SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Yay Squiffle. I couldn't have said it better.

I only have one thing to address - the thing about sex "dying" in a marriage after a while.

Not true, not true, not true (not for me and my H anyway and we've been married nearly 34 years).

During the A I pulled out all the stops with the OM to "keep him interested". It's not hard to do you know - it's a form of manipulation and it obviously worked on you (by the OW I mean).

ETA the words "simple married sex" made me just about spit with anger.

[This message edited by KiwiJ at 6:45 PM, April 6th (Sunday)]

kiwi,I know I am out of place,but that is what I am saying,there was no simple married sex in my M except what my H created...now am I saying that every single time in our lives was a mindblower..no,it isn't in anyone's reality...but I was just wondering if maybe part of the "simple married sex"(and I still want to know what that is) was due to the H's possible lack of imaginative input and not wholly his wife's...as a BS,I know I put 100% into our sex life because it was the only sex life I was having...and in our case as you stated,I was still looking continually for ways to spice it up and H (lta mind you) will readily admit that the sex he wanted to be having in the A was the sex he had at home....sorry I step back now,just hearing that "simple married sex" several times blew my stack...hope I didn't overstep.

Wow! This has gotten a lot of interest since I was on this afternoon. I'm about to start responding to each of these, but I just want to thank everyone that has responded. On another board, a guy told me that my road to recovery was like leaving my house for a destination without a map of how to get there, and that people and books could point me in the right direction, but no one was going to be able to tell me/us exactly how to get there.

I know some of the things I have said may have caused some of you to laugh, or hurt, or get angry, or just shake your head in amazement at the flat out immaturity of some of the things that I've shared. I'm not saying that anything that I feel is "right" or "correct", I'm just saying that's what is in my head or has been in my head at some point over the last 2 1/2 years. But, thanks for taking the time to respond and point me in the right direction.

[This message edited by esmdqt at 7:57 PM, April 6th (Sunday)]

My H convinced himself and anyone else who would listen that I was the same way. He has since found out that his behavior towards me dictated how *fast* I played with him. I was treated like the mother to his kids and the woman he came home to everyday who took care of the house. His friends considered me to be sexy and he didn't recognize it because of his *vision* of me. I exuded confidence and sexiness in front of everyone except him because of his *attitude* towards me. The xmow in his fictious story was confident,sexy, and didn't do a dang thing for him besides stroke his ego and *need* him to fix her problems.

I honestly think there's a lot of that in my situation. When I first shared my story with a friend of mine, he told me that he thought my wife was a knock-out, and that he would kill me if I ever told his wife that he said that. My wife was truly the first long-term relationship that I had ever had. (Only one over 6 months.) So, I had never experienced building a deeper relationship than what one has when you get past the infatuation stage. For 4-5 years, it felt great to have a "mature love" or what I always referred to as an "adult relationship." But, then I got bored, and because of my own lack of understanding I thought you were always supposed to be "in love." I thought fun and excitement and sexual attraction was supposed to just come naturally. I didn't know that you have to WORK at this stuff. I've educated myself now to understand that. I just wish I would have educated myself 2 years ago, and I'm just having a hell of a time un-ringing that bell now.

I can't deny that having this younger girl admire me was a huge ego boost. I didn't realize it at the time, but having an opportunity to look back on it, there is no question that was a big part of it.

Really, besides great built up sex and your need to be needed by the OW what did she do for you?

That's a great question, and in retrospect, there is no good response. But, in the moment, it was fun, excitement, drama, all the stuff that millions of WS have said. I had only been out of college for about 3 years when the affair started, and the affair with the OW reminded me of the care-free, easy going, highly sexual days of college. I knew it wasn't something I wanted the rest of my life, but in the moment it gave me more energy than I had in a long time.

Do you need for your wife to be less independent at home and rely upon you more?

Do you need her to go days without having sex with you just because?

Do you need her to come to your office or job in the middle of the day dressed in nothing more than a raincoat and high heels?

I don't need any of those things. But, I'll be honest with you, the raincoat and high heels sounds great. And that's where it just doesn't seem like "married sex" goes for me. I want my wife to do whatever she wants, but I never want to ask her to do something that makes her feel uncomfortable. A lot of the things the OW would do naturally, I know my wife would do if I asked her, but I wouldn't enjoy it as much because I know it wouldn't be "natural" for to do it. Does that make any sense at all? It may not. I don't know. I guess its kind of like telling your husband to buy you flowers is not the same as him just bringing you home a bouquet of flowers.

