SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

But, now its like I need to go back in time, and pretend like all of that didn't happen.

Please don't do that. It takes far more courage to face the tough questions about *you* now. If you 'pretend it never happenned' you don't address what it was inside yourself that allowed *you* to give *you* the permission to have an A instead of working on it in other healthy ways with your W.

Don't put off the healing because you deserve to start healing now.

I mean I know that I need to remember the affair so that it doesn't happen again.

See above. Maybe it's just symantics, but it's not the affair you need to remember. It's what is/was hurting inside you that allowed you to cross that line.

You deserve a fuller, happier life than the emotional and mental turmoil you are going through now. Yes, you have to work through it to get to that point but it is so worth it in the end.

[This message edited by ohpuhlease at 8:06 PM, April 7th (Monday)]

With the exception of OW, the women you gravitated to were very similar in appearance. Why? What attracted you to your wife specifically?

Hint: Looking for more than just "physical" attributes here.

I have to tell you that I find your posts to be some of the most refreshingly honest posts I have read in a long time. You have pointed out some things that many WS deal with and few want to admit. And, you seem to be working through them really well. I am glad you are challenging your beliefs and views of love, committment and the way you see your wife. THAT will help you heal.

Thanks. It doesn't do me any good to give BS responses. I need to put out there what's really in my head, so that I can get some people to tell me to wake up, grow up, listen up, etc. This has been so helpful that I feel like I should ask for the $150/hour back from my IC and spread it around to the people that have taken the time to respond.

I understood that the intense feelings of love that occur in the beginning of a relationship were temporary, and they would go away. No matter what relationship. Those feelings end, and are either replaced with a deeper love, or the relationship ends. Intellectually, I knew that. But when it happened in my marriage, I didn't understand how to deal with it either. I didn't know about date nights, or that I would have to tell my husband that I needed romance. I thought he should just know, and like you, felt like if I had to tell him, that it would not mean as much.

Really only the difference between you and I is that I didn't know. And part of my problem is that now I read what you're talking about, and I believe it, but the only relationship any of that has ever happened to me is the one with my wife. Its all still just very weird to me.

So, I understand it, but its still new. And I don't know any way to say it other than its disappointing on some level. Its such a wonderful feeling to have a new love. I guess its just not realistic, and the goal is to find that type of excitement and fulfillment in a more mature love. I guess the only way for me to find out is to work as hard as I can to get there, and hope that everything I read and everything everyone says about having a happier marriage after this type of ordeal is true.

It sounds like you've been through it. So, I guess you're telling me its a real possibility if we/I work hard to make it that way. Thank you for sharing part of your story with me.

Can you share more about your Marriage Maintenance Plan? Or is there a book or website that you got the idea from. That sounds very interestig to me, and could be something that could be very helpful to us.

But, now its like I need to go back in time, and pretend like all of that didn't happen.

I don't know of anyone who forgot what their first time was like in a sexual nature be it good or bad.

I remember the first time I had what I considered to be mind blowing sex before I met and M my H. I recall us having a strong physical connection with emotional bonding and I knew I was not mature enough to M him. When we officially broke things off I moved forward with my life, not without withdrawal, but I moved forward. I was able to accept my H for who he was physically and emotionally when we met. The other guy accepted me for being a *sexy* woman whereas my H accepts me as being the mother of his kids. Big, big difference in perception between the two of them when referencing me. I will not forget him because we were on again off again for many years but he does not live in my head and he will never be more important to me than my H and kids.

I believe in most cases when more value can be mentally assigned to the BS more than the AP then and only then are you able to move forward. Right now, the AP is more valuable in bed then your BS is in or out of bed. IOW your BS would need to receive 100% in ten areas to be valuable to you whereas the AP only needs to complete 2 areas to receive 100% and that is be great at sex and need you.

I did this exercise prior to M'ing my H. He automatically received a value of 80% because we were engaged to be M while everyone else received 40-50%. H went to 100% after we were M and wavered between 80-100% because he was my H and we have bad days. Guys who would hit on me after I got M rated no more than 30% because of my list of reasons such as hitting on an obviously M woman. By setting up a system of value for me made it so that no man was more valuable to me more than my H.

