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Divorce/Separation :
Ex is asking me for spousal support in divorce and involving the kids

Topic is Sleeping.
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 crazyblindsided (original poster member #35215) posted at 7:02 PM on Tuesday, July 4th, 2023

I am just beside myself the ex has responded to my D petition and is asking me for spousal support when he makes more money than I do. Probably because I listed his business (which he is able to hide his income) so I am really worried about this. I know my lawyer can subpoena his bank records which could prove that he is receiving cash from somewhere. I have a call with my lawyer on Monday to discuss so I hope that it will reassure me, but my Ex has a criminal mind and has gotten away with things before. Just feels like more injustice upon injustice and he had the nerve to show my petition to the kids and involve them mad framing me to look like what I am asking for is ridiculous. He has hid money from me for YEARS and had supported his mistress with marital funds.

What do you do when your ex has been successfully alienating the kids and now involving them in the D. My life with him has been a complete nightmare and this is just making things exponentially worse. I fear my kids holding it against me. This is beyond painful. Maybe more painful than infidelity. When will it end? Will it ever end? Will I ever have my kids back and not brainwashed by him?

fBS/fWS(me):50 Mad-hattered after DD (2008)
XWS:53 Serial Cheater, Diagnosed NPD
DD(20) DS(17)
XWS cheated the entire M spanning 19 years
Discovered D-Days 2006,2008,2012, False R 2014
Divorcing

posts: 8689   ·   registered: Apr. 2nd, 2012   ·   location: California
id 8798128
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ChamomileTea ( Moderator #53574) posted at 11:12 PM on Tuesday, July 4th, 2023

There's quite a bit of real estate between what a narcissistic STBX thinks he's going to get and what the court allows. If the facts are on your side and you've got a good attorney who can prove it, the STBX's hot air will be just that.. hot air. smile

BW: 2004(online EAs), 2014 (multiple PAs)
Married 40 years; in R with fWH for 8

posts: 6980   ·   registered: Jun. 8th, 2016   ·   location: U.S.
id 8798161
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Charity411 ( member #41033) posted at 11:56 PM on Tuesday, July 4th, 2023

My EX really got nasty financially during our divorce. I had a good attorney and she immediately subpoenaed all our credit card records and bank records going back to the start of the affair. And hers too, which was easy since she was married to his best friend and the friend supplied anything I asked for. We were able to isolate the charges spent on the OW, including hotel stays, ballet tickets, limo rides, clothes, etc. All while I was singlehandedly running our business 150 miles away. When we got to the charge where he bought me, and each of his two girlfriends the same sweaters in different colors for Christmas, his attorney looked at him and said "Give her what she wants. It will be cheaper for you than arguing this in court". This is a case where records are your salvation.

Chamomile Tea is exactly right. What they demand is seldom what they get, especially if they were cheating and spending your joint assets. Judges are people just like anyone else, and while they can't necessarily punish a cheater, they can take into account what the effect of it was on family finances. And the more of that homework you do yourself, the more ammunition your attorney will have.

posts: 1723   ·   registered: Oct. 18th, 2013   ·   location: Illinois
id 8798163
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The1stWife ( Guide #58832) posted at 12:09 PM on Wednesday, July 5th, 2023

If you filed joint tax returns and you signed the tax returns, you could be in trouble.

If he hid his income — you should speak to your attorney about that.

This is where people get stupid. Your STBXH apparently doesn’t think b/c if he’s hiding his income then he should be worried. Instead he’s acting as though he’s got nothing to hide.

You need to protect yourself and get some sound legal advice on your own behalf. Your STBXH might be the kind to drag you down with him.

And after all is said and done there is an IRS reporting process that lets you anonymously report tax cheats. You can clue them in on any unreported income going back as many years as you wish.

Survived two affairs and brink of Divorce. Happily reconciled. 10 years out from Dday. Reconciliation takes two committed people to be successful.

posts: 13791   ·   registered: May. 19th, 2017
id 8798191
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barcher144 ( member #54935) posted at 4:34 PM on Wednesday, July 5th, 2023

I am just beside myself the ex has responded to my D petition and is asking me for spousal support when he makes more money than I do.

My initial thought was "this is merely a negotiating tactic". You know, make a ridiculous opening offer in an attempt to scare you. But, then, I read the rest of your post, thought about what I have been through and...

You need a really good lawyer who has experience with high conflict divorces. If he has hid money in the past and he is practicing parental alienation... then you need to prepare yourself for the worst because the magic 8 ball says "ALL SIGNS ARE POINTING TOWARDS THE WORST."