A lot of the things the OW would do naturally, I know my wife would do if I asked her, but I wouldn't enjoy it as much because I know it wouldn't be "natural" for to do it.

Have you ever discussed this with your BS to let her know you enjoy these kinds of things or have you just left it up in the air for her to try to figure out?

[This message edited by lieshurt at 8:21 PM, April 6th (Sunday)]

I've read all your posts and it seems to me that the majority of what you say is the *feeling*, which has evolved into putting the OW on a pedestal as far as being sexual and knowing how to use it.

There's no question about that. There is no question that in my head I've made her much more than she really was. But does it make any sense that I understand that, but still miss it? Its not that I miss the other woman as much as I miss the fantasy that I had made this other woman to be. But, I lived in that fantasy for such a LONG time that it became my reality, and the problem is that I sit here every day with thoughts of the fantasy popping into my head.

You say the OW would always call you back because something major and life altering would be going in her life. You became the knight in shinning armour to the damsel in distress. Yet your W was brave and was having the fight of her life but didn't know it.

This is something that my IC and I have worked on. I recognized that most of these situations were complete BS that the other woman was making up. But, I viewed it as her way of saying she needed me. I just couldn't walk away from that. I realize that's probably a deep, internal problem that I need to address. But, part of the intoxicating feeling of the affair was not only having two women that were both in love with me, but trying to keep both of them happy. I don't know why that is, and I know its not healthy. But, it was a factor that kept me there.

I haven't been through what you have but I do know there is a very big difference between romantic love and real love.

I honestly didn't know that at the time. I thought romantic love was real love. The other woman only served to emphasize that. She always said that what we had was supposed to be what love felt like. Her parents were the product of infidelity. (Both left their spouses to be be with one another.) So, whenever I was around them, they only reinforced that. I just didn't know any better. That's all I can say.

Part of my problem, because I emotionally checked out of my marriage 2 1/2 years ago is that I still don't know that "real love" can be as satisfying and enjoyable as romantic love. I say that I don't know it because I haven't fully experienced it the way that I should have. If I'm able to get there with my wife, that will be my success story.

I know there is a huge difference between fantasy and reality.

I honestly think thats my biggest problem. I can understand the affair was a fantasy, but I still can't get it out of my head. Maybe its just to fresh in my memory.

Ohpuhlease, everything you said is dead on, and I appreciate you saying those things to me.

[This message edited by esmdqt at 8:29 PM, April 6th (Sunday)]

just an honest not mean question,but how do you know your wife doesn't think you'd have flipped out on her if she showed up at your work like that?

One thing I do know is how you treat a woman outside the bedroom determines how she feels you view her,are you/did you give her nonsexual touch?did you let her get worked up all through the day?or did you just let her know,"ok let's go to bed now"?maybe your wife has ideas of her own that haven't been met...let me say it in very plain terms,if you have neglected loving your wife in other ways/at other times than having sex...then chances are she maybe hesitant to blow your mind because(not saying you do..just that it is common,using you in a general sense,not specific to you)...basically if you only show your wife touch and affection during sex,she may feel like a whore and hesitant to do things that would enforce that image in your mind of her...or she could be bored stiff out of her mind yet afraid you will be negative towards her if she tries new things,afraid she'll bruise your male ego if she suggests things you don't do...I'm not trying to be out of turn,but as a BS of a lta of 2 years...some of your post feels addressable and if I missed anywhere that it said only for a WS,please someone tell me so I can edit my big mouth.I am not being mean..it just seems you give your beautiful wife no credit for knowing what she might like...she may want missionary once a week and that be it,or she may just want a H that is fully invested in making her feel the object of his desire all day long and not just in the bed.Let me tell you something that might help...I asked my H to go parking in our new car..he declined..why..because he was doing his ow in it...now...it wasn't that stoggy old wife wanted simple married sex in the bed with the lights out..it was that H couldn't admit if he invested at home..he had no need to go outside the M.Wife wasn't stoggy..H was when wife was concerned..he thought I'd be offended..he didn't ask...it didn't occur to his huge ego that I *could* be bored with him..he was oh so wrong

"I just didn't know any better"...may I ask gently if you really believe this statement?

[This message edited by usedup at 8:39 PM, April 6th (Sunday)]

But I think you're wife deserves a lot better than she's getting. You seem awfully foggy.