I am also a numbers person who tutors math and I did the one thing that made the most sense to me .

Your situation sounds exactly like what is happening in my relationship. From what Ive heard from everyone the OW is a "freak". thats the word they used to describe her. I guess from just seeing the way she behaves one can tell very easily that she is sexually very bold and I can tell that my WS thinks that my sexuality cant compare to what hes getting from her. Im sure that his impression of me is due to the fact that I was a virgin when he met me, he was my first time. Honestly I knew absolutely nothing and thats what he loved about me. That no one else knew my body that he was the first. well we both went to foreign countries to study and I had an A with a guy and that completely opened my eyes. when i came back to him he knew I was different and I came clean. I later found out that he had a A as well. we've moved passed this but now hes caught up with this OW. Everyone else says Im sexy, everyone. Guys at work, on the street, everywhere I go hit on me...but his impression of me as his goody goody virgin girl has completely kept him from seeing how incredibly sexy I can be...and the boldness of the OW is not making it easier.

Thanks for sharing that with me. I was #2 for my wife, so not a virgin, but she was pretty inexperienced. The OW and I were a lot alike. We both had our fun in college. It wasn't the first time either one of us had heard we knew what we were doing. But, together, we did take it to another level than what we had experienced. Or else that is true for me and she was just telling me a bunch of BS. Although I have to believe she stuck around for 2 1/2 years for something, and I'm not all that damn interesting.

But, I think what your post said is like what a lot of women have told me on here. Basically, the problem I have with my wife is because I'm seeing what I choose to see. I don't know if that's applies to my situation, but I know that as soon as my wife gets back to town this week we're going to talk about it. I know this may not be at the top of her list of things to work on right now, and if its not then I need to patient. But, this has given me hope for the future.

As for your situation, I've reached out to some of my college friends who did marry the "freaks." Its only been about 3 of them, so I'm not dealing with a huge sample size. But, every single one of them has said that it gets old. In fact, 2 of them laughed at me when I asked them. I'm sure all of you have heard guys look at Halle Berry or Jessica Alba or pick your favorite sex symbol and say, "You know, some guy is tired of fucking that." Every guy that I've talked to about this has told me that its absolutely true. I obviously never got to that point with the OW, but it sounds like I would have gotten there.

I would encourage your WS to read this thread. Its been an eye-opening experience for me.

I lost track of this thread probably on page 4, but one thing leapt out at me that may help you. I'm a BW, and you sound a lot like my FWH -especially in the sense that you appear to respect your wife a lot, and don't want to "impose" your need for a more sexually charged marriage by asking her to do things she doesn't seem interested in doing.

Are you sure that she's really not interested? Or could she just be really embarrassed to address that aspect of her sexuality? I ask because for more than a decade, I had fantasies of having "dirty sex" with my husband - but he has always been such a considerate lover, and always puts my needs first. Unfortunately, I "needed" something more raw and less emotional (on occasion at least), but was too embarrassed to ask for it. I hinted a lot - and I mean a lot - but he never seemed to pick up on the hints, and our lovemaking was mostly of the tender, loving, "connected" type. I spent years being afraid to spit out what I wanted - and can you believe that I never once had an orgasm through intercourse?

I don't know your wife, and I may have nothing in common with her in this regard. But I know that I "blossomed" sexually when I wrote a letter to FWH telling him specifically what I had in mind - I get turned on by porn, I like toys, and I most of all love watching him get off - I feed off of being a part of that. When he finally heard all this, and truly realized he wouldn't be "imposing" on me by indulging in his dirty sex fantasies as well - we entered new territory in our marriage and had a hell of a great time. I love, love, love feeling like my H can't get enough of me - and when he stopped being such a considerate lover all the time, that's how I felt. Of course, I still need the occasional intense emotional sex that we had before.

Could this be what's happened in your M? Are you sure your wife doesn't have a desire for "porno sex" in her, but can't acknowledge it or bring herself to express it with you?

