HER. Every time you think of the OW, do something nice for your wife. Call her and tell her that you hope she's having a good day. Bring her flowers. Rub her feet. Give her a hug. Actually DO things that display love to her. Eventually, you will change your thinking and, sensing that, she'll come around.

That's great advice. Thanks. I don't know if this is exactly what you're saying, but this is how I read it. You know how when you were single and wanted a boyfriend/girlfriend, you could never find one. But, as soon as you stopped focusing on it and looking for it, all of a sudden you had plenty of opportunities. Maybe if I would just stop sitting around saying, "I wish my wife screwed my brains out like the OW did" and actually did something to earn that, she may very well do that.

Like I said, I don't know if that's what you're saying, but that's how I took it. But, let me just keep on thinking that way if you meant something differently

Hi ES,

I don't have time to read every reply on this thread, but judging from the ones I did read, you've gotten some excellent advice.

The one thing that jumped out at me was your family background. I think it's pretty interesting that you grew up feeling that you had an emotionally needy, smothering mother and then went on to marry someone who sounds almost like the polar opposite, only to end up seeking out a needy, manipulative woman (who seems to leave chaos in her wake)... I'm also intrigued by the fact that you got married fairly young and to the first woman you had a real relationship with.

I'm guessing you're covering this in IC?

We've talked about it some, but not a whole lot. Its as though we've identified it as an issue, but we haven't really worked on it, and that's my fault. I see her once a week. Maybe for about 10 minutes per session, we actually work on something. The rest of the time, I just go in there and ramble on about missing this, or wanting that, or not understanding this or that. Its like I fill up with all of this crap in my head over the course of a week and then I just go in there for vomit for about 45 minutes. (Sorry for the visual analogy.)

When we do talk about stuff like that, I get frustrated because I'm saying to myself, "OK, I get that I kind of had a messed up adolescence. But, why don't you just tell me how to fix it?" I know its not that easy, but that's really about how far we've gotten. To be honest, as often as it comes up in this thread, I think its probably something I will talk about next time, because it seems to be a hell of a lot more important than I thought it was.

esmdqt, I read that you were an only child with an intense, difficult relationship with your mother. I am as well. My H is the opposite of that which is what attracted me as well, however, I have learned through my IC sessions, that when a primary care giver has a very challenged relationship with a child, dramatic, hot, cold, lots of emotional upheaval, that's what a child learns to equate as love. Any relationship that lacks the drama can be seen as boring or not "true" love. I needed to program myself to accept that the more "intense" a relationship does not equate to value and worth. I don't know if that applies in your case but sounded familiar.

Very much the same thing. My wife is not dramatic. She's calm. She's stable. So, yeah, that is exactly what I'm dealing with. Have you had much success in dealing with it? What types of things have you done to address it. You can PM about it you would prefer.

[This message edited by esmdqt at 3:02 PM, April 7th (Monday)]

esmdqt,

Out of curiosity, would you still be with the OW if she hadn't broken things off with you?

That's tough for me to say, but if I had to guess I would say probably so. I can remember being very unhappy in the last 2 months of our relationship. I thought I had finally gotten to the point in December that I could leave her. Then, she sent me an email that was very heart-felt (or at least it appeared to be). I still told her that I didn't want to be with her. But, then over the course of the next few weeks, I really started to miss her, and I really started to think about her being with another man. I truly believe that a big part of me staying in the affair, and the withdrawal that I'm going through, is because I just never wanted her to be with anyone else. I spent considerably more time thinking about not wanting her to be with someone else than I did actually wanting to be with her.

Now, I recognize that makes me an enormous a-hole, but it was there. However, it was those same feelings that caused me to always say that I needed to stay with my wife. I just felt like wanting someone because you didn't want them to be with someone else is not real love, and in fact may very well be the opposite of love.

On the other hand, there was not one day that I stayed with my wife because I wanted to keep her from someone else. In fact, there were days that I thought about leaving so that she could find someone else. I stayed with her because I wanted her to be with ME, not because I didn't want her to be with someone else. If I had to summarize what was in my head during the affair for 2 1/2 years trying to decide what in the world to do. That is exactly how I would have described my thoughts, and why I stayed "trapped."

I know you probably wanted a simple yes or no. If that is what you want, I would love to be able to say "No. I would not have been with her." But, if I'm being honest with myself, and knowing how selfish and addicted I was to her, my best guess is that I probably would still be involved with her. Having said that, now that I know I can live without her, now that the affair has been exposed to my wife and she's willing to fight for our marriage, if the OW called me today and begged for me to be back in her life, it wouldn't take me 2 seconds to say "No, thanks."