Squiffle, I agree with everything you said, especially about my wife deserving better than she's getting from me. My decision kept me from solving a problem within my marriage. To put it in therapy terms, I had a need and I looked to meet it outside the marriage. I'm the only one that can be blamed for that, and I would give anything if I hadn't done it. Now, trying to fix it is about a million times harder than it would have been 2 1/2 years ago.

Maybe I am still foggy. I truly believe my heart is in the right place even if my head is foggy and the other regions of my body aren't fully committed. I have to fix it. I don't know what else to say other than I just have to grow up, start acting like a man, and fix it.

I would disagree. Yeah, they do. I do.

A lot of people do. (Do you ever read Savage Love?)

Maybe you're right. But, the other woman was fighting to win me. I know she was working her ass off to do that. She did whatever I wanted, whenever I wanted for a long time. I'm not going to give too many details, but there aren't many guys that are getting 5 BJs a day and 3 rolls in the hay. That wasn't every day, but it wasn't an odd day either. Maybe some are, but its not "typical" I don't think. Maybe it is. In reality, people want to come home and vent about a bad day, don't feel like sex every night, don't get horny on their period (she did, or so she said . . . I don't know how that stuff works to be honest), etc. Every now and then you want to throw an old T-shirt and a pair of boxers and just lay around with your husband and relax. There was nothing old or casual in her drawer. It was all matching, it was all silky, it was all sexy, and it was every day I was around her, which was every single day for about 6-8 months at the beginning.

That is what my IC called "porno sex" and I know its not very realistic to expect in a marriage, but I lived it for a long time. The fact is she was working her ass off to win me, and that's how she thought she could do it, and the only thing that kept it from working is the fact that my wife is just the best person I have ever met in my life, and I just kept telling myself that any man that would voluntarily leave her is an idiot. I realize that thinking didn't cause me to make very good decisions, but it kept me from making the worst decision I could have made.

Y'know something - I wake my H up with a bj at least 3 days a week.

Gee, that must be the "simple married sex" you are talking about.

To be honest your use of the words "roll in the hay" used in this context made me want to

For goodness sake, man, think with your big head for a moment.

Y'know something else - I bet your wife would be "hot" if she had a man who knew how to push her buttons or a man who even cared about pushing her buttons.

ETA what do you mean "not realistic to expect in a marriage". Why not? I just do NOT EVEN begin to understand that thinking. That's where "porno" sex belongs. Between two people who aren't afraid to do ANYTHING with each other.

[This message edited by KiwiJ at 9:03 PM, April 6th (Sunday)]

Maybe you're right. But, the other woman was fighting to win me. I know she was working her ass off to do that. She did whatever I wanted, whenever I wanted for a long time. I'm not going to give too many details, but there aren't many guys that are getting 5 BJs a day and 3 rolls in the hay.

Well given the fact she didn't have to do anything else for you like your laundry, clean your house, put up with you moods, etc...how difficult do you think it is to give 5 bjs a day and fuck 3 times a day? Honestly, when you have nothing else between you sex is easy. This wouldn't be difficult for me to do at all with somebody I was only having sex with. Do you think it would have stayed like that had you left your wife and moved in with the OW? Hell no it wouldn't have!

Roberta,

Seriously, do you know who I am? I'm honestly starting to think you're my IC on here, because everything you said is dead on.

You mentioned that she "thought" she had a lump. In 2 1/2 yrs there seems to be a large amount of chaos and crisis. Also threats to out you to your wife and boss is very serious.(Did she say "I didn't really mean it. I just couldn't stand the thought of losing you.") Couple that with neediness and someone is very skilled at sex and you've got a recipe for an addiction.

Of the things I mentioned, I only know that two of them were real (she got fired and her mom's biopsy). The rest of them was just her way to keep me there. I know I haven't made good decisions, and I know I've done the worst thing imaginable to my wife. But, I'm a good guy, and the other woman knew it. If she called me right now and said she had been in an accident, I'd go running to help her. That's just my nature. She manipulated that. There is no question. She never apologized for anything in 2 1/2 years. Anytime we fought, if she did something wrong, she pulled out the "You're married" card and beat me over the head with the fact that I went hope and slept in a bed with another woman every night. How do I argue with that? Please know that I'm not blaming her for anything. It was my choice and my commitment, but I was just doing what I felt was "right" in the moment. I cared a lot about her, and if she needed me I was there.

I was there for my wife too. She and I dealt with a lot of personal tragedy at the time. We got through it. I was constantly running all over the place just trying to be there for both of them as much as possible.