If she does, you obviously have to approach it so delicately, given that you had this with another OW - you have to avoid any sense that you want something from your W that you had with OW. The last thing you want is for your W to think you're comparing her to the OW in this way, because that will drive her sexuality even further into the dark. But when you do make love to her, do you make her feel like you are so turned on by her, and want to just ravage her body, and you can't wait any longer to take her? If she witnesses your intense desire for her (even if you have to fake it to make it), you might be surprised at her own physical response.

I'm not trying to offend anyone here by suggesting that something's wrong with your wife if in fact she doesn't have the same kind of drive I had - and I am not letting you off the hook for your A in any sense. Just thought my experience might give you something to consider. I hope I'm making sense tonight, and sorry if I'm not!

This strikes me as a bit of the Madonna Whore complex. I think many men emotionally feel this way...my H included. Back to back PG's didn't do much to support the concept that I'm sexy in my own way.

IMHO

I touched on this a little bit earlier, but I realize that was many pages ago, so I'll cut and paste it.

You bring up Madonna-whore complex, which is interesting. I've read some about it, and it doesn't fit me. My wife is nothing like my mother. In fact, she's the complete opposite. In reality, the relationship that I had with the OW was much more similar with the relationship I have with my mother (hot and cold, a lot of drama, arguing, etc.). Also, it doesn't fit, because I did have a very close emotional affair with the other woman, which I understand is not typical of how one would feel about the "whore" (and I say that only as it is used in the psychological term).

You might be right. If so, I'd like to look into it a little more. But, either I don't have a good understanding of the Madonna-whore complex, or it seems like I've almost got the reverse of that. Am I thinking wrong about this?

So what is your father like? You said you were closer to him, why?

can you find an excuse good enough to give up on your marriage and go be with OW?

When I had the opportunity, the only things I could come up with were:

1. To have a great sex life.

2. To keep her from being with someone else.

I never thought those were good enough to leave. There were other things that we had, but nothing that I couldn't get from my wife. These were the only things that I couldn't get from my wife.

the choice is not is she worthy of love or are you able to love, but ..what do you really want? and who do you want to be?

When I had the choice, the answer to that question almost always my wife. Not always, but almost. Maybe 70-80% of the time. But, I wanted a satisfying sexual relationship, and really until reading this thread I didn't know if that was possible.

I still don't know if it will happen, but after reading this I know its possible.

No, they have to *work* at it.

This is completely different than fight. Fight implies offense and defense. There is only one team in a marriage, not opposing forces.

You're right. I agree with you.

Before. From even before we had kids. It was subtle at first, but towards the end...it took me a while to even feel like a woman, after the divorce. I just felt asexual.

During the marriage I thought it was due to our work schedules, or the birth control I was on, or exhaustion from chasing babies....but honestly, it was because each session of sex felt like an audition for the role of Sexy Wife.

The difference is even greater now that I am in a relationship where I and my contributions are respected. At times in my marriage I felt like I was carrying this *burden* of Being Everything - wife, mother, daughter-in-law, worker bee....and now I'm just ME.

Right now, your wife is still reeling. She is still trying to find her "me", because the last three years of her life were a sham, a farce, a tragic comedy written by people who didn't bother to tell her she was the star.

Since you have been in marriage counseling while the affair was on-going, you MUST acknowledge that your actions affected her behavior and her feelings *even if she didn't have explicit knowledge of them*.

So, when you started down the path of the A, you also started your perception of her AND her own reactions to you down a complimentary path. You can't expect her to now go back to the beginning and meet you at the top of the hill.

That is so enlightening for me. I can't tell you how much this has opened my eyes as to my level of responsibility for this issue in our marriage. Obviously, I know that the affair was my responsibility. But, I really had no understanding about how I contributed to setting the stage for it.

Beach,

That thread was awesome. Thanks for bumping it. I wish I would have had that 3 months ago. It sounds like I'm going through EXACTLY what you went through. If there are any other threads where you shared your story or if you have any other advice, please bump it or share it. Thanks a lot.

I keep coming back to these thoughts: that the OW's appeal is based on the dysfunction in her reaching out to the dysfunction in you from your childhood. Everything you say is making me think that some of the appeal of her neediness and volatility is that it touches something that feels kindred in you.