(Sorry for the longer than necessary explanation.)

[This message edited by esmdqt at 3:15 PM, April 7th (Monday)]

But, I think that both spouses have to fight to keep their marriage alive.

No, they have to *work* at it.

This is completely different than fight. Fight implies offense and defense. There is only one team in a marriage, not opposing forces.

but when whatever it is happens then we're both going to have fight for our marriage.

The work should be in progress LONG before something bad pops up. It's not a war, from battle to battle - it's a garden you have to tend. You can't plant seeds and come back 3 years later to fruit - you have to tend to it, every day. Water it, pull the weeds, pick the ripe fruit, shoo off the squirrels.

Can I ask you about that? Was that only after the affair began or was it before? I started to lose this feeling for my wife before, and like I've said, rather than fixing it I looked elsewhere.

Before. From even before we had kids. It was subtle at first, but towards the end...it took me a while to even feel like a woman, after the divorce. I just felt asexual.

During the marriage I thought it was due to our work schedules, or the birth control I was on, or exhaustion from chasing babies....but honestly, it was because each session of sex felt like an audition for the role of Sexy Wife.

The difference is even greater now that I am in a relationship where I and my contributions are respected. At times in my marriage I felt like I was carrying this *burden* of Being Everything - wife, mother, daughter-in-law, worker bee....and now I'm just ME.

Right now, your wife is still reeling. She is still trying to find her "me", because the last three years of her life were a sham, a farce, a tragic comedy written by people who didn't bother to tell her she was the star.

Since you have been in marriage counseling while the affair was on-going, you MUST acknowledge that your actions affected her behavior and her feelings *even if she didn't have explicit knowledge of them*.

So, when you started down the path of the A, you also started your perception of her AND her own reactions to you down a complimentary path. You can't expect her to now go back to the beginning and meet you at the top of the hill.

WOW...I love this site!!! The posts have been amazing and I'm learning so much...

Thank you, esmdqt...You're responses are honest and very well communicated. I know you'll continue to get great advice and you're helping others by your posts!!! I have learned something from each response. You guys continue to amaze me!

I agree completely. I've gotten more help from interacting with the people on here over the last couple of days than I have gotten in 2 1/2 affair books, 2 marriage books, 11 months of marriage counseling, and about 6 months of IC. I can honestly say that I am probably more optimistic about my wife and I being able to work things out now than I have probably been in 3 years, which is even before the affair began.

Thanks to everyone.

[This message edited by esmdqt at 3:21 PM, April 7th (Monday)]

I was "in love" (infatuated) with her because she only showed me the good parts of her. I get that. But, that's why she's on a pedestal. That's all I've ever known her to be.

The only reason the OW is on the pedestal is because you choose to keep her there. To remove her from the pedestal means you finally have to come out of denial about the kind of person the OW really is and that you threw away so much for such a worthless person.

You've already admitted she was a liar and a manipulator. Liars and manipulators do not deserve to be idolized for their "good" side.

welcome esmdqt, I also posted this in your other thread, but I am also posting here.

I am FWW. I had withdrawal period of 3 months then xOM became indifferent at 6 months mark, at the 1 year mark, I consider xOM as nonexistent. Good thing he moved away from me. (I had 7.5 year PA and ended it 1.5 years ago.) During withdrawal, my body was longing for xOM, but the important thing was to grieve the loss of OP and then you will be able to focus on your core problem and then shift the love to your W. You will probably go through the SWIRL. (Shattering - Withdrawal - Internalizing - Rage - Lift/Letting go) I will bump my thread. Please avoid triggers that remind you the A.

I also had to let go of tiny hope to be together in the future. (It also helped when xOM told me that we would not be together.)

I had abandonment issue and co-dependent issue from childhood and I worked on it and then I was able to focus on my H and M.

As for book, "Language of letting go" by Melody Beattie, and "Journey from abandonment to healing" by Susan Anderson helped me. Many people also suggests, Not Just Friends by Shirley Glass.

Dear Es,

There's over thirty years difference in our ages, so that gives me a chance to pass on some hard won advice to both you and Mrs. Es.

Guys....you admit that she works nearly 70 hours a week and you work 55 hours a week.

Why?