You also need to have a long, difficult conversation with yourself about how much you want to fight him because you probably can win against him in court... but the cost to you (emotionally, financially, time) will be significant. You don't have to fight every battle. Sometimes, it makes the most sense to let him win so that you can get your freedom back.

Probably because I listed his business (which he is able to hide his income) so I am really worried about this. I know my lawyer can subpoena his bank records which could prove that he is receiving cash from somewhere. I have a call with my lawyer on Monday to discuss so I hope that it will reassure me, but my Ex has a criminal mind and has gotten away with things before.

My guess is that you are going to need a really good forensic accountant too. I don't have any expertise on this topic but I've heard of others on here have retained one.

Just feels like more injustice upon injustice and he had the nerve to show my petition to the kids and involve them mad framing me to look like what I am asking for is ridiculous. He has hid money from me for YEARS and had supported his mistress with marital funds.

You are absolutely 100% correct.

I mentioned this before, but you have already lost. You need to think about what you are willing to do to get out of this mess. In my opinion, it's about losing the least... if that's a thought that makes any sense at all.

What do you do when your ex has been successfully alienating the kids and now involving them in the D. My life with him has been a complete nightmare and this is just making things exponentially worse. I fear my kids holding it against me. This is beyond painful. Maybe more painful than infidelity.

Yes, it is worse than infidelity. By a lot. I feel for you. I really really do.

When will it end? Will it ever end? Will I ever have my kids back and not brainwashed by him?

Get yourself some books about how to handle parental alienation. Get some good online resources for it too. Do a Google search on Craig Childress. My information is a few years old, but Childress used to practice in California and he has since transitioned that part of his practice to someone else. You might be able to get an actual expert who can help you.

That said, the most important thing that you need to do is to be a great parent and to behave to the best of your ability around your kids. Set firm boundaries but don't get angry when they are crossed. The second biggest thing to do is to never give up. My oldest child has been to my home maybe 5 times since September 2022. Yet, every Thursday... I ask her if she is coming. She usually says no. It hurts when she says no. But, I smile and I say "maybe next week" every time.

Me: Crap, I'm 50 years old. D-Day: August 30, 2016. Two years of false reconciliation. Divorce final: Feb 1, 2021. Re-married: December 3, 2022.

posts: 5417   ·   registered: Aug. 31st, 2016
id 8798232
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barcher144 ( member #54935) posted at 4:53 PM on Wednesday, July 5th, 2023

There's quite a bit of real estate between what a narcissistic STBX thinks he's going to get and what the court allows. If the facts are on your side and you've got a good attorney who can prove it, the STBX's hot air will be just that.. hot air.

Yes. So this. A trait of narcissists is that they think that they are smarter than everyone else and that no one will be able to figure out their "genius" machinations. The reality is that the laws in most states are already written to thwart most of what they will be trying to do.

The problem, however, is this stuff gets really expensive quickly so you need to do a cost analysis to see if it makes sense to proceed.

In my divorce, we had three "big assets" that we had to divide. We actually agreed that she would get one and I would get two based on our personal preferences. Not surprisingly, she undervalued the asset that she wanted by $45,000 and overvalued the two assets that I wanted by $60,000. That is, accepting her values would have cost me $55,000 in value... so it made sense for me to fight for these values.

In another instance, my ex was angry that I kept all of a COVID-stimulus check that I received (she owed me more money than her half of the stimulus check). This was worth about $500. My attorney convinced me not to fight for it because it would cost me more than $500 in attorney's fees to win... so what was the point?

Me: Crap, I'm 50 years old. D-Day: August 30, 2016. Two years of false reconciliation. Divorce final: Feb 1, 2021. Re-married: December 3, 2022.

posts: 5417   ·   registered: Aug. 31st, 2016
id 8798236
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 crazyblindsided (original poster member #35215) posted at 5:13 PM on Wednesday, July 5th, 2023

If the facts are on your side and you've got a good attorney who can prove it, the STBX's hot air will be just that.. hot air.

Really hoping it is this, but I am prepared to just settle just to get this done with. I want to be free and finally done with him and all his antics.

A trait of narcissists is that they think that they are smarter than everyone else and that no one will be able to figure out their "genius" machinations. The reality is that the laws in most states are already written to thwart most of what they will be trying to do.