I mean, she sounds pretty awful, to be honest, except maybe in bed. And as others have pointed out, that might very well not sustain in a long-term relationship (although personally I suspect the more likely scenario is that if your relationship waned in drama, she'd find someone else to sustain it with). Honestly, if you hadn't been screwing her, or wanting to screw her, would you even have liked her?

And I think if you and your IC aren't getting at this, you need an IC with more (as one of the LTA posters called it recently) firepower. Someone who is going to make you look at the seriously hard shit.

I'm not diagnosing the ow, and I'm thinking more of tendencies than a real disorder, but a lot of what you say about her would seem to fit some of this mold:

Histrionic personality disorder

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Histrionic personality disorder

Classification & external resources

ICD-10 F60.4

ICD-9 301.50

MeSH D006677

Histrionic personality disorder (HPD) is a personality disorder characterized by a pattern of excessive emotionality and attention-seeking, including an excessive need for approval and inappropriate seductiveness, usually beginning in early adulthood.

The essential feature of the histrionic personality disorder is a pervasive and excessive pattern of emotionality and attention-seeking behavior. These individuals are lively, dramatic, enthusiastic, and flirtatious. They may be inappropriately sexually provocative, express strong emotions with an impressionistic style, and be easily influenced by others.

The literature [which?] differentiates HPD according to gender. Women with HPD are described as self-centered, self-indulgent, and intensely dependent on others. They are emotionally labile and cling to others in the context of immature relationships. Females with HPD over-identify with others; they project their own unrealistic, fantasied intentions onto people with whom they are involved. Pathology increases with the level of intimacy in relationships. Women with HPD may show inappropriate and intense anger. They may engage in manipulative suicide threats as one aspect of general manipulative interpersonal behavior.[1]

Males with HPD usually present problems of identity crisis, disturbed relationships, and lack of impulse control. They have antisocial tendencies and are inclined to exploit physical symptoms. These men are emotionally immature, dramatic, and shallow.[2] Both men and women with HPD engage in disinhibited behavior.[3]

People with this disorder are usually able to function at a high level and can be successful socially and at work. People with histrionic personality disorder usually have good social skills - but they tend use these skills to manipulate other people and become the center of attention. [4] Furthermore, histrionic personality disorder may affect a person's social or romantic relationships or their ability to cope with losses or failures. People with this disorder may seek treatment for depression when romantic relationships end, although this is by no means a feature exclusive to this disorder. They often fail to see their own personal situation realistically, instead tending to dramatize and exaggerate their difficulties. Responsibility for failure or disappointment is usually blamed on others. They may go through frequent job changes, as they become easily bored and have trouble dealing with frustration. Because they tend to crave novelty and excitement, they may place themselves in risky situations. All of these factors may lead to greater risk of developing depression.

Beach,

That thread was awesome. Thanks for bumping it. I wish I would have had that 3 months ago. It sounds like I'm going through EXACTLY what you went through. If there are any other threads where you shared your story or if you have any other advice, please bump it or share it. Thanks a lot.

I just bumped 2 more for you. Good luck with your healing journey.

Can you share more about your Marriage Maintenance Plan? Or is there a book or website that you got the idea from. That sounds very interestig to me, and could be something that could be very helpful to us.

Sure. During our MC, our counselor talked about establishing law and order in our marriage. That at the present time, it was chaos, and we needed to sit down together and come up with some structure to help us reach our marital goals. Our goals included having a passionate, romantic and emotionally close marriage.

So, we sat down with a legal pad and started working it out. For example, my H previously traveled with his job about 220 days of the year, mostly in Europe, for 2-3 weeks at a time. That was a huge issue for us, and a major contributing factor to us growing apart. His current job requires travel, but not near as much, and he has some freedom to pick and choose. So, we made an agreement that he will only take 6 business trips/year and I will go with him on three of them.

I have always handled our finances and at times, that is overwhelming. So, we have a monthly financial meeting where we both sit down and go through all of our expenses and we work on our financial goals together.

We have a goal for how many times we have sex per week, and we talk openly about what we like/want and what we would want to try. We make that time together a priority instead of a quicky between commercials during the news (unless of course, well, you know!! ) Seriously, we put on nice music and do things we did when we were dating. Keep in mind, your biggest sex organ is your brain.