The chaos and crisis is an interesting part of it, and its something that my IC and I have just been working on. That's what I always had growing up -- chaos and crisis. Its like that's where I feel most comfortable. My wife and I, on the other hand, never had any chaos and crisis. We didn't fight, we didn't argue, we were always very respectful (until the affair), etc. My IC says I get energized by chaos and crisis, and that's why the affair energized me. That's probably why I felt bored with my wife, because there wasn't chaos and crisis. Its just something I'm used to. My IC says that somehow I picked a perfect wife for what I need to build a solid, healthy relationship, but that I need to learn how to work and communicate better.

I'm only guessing but is your W a lot less needy and in more control?

That's a fair statement. She needs me for support like any spouse does. But, it doesn't turn into a screaming match if she has a crisis and I can't be there. She solves it. She could survive on her own without me very easily.

esmdqt, after some more time passes, maybe a few more months you are going to be so glad that you made the decision to stay with your W.

I hope you're right. Throughout the entire affair, I always said that 5 years down the road I would want to be with my wife. I would want her to be the mother of my children. I knew she was the person that I could live a lifetime with. That was what my "gut" kept telling me, and I second-guessed my gut every day for 2 1/2 years, and I still do. I just hope and pray that I was right. To be honest, me having to work my ass off to win my wife back is probably exactly what I needed. I have no doubt that if my wife would have left me, I would be going through the exact same type of withdrawal, and probably even worse.

The greatest lover I ever had would not have been a good husband for me.

I always said I wanted to marry my best friend. Others want to marry their greatest lover. I doubted myself for 2 1/2 years, and even convinced myself that my greatest lover had become my best friend. I need to build my relationship back up with my real best friend again, because I quit working on it 2 1/2 years ago.

I just had my H(fws) read your last post and he said "dang did he have it covered in bandaids cause 8 times a day would have to be raw -lube,wet or not"

I'm backing out now....good luck,really good luck to you.

I just have to ask what simple married sex is? as a BS,I am not jumping on you,I am interested if you have ever asked your wife what she might like?do you know her fantasies?do you know what your wife has really got in her head?

I ask not in any bad way,but to say that my H got boring as all hell in the bed during his A,and our sex life suffered for it,he did the same thing,the same way,yada yada and it was because in his A he was doing the same thing in virtually the same place and the same way everytime and there was his guilt and need to distance himself from me to make the A justifiable...all I am saying is often a man that is complaining his sex with his wife isn't all that is often a man that isn't being imaginative in the bedroom himself because he is putting his mental/emotional/physical activities into the A ...if your wife feels your reserve with her and your distance there is a good chance she may not be letting loose with you because she isn't comfortable with you any longer.Just a thought,not saying that is your situation.I wish you the best.

I do believe that some people are wired differently. I think the other woman thought about sex a lot more than my wife does. I know this from our "friendship" before the affair started. I mean they are different people with different desires and interests.

I honestly think that if you were to ask the OW how important sex is in a relationship, she would rate it #1 or #2. My wife on the other hand would probably rate it #6 or #7. So, any time something is a priority to you, you focus on it. My wife focused on other things all of her life and in her other relationships, while the OW was learning to be a temptress.

I agree with you that I could have made my sex life with my wife better if I would have worked on it. But, like I said in another post, I truly thought that is something that is just supposed to come natural in a relationship. That's my own immaturity. I truly didn't understand that keeping a vibrant sex life was something that takes work, and the first time I ever heard that was in marriage counseling 1 1/2 years after I'd been sleeping with someone else. You can imagine how far that notion went at that stage in my life.

eS,

why don't you tell us a little about yourself, how old you are, how long you have been married, what your childhood was like and how your wife is reacting to news of the affair. That might give us a better handle on what is going on with you. It's one thing for a long-time married person to feel as you did, and quite another for someone who has been married a short time.

Also, your statement:

I'm a good guy, and the other woman knew it.

is rather naive. What the other woman knew is that you were a man who could be manipulated. And she did. Expertly. Some people are gifted in that way and it is usually because they have grown up being manipulated or even abused themsevles.

BT

[This message edited by BorrowTrouble at 9:19 PM, April 6th (Sunday)]

ok,said I was baking out and I will...let me see if this makes sense to you...you could focus on 8 times a day with another woman and yet you thought it'd just magically happen with your wife without your focus and attention..you have alot of learning and growing up to do.

I honestly think that if you were to ask the OW how important sex is in a relationship, she would rate it #1 or #2

Of course she would rate it that high. She had nothing else to offer you. She kept you preoccupied with the sex, so that you wouldn't see her for the person she really was. She lied to you and manipulated you to get what she wanted as well. How high do you think those two things rate on the scale?