And this is the XWS as well. I'm surprised he is being so bold when he has a lot to lose if the IRS were to investigate him. I'm hoping when they subpoena this bank records it will show he is depositing cash and obviously paying for things like the mortgage on his mom's house that he occupies and it is like a 1Million dollar home I mean common. He has a nice truck, pays for the pool and pool man. It is night and day the financial differences between us.

I will become broke if I have to pay him support. It will ruin me as I don't make enough money to barely support myself and my kids.

I truly feel like I'm in hell and he is the devil.

fBS/fWS(me):50 Mad-hattered after DD (2008)
XWS:53 Serial Cheater, Diagnosed NPD
DD(20) DS(17)
XWS cheated the entire M spanning 19 years
Discovered D-Days 2006,2008,2012, False R 2014
Divorcing

posts: 8689   ·   registered: Apr. 2nd, 2012   ·   location: California
id 8798241
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barcher144 ( member #54935) posted at 6:54 PM on Wednesday, July 5th, 2023

I will become broke if I have to pay him support. It will ruin me as I don't make enough money to barely support myself and my kids.

In my location, one of the most important qualifying factors for spousal support is that he demonstrate a financial NEED (i.e., his income does not exceed his reasonable budget) ***and*** that you have the ability to PAY (i.e., your income exceeds your reasonable budget).

I assume that California is similar. So, you need to put together a budget for your reasonable expenses (probably just YOU) and reasonable expenses for your children and then your income.

Be ready to document all of it. He'll probably do the same, so be prepared to challenge his "reasonable budget" because I am going to predict the future and yes... it's clear to me... his budget will not be reasonable.

p.s. please tell me that you have copies of the last 4-5 years of tax returns?

I truly feel like I'm in hell and he is the devil.

I understand this far too well.

I'm serious when I recommend that you weigh the monetary cost vs. the time cost vs. the personal cost. Sometimes it's best to just run from the devil.

I once read a blog where the guy was very very overworked and he got a new job that paid less but didn't require that he work so much. He ended it with and in conclusion, that's how he managed to get his life back for the cost of $5000 per year.

Me: Crap, I'm 50 years old. D-Day: August 30, 2016. Two years of false reconciliation. Divorce final: Feb 1, 2021. Re-married: December 3, 2022.

posts: 5417   ·   registered: Aug. 31st, 2016
id 8798260
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 crazyblindsided (original poster member #35215) posted at 7:03 PM on Wednesday, July 5th, 2023

p.s. please tell me that you have copies of the last 4-5 years of tax returns?

Yep I sure do ;)

fBS/fWS(me):50 Mad-hattered after DD (2008)
XWS:53 Serial Cheater, Diagnosed NPD
DD(20) DS(17)
XWS cheated the entire M spanning 19 years
Discovered D-Days 2006,2008,2012, False R 2014
Divorcing

posts: 8689   ·   registered: Apr. 2nd, 2012   ·   location: California
id 8798264
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Shehawk ( member #68741) posted at 3:47 PM on Sunday, July 9th, 2023

I am so sorry you are going through this.

Some of my hard-learned tips from living so far through a cheater divorce are to

-not underestimate what an active wayward is capable of

-keep exquisite notes and financial records

-be alert for more lies and selfish behavior and act accordingly and promptly with boundaries and legal action as your lawyer suggests

-get lay and professional emotional support such as coaching and therapy as needed and don’t hesitate to walk away if your legitimate feelings about what happened to you are being ignored or you are being victim blamed

-only give up information to people who are solidly on your side like your attorney

I will write a post soon about what I have learned as I approach the final trial. But there have been painful lessons and situations like you are living through now.

I believe that active waywards and unrepentant waywards can be very dangerous. That is simply my belief and experience. Your mileage may vary.

"It's a slow fade...when you give yourself away" so don't do it!

posts: 1569   ·   registered: Nov. 5th, 2018   ·   location: VA
id 8798784
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TooOld ( new member #74671) posted at 5:11 PM on Sunday, July 9th, 2023

I am very sorry that your are in the midst of a very painful process.

First, if your ex filed tax returns that he knew were wrong and may involve fraud, unless you participated and/or facilitated the fraud, the IRS will not hold you liable. This happens all the time and there is an "innocent spouse" defense that the IRS accepts. Simply signing a joint return as an innocent spouse does not make you liable for his misdeeds.