I love romance and I need it in my marriage, so we have a date night once a week. We take turns planning it, and we do NOT miss it. We sometimes re-schedule it to a different day, but we do it. We do fun things, and try not to get into the same old rut of dinner and a movie. We take our bikes to the park, we take walks around ponds, hold hands and act like kids. One time, I bought us water colors and we had to pick a slip of paper out of a bowl (they all had emotions written on them like happy, peaceful, free, love, etc), and we each had to draw a picture of what that emotion would look like to us. It was really fun.

We have a goal to read one marriage book per yea. We have had a tough time with this one, but we are working on it. Passionate Marriage by David Schnarch was the best, most life changing book I have ever read, aside from the bible. I highly recommend it. It is big and thick, but considering the issues you are dealing with as far as the sexuality thing, I think this would be a really good fit, because Dr. Schnarch works with couples having sexual difficulties and addresses other relationship issues that are present and reflected in the way couples relate to each other sexually. I cannot say enough positive things about this book.

Anyway, those are some examples of what we have done. If I think of others, I will let you know. This was really helpful for us.

Guys....you admit that she works nearly 70 hours a week and you work 55 hours a week.

Why?

WS and I were also very committed to our jobs....and that cost me 23 years. The job ALWAYS came first with WS.

That's a great question. Before the affair we used to talk about how were just in the rat race. I think that is one thing that may change because of the affair that may not have ever changed otherwise. We're both pretty highly educated, both have very good but demanding jobs. My wife said the other day that she feels like our life is just passing us by. I think we're slowly getting it.

But, you know how it is, get out of college, you have a mountain of debt, you buy a house right at the peak of the bubble, and you just keep trying to reach the top of your profession. There is no question that for too long we both lived to work (her more than me), instead of working to live. I think we're finally realizing that's just not worth it.

Money never has been all that big of a factor to us. She's always had it, and never put a big emphasis on it. I've never had it, so I know I don't need it. It was more of an issue of just being driven to be good at our jobs more than having anything to do with financial concerns.

1) She knew you were married but went ahead and tried to break up your marriage. If she was a truly nice/caring person she would empathized with the pain she was causing your wife.

2) She manipulated you.

3) She thrived on chaos and drama. Yup...she's good spouse material.

I understand everything you are saying (and definitely much better than I did before I started this thread). For some reason, I just don't like thinking bad of her. Maybe I need to do it to get me past this. I would really just not like to think of her at all. I'm trying to learn from what everyone is telling me, so it sounds like you all are saying that I need to train myself to hate her so that I will stop thinking about her. I'll give it a shot.

5) If you guys were having so much sex...when did you find the time to talk about stuff other than sex? Like conversations that required deep thinking? Did she meet your intellectual needs?

Well, we talked about sex a lot. We talked about what we had done that we liked, what we wanted to try the next time, making plans to do it the next time, etc. I wouldn't say that I ever really had "deep" conversations with her beyond our relationshp and what was going on with it.

She didn't really meet my intellectual needs even though she's a really smart person. I'm kind of in a job that meets my intellectual needs, so when I'm not working, I'm not really looking to be intellectually challenged. So, hoenstly, when I would hang out with her and we would just "people watch," or talk about some celebrity gossip or something like that, it was almost just a welcome relief.

7) WHY would you want to be in a mature relationship where the other partner constantly needs to be saved from something?

What....can't she make adult decisions about her life on her own?

I think, as has been mentioned, something is not right in my wiring that makes that attractive for me. Its something I guess I need to work on, but at the time, I just thought it was part of being a "good guy." Someone needs your help, you try to help them. I totally got a "high" off of being able to take care of her.

But, you hit on the overarching issue of everything. I didn't want a mature relationship. I had a very mature relationship with my wife from almost the outset, and that got boring. So, I wanted young love again. I knew in my gut that it wasn't sustainable, and I knew that it wasn't something that I would want forever. But, I didn't want it to end when I was in the middle of it.