WS and I were also very committed to our jobs....and that cost me 23 years. The job ALWAYS came first with WS. He needed that validation to live. After I had kids I learned that my two little rug-rats were more important than a job. I was raising the next generation and I wanted to do a good job. But WS was still "job first".

Now....decades later and through much therapy we learned that we never took enough time for ourselves. That we never "paused" enough to reconnect with each other.

And that there is always someone else to do your job...but never someone else to be the spouse/parent to your spouse/kids.

Stop working so much. I am a caretaker for very, very, very rich people who have vacation homes in my area and you know what? All the toys and big, "look at me I'm rich" houses can't make up for how miserable and lonely most of them are.

And your original question to us was how to stop dreaming about the OW.

Hon...the only way you will do that is when you realise that she was a manipulative, mean person.

1) She knew you were married but went ahead and tried to break up your marriage. If she was a truly nice/caring person she would empathized with the pain she was causing your wife.

2) She manipulated you.

3) She thrived on chaos and drama. Yup...she's good spouse material.

4) She got fired from her job.

5) If you guys were having so much sex...when did you find the time to talk about stuff other than sex? Like conversations that required deep thinking? Did she meet your intellectual needs?

6) You said that you talked a lot in the beginning..but that it was about having an affair. Sorry....but that's nothing more than a verbal foreplay. Doesn't count as grounds for a friendship.

7) WHY would you want to be in a mature relationship where the other partner constantly needs to be saved from something?

What....can't she make adult decisions about her life on her own?

And off topic here.....hon..if YOU thought your married life was boring....don't you think your wife found it boring also? It take two to make life boring....

And last but not least.....don't ASSUME you know what your wife is thinking.

We all know what ASSUME means.

k9

Can I ask you about that? Was that only after the affair began or was it before? I started to lose this feeling for my wife before, and like I've said, rather than fixing it I looked elsewhere

My H checked out long before his A. IMO he really did not check into our M until the xmow wanted more from him then he was willing to give.

I think you need to closely exam why and when it clicked in your head that you could/should be attracted enough to another woman to cheat on your wife. I don't think you can ever be truely attracted to your wife like you want without really answering that for yourself. Don't just find rationalizations for what you did, but find meaningful breaking points that you can pinpoint and address.

Real and lasting attraction is mental and not physical.

I've thought a lot about that, more as a way to avoid this happening again in the future. My wife and I were both killing ourselves at work. I started to have doubts about our relationship for the first time. Then all of a sudden younger, sexy, sexually forward person started worshipping the ground that I walked on. She started telling me she had dreams about screwing me. She started sending me provocative photos to my phone. She started to tell me what she would do to me if I would let her. You're right, its not a rationalization, but it explores how it happened. Part of the problem is that she backed up what she said she was going to do. So, it went from fantasy to reality, even though it was in the context of an affair, which is in and of itself a fantasy.

But, now its like I need to go back in time, and pretend like all of that didn't happen. I mean I know that I need to remember the affair so that it doesn't happen again. But, its almost like I need to unlearn the sexual connection that I had with the OW, because it was so based on a purely physical attraction between us and it was part of a unrealistic or unsustainable situation. It feels like I need to unlearn that so that I can get back to a more normal emotional attraction that husband/wife should have.

While OW & I do not physically resemble each other...most men would both say both OW & I on the sexy side..less on the "beautiful" side. So in that respect there is no discernable difference between us.

The allure, appeal was all in WH head.

Its interesting you bring that up. I shared in the very first post how completely different my wife and the OW are physically. I'll go into a little more detail.

W- 5'7", skinny, athletic, fair skin, blonde hair, blue eyes, doesn't wear make up, dresses professional, fairly small chest, reserved, and quiet.

OW- 5'1", curvy, dark hair, dark eyes, used to wear makeup but didn't wear much around me because she knew I hated it, dresses pretty provocative, D-cups, loud, and loves to be the center of attention.

They are opposite in every way. Every girl that I had ever dated was like my wife physically -- blonde hair, blue eyes, similar build, never cared about boobs much. I was a butt guy. So, that's what I had for the 10 years or so of sex life.

Then all of a sudden, when I began with the OW, I am crazy about dark hair, dark skin, etc. I'm a boob guy all of a sudden. I never cared about what kind of shoes any girlfriend I ever had wore, but now I get turned on by just seeing a girl in 3-4 inch heels, because that's what the OW wore (whenever I wanted her to wear them).

I wonder if that is part of it. I wonder if that is part of why the newness seemed so new, and why she seemed so different, and why I'm still at a point where I feel like I want more of it.