Second, do not fold on support or anything else. I gather you are in California and in most cases you will not be ordered to pay spousal support given a disparity in income. Do not be afraid to use the court ordered discovery process to get the information you need to prove your case. I agree with others, it is a negotiating tactic. I am not a family law lawyer, but a recovering corporate lawyer who gets pulled into friends' family law matters. Several times the high earning spouse has asked for spousal support but didn't get it. There is a formula in California that is used to calculate support. Your signature says you have been married 19 years, if that is correct, under the old calculator if he makes more than you, you would be eligible for lifetime spousal support. Recently the California courts have begun to limit the duration, but it is still a long time.

I echo what others have said, make sure you have a strong, experienced family law lawyer who is aggressive. I have a close friend who is going through a very contentious divorce and I will tell you what I keep telling her - be strong and determined because you are fighting a war for your future life after divorce. I know you are tired and want this all behind you, but that is exactly the mindset your ex wants you to have. Push back, show him you are willing to fight to the end because that is only way you will come out of this with what YOU need.

posts: 19   ·   registered: Jun. 25th, 2020   ·   location: SoCal
id 8798789
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 crazyblindsided (original poster member #35215) posted at 8:13 PM on Thursday, July 13th, 2023

Well spoke with my lawyer we have to wait for the ex to respond to discovery which he will have to disclose all his assets and earnings under oath. She will also subpoena bank records. He is asking me to pay his lawyer fees and spousal support. All of this is out of my hands now and I can only trust my lawyer at this point and what she can find. I know he is working and he is claiming to be on MediCal (which is fraudulent with his income). Not sure how this will pan out. I may end up getting screwed in the end, just more injustice for everything he has put me through. I can hardly wait for the day that i can say I'm divorced from this monster. What a hard, long road it has been.

fBS/fWS(me):50 Mad-hattered after DD (2008)
XWS:53 Serial Cheater, Diagnosed NPD
DD(20) DS(17)
XWS cheated the entire M spanning 19 years
Discovered D-Days 2006,2008,2012, False R 2014
Divorcing

posts: 8689   ·   registered: Apr. 2nd, 2012   ·   location: California
id 8799284
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leafields ( Guide #63517) posted at 9:16 PM on Thursday, July 13th, 2023

Man, CBS. What a piece of work he is. He can ask for spousal support, but that doesn't mean he'll get it. They'll look at what you're making and your expenses to make the determination. It may be that they'll deny his request. Too bad you didn't have pictures of him working so you could prove his fraud.

We're cheering for you!

BW M 34years, Dday 1: March 2018, Dday 2: August 2019, D final 2/25/21

posts: 3117   ·   registered: Apr. 21st, 2018   ·   location: Washington State
id 8799294
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 crazyblindsided (original poster member #35215) posted at 10:24 PM on Thursday, July 13th, 2023

Too bad you didn't have pictures of him working so you could prove his fraud.

Hoping the bank statements prove this and my lawyer said we can also hire a private investigator.

fBS/fWS(me):50 Mad-hattered after DD (2008)
XWS:53 Serial Cheater, Diagnosed NPD
DD(20) DS(17)
XWS cheated the entire M spanning 19 years
Discovered D-Days 2006,2008,2012, False R 2014
Divorcing

posts: 8689   ·   registered: Apr. 2nd, 2012   ·   location: California
id 8799305
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Catwoman ( member #1330) posted at 3:31 PM on Wednesday, August 2nd, 2023

Next time he tries a non-sensible demand, tell yourself "People in Hell want ice water, too."

He can ASK all he wants. It doesn't mean he GETS. There are guidelines surrounding child and spousal support. You're much better off to ignore him and let your attorney work on this. Ask your attorney about putting in a clause to not discuss the divorce or the settlement with the children (he won't comply, and you probably don't want to spend the money trying to make him comply, but it is a common thing).

Concentrate on doing everything you can to get the very best settlement possible. Having been in a long-term marriage with a diagnosed narcissist, advocating for myself vs. giving into his demands was new territory for both of us. He made it very difficult, but I stood my ground on things that were important.

Cat

FBS: Married 20 years, 2 daughters 27 and 24. Divorced by the grace of GOD.
D-Days: 2/23/93; 10/11/97; 3/5/03
Ex & OW Broke up 12-10
"An erection does not count as personal growth."

posts: 33181   ·   registered: Apr. 5th, 2003   ·   location: Ohio
id 8801910
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ArkLaMiss ( member #14918) posted at 7:24 PM on Wednesday, August 2nd, 2023

CBS, hire a pi NOW to prove he's working for cash! That's going to make your case AND prove he's a liar all at the same time!

Just HOW stupid do you think I am, exactly