And, as you can see, in many ways I still long for it. Its just needing to mature and grow up a lot. I can recognize it, but for some reason I still can't fully accomplish it.

And off topic here.....hon..if YOU thought your married life was boring....don't you think your wife found it boring also? It take two to make life boring....

She did. I know she did. We both just let other things become a priority. Please know that I'm not saying that as excusing the affair, and I take 100% responsibility. But, I remember reading someone who said that she wasn't happy that her husband had an affair, but she was glad something happened. (I don't remember if that was on this board or even this thread.) But, I think because of this we have a chance to have the kind of marriage that we never would have had if it didn't happen. Again, I never should have done it, but I think a lot of good can come from it.

Thanks a lot for your response and advice.

[This message edited by esmdqt at 2:49 PM, April 8th (Tuesday)]

Well, we talked about sex a lot. We talked about what we had done that we liked, what we wanted to try the next time, making plans to do it the next time, etc.

Was that a new or otherwise singular experience for you? That much sex, and sex talk, and sexual content, and sexual focus, period, in a relationship? Were you also sexually inexperienced before marriage, like your wife?

How do you think your wife might respond sexually if she were to get involved with a man as aggressive as the OW in this situation? It sounds like you spent your childhood in a pursuer/distancer relationship with your mother. Then you, the distancer, got married to another distancer - or, perhaps, just a nice, normal, well-adjusted person who was neither pursuer nor distancer. So, then you had an affair with another pursuer. Perhaps your wife would respond sexually to being pursued, as well. Are you capable of pursuit?

Also, remind me of where your wife is in all this? Not fully informed, is that right?

[This message edited by ladyvorkosigan at 3:47 PM, April 8th (Tuesday)]

With the exception of OW, the women you gravitated to were very similar in appearance. Why?

I don't know. That's just what I was attracted to. They weren't carboard cutouts of the other, but they were far more similar than the OW. Blonde hair, blue eyes, skinny, nice butt. That's what I looked for. Its just what I always liked.

What attracted you to your wife specifically?

Hint: Looking for more than just "physical" attributes here.

At first, I was attracted to her primarily based on her physical appearance. I remember the first time I saw and thinking "Wow! She's really cute." I started talking to her immediately and found her interesting. She has a great sense of humor, and the exact same as mine. Unbelievably smart. The more we got to know one another, we had a ton of things in common. We liked the same music, the same TV shows, everything. We could just talk with one another about anything for hours.

As time went on, I just loved her maturity. I loved the way that she loved me. She didn't play games. She didn't ask for something just to ask for it. We just treated each other with a great deal of respect for a long, long time. (I realize that I definitely stopped doing that, by the way.) I knew she would be the perfect mother. She is without a doubt a great spouse and partner. All of that is why I "love" her.

Is why I "love" her different from asking me why I'm "attracted" to her? I have no idea, but that seems like a great question for me to try find an answer to right now. It seems like those two things don't necessarily work hand in hand with me all of the time.

Letting go,

That's very interesting what you said. (I'm a numbers person too.) Its really just a matter of priorities, and I've gotten mine totally out of whack. I truly did marry my wife because of the beautiful person she is inside, and I think she's beautiful outisde.

But, all of sudden, I just wanted the shiny new car with the piece of shit engine. And here I spend days longing for that longing for that shiny new car just because it made me feel good about myself when I would drive it around.

For some reason, that became a higher priority than acting like a real man should have acted. It just felt good to be a kid again. (How many WS have said that? Only about 98% of them probably.)

So what is your father like? You said you were closer to him, why?

Very conservative. Very calm. Was always there for me if I needed anything, but never inserted himself without being asked. We never fought or argued. I can think of only one real argument that we've had.

In many ways, it is similar to my relationship with my W. Very stable. Very secure. But, not much excitement.

One thing I would say about my relationship with my father, and I'm not sure that its very important or it may be, but we never had a "man-to-man" conversation. He never told me "Always open the door" or anything like that. We never talked about male issues. He has never once raised the issue of sex with me ever in his life, whether it be about something I should know, whether it be about a woman being attractive, or anything.