Have you ever discussed this with your BS to let her know you enjoy these kinds of things or have you just left it up in the air for her to try to figure out?

I've never told her. Obviously, right now is not the best time to approach that subject I don't think. Despite the way it may sound in this thread, we're really spending about 99% of our time trying to meet her needs right now, which is the way it should be.

I know now that saying something like that to her would have been good for me to do. I didn't know that at the time, and really until we began marriage counseling. Our MC counselor told us that "You two are just too damn nice to each other. You need to stop worrying about hurting one another's feelings." Obviously, I drove through that notion in a big way, but that's really how we were in our interactions. I was always so scared to ask her to do something that might make her the least bit uncomfortable.

Manipulation has been mentioned again and it is the absolute truth. I manipulated the OM and I knew I was manipulating the OM. I did it on PURPOSE because I was getting all the "my wife hates sex", "my wife never wants sex" drivel.

It was the easiest thing in the world to do.

I bet the OM thought I had wardrobes full of sexy lingerie. I bet he thought he was "Mr Women can't get enough of me" as well.

God, it's pitiful. God, I'm pleased I'm no longer that person.

I've never told her.

Well hun, I can tell you right now that as much as you keep saying your wife wasn't satisfying you, you weren't satisfying her either. If you can't even communicate about your likes/dislikes when it comes to sex, then neither of you were happy. Luckily for you, she didn't decide to venture out and find herself an OM to take care of her needs the way you did. Hopefully, with improved communication, this will be remedied for the both of you.

just an honest not mean question,but how do you know your wife doesn't think you'd have flipped out on her if she showed up at your work like that?

One thing I do know is how you treat a woman outside the bedroom determines how she feels you view her,are you/did you give her nonsexual touch?did you let her get worked up all through the day?or did you just let her know,"ok let's go to bed now"?maybe your wife has ideas of her own that haven't been met...let me say it in very plain terms,if you have neglected loving your wife in other ways/at other times than having sex...then chances are she maybe hesitant to blow your mind because(not saying you do..just that it is common,using you in a general sense,not specific to you)...basically if you only show your wife touch and affection during sex,she may feel like a whore and hesitant to do things that would enforce that image in your mind of her...or she could be bored stiff out of her mind yet afraid you will be negative towards her if she tries new things,afraid she'll bruise your male ego if she suggests things you don't do...I'm not trying to be out of turn,but as a BS of a lta of 2 years...some of your post feels addressable and if I missed anywhere that it said only for a WS,please someone tell me so I can edit my big mouth.I am not being mean..it just seems you give your beautiful wife no credit for knowing what she might like...she may want missionary once a week and that be it,or she may just want a H that is fully invested in making her feel the object of his desire all day long and not just in the bed.Let me tell you something that might help...I asked my H to go parking in our new car..he declined..why..because he was doing his ow in it...now...it wasn't that stoggy old wife wanted simple married sex in the bed with the lights out..it was that H couldn't admit if he invested at home..he had no need to go outside the M.Wife wasn't stoggy..H was when wife was concerned..he thought I'd be offended..he didn't ask...it didn't occur to his huge ego that I *could* be bored with him..he was oh so wrong

That's a great point. I think that's probably what I need to work on. I can't remember if it was said in this thread or on another message board. I just need to fake it until we fix it. But, yeah, I lost interest in having sex with her before the affair, and then I had no reason to fix it when I had the affair. You know what I mean, I had a reason, but . . . I was getting my needs met.

Don't worry, this one is for everyone WS and BS. We've kind of gotten off the topic of whether it comes back, which is more than fine. I guess I can only assume from the responses that the overwhelming answer is "Yes."

"I just didn't know any better"...may I ask gently if you really believe this statement?

Absolutely. Let me be clear, I knew 1000% that the affair was wrong.

But, I had absolutely no idea that the feelings that I had of falling out of love with my wife, getting bored with my marriage, needing to work to create fun and excitement in the marriage were very common. I'm not trying to use that as an excuse, but more of an explanation. Before I met my wife I had one 6 month relationship and about 30 one month relationships. I came from divorced parents who never talked to me about what it took to make a marriage work one time in my life. We had no pre-marital counseling. I didn't read any books about marriage prior to our marriage. None of our friends had been married long enough to really go through any problems except for one couple that divorced after 6 months. It sounds silly, but I just thought it all happened naturally.

[This message edited by esmdqt at 9:36 PM, April 6th (Sunday)]