The ONLY time we have ever had what I would consider to be a serious discussion about anything about relationships would be the day about 1 1/2 years ago when I called him and told him I was thinking about leaving my wife. He absolutely adores her like my entire family does. But, I never will forget what he said. He said, "Son" (which he never calls me). Anyway, he said "Son, you don't want to have to go through the pain that a divorce will cause. You don't ever want to go through it. And there's a lot more to being married than having fun. So, I would encourage you to do anything you can to work this out." Now, that may not be word for word, but other than always telling me to work hard, that is the one piece of advice that I can remember him giving me.

Are you sure that she's really not interested? Or could she just be really embarrassed to address that aspect of her sexuality? I ask because for more than a decade, I had fantasies of having "dirty sex" with my husband - but he has always been such a considerate lover, and always puts my needs first. Unfortunately, I "needed" something more raw and less emotional (on occasion at least), but was too embarrassed to ask for it. I hinted a lot - and I mean a lot - but he never seemed to pick up on the hints, and our lovemaking was mostly of the tender, loving, "connected" type. I spent years being afraid to spit out what I wanted - and can you believe that I never once had an orgasm through intercourse?

I was sure until I read this thread. Now, I'm going to find out (when the time is right). I was completely sure that she just didn't have the capacity to be that kind of lover, and now I honestly have no idea if she does or not. I would have given anything to have had this thread 3 years ago.

I know for a fact that if I ask her, she will try. She's a fighter. I don't know whether its in her or not, but I'm going to find out. But, I don't need her to be a "freak" like the OW. I just want her to be comfortable with who she is, and be sexy in her own way. I don't need sex 3 times a day, but it would just be nice to know that I might wake up one morning to a BJ.

My IC would always tell me that I'm not being fair to her because I wasn't giving her a chance to fill this need like I wanted. I was using the exact same rationale your husband did.

I don't know your wife, and I may have nothing in common with her in this regard.

I can tell from your name that you have something in common with her . . . or at least I think so.

Could this be what's happened in your M? Are you sure your wife doesn't have a desire for "porno sex" in her, but can't acknowledge it or bring herself to express it with you?

I don't know. Even after reading this thread, I'm not sure she's a closet porn star. But, I'm absolutely convinced that she's better and more expressive than I have ever given her a chance to be.

If she does, you obviously have to approach it so delicately, given that you had this with another OW - you have to avoid any sense that you want something from your W that you had with OW. The last thing you want is for your W to think you're comparing her to the OW in this way, because that will drive her sexuality even further into the dark. But when you do make love to her, do you make her feel like you are so turned on by her, and want to just ravage her body, and you can't wait any longer to take her? If she witnesses your intense desire for her (even if you have to fake it to make it), you might be surprised at her own physical response.

You know I have learned that along the way. I spent 2 1/2 years trying to "fix" my marriage by getting my wife to dress like the OW, to try to do things with me (non-sexually) that I would have fun doing with the other woman. That always drove me further into the "fog" because it never was as good. But, I've learned that they are completely different, and that my wife looks great in a nice pair of pants and it doesn't have to be a little dress. So, I'm progressing.

I know that's not exactly what you're talking about. But, I think if I can just find out more about who she really is, and allow her to be sexy, rather than trying to fit her into the mold of the OW, I will be much, much happier and more attracted to her. Its a work in progress, and its really only something that I've realized in the last few weeks. But, it feels like I'm on to something.

Does this fake it until you make it really work? I have in some ways felt guilty for having sex with my wife when I wasn't into it. It really didn't bother me in any way, but in the back of my head I was always thinking "God, I would never want her to just have sex with me because I wanted it." I know that's not exactly what you mean by fake it until you make it. But, I'm concerned if we fake it, it might not be very enjoyable for either of us and will cause us some level of regression.

I'm not trying to offend anyone here by suggesting that something's wrong with your wife if in fact she doesn't have the same kind of drive I had - and I am not letting you off the hook for your A in any sense. Just thought my experience might give you something to consider. I hope I'm making sense tonight, and sorry if I'm not!

You're making a lot of sense. Thanks a lot. Trust me, I know that no one on this forum is going to let me, or anyone else, off the hook for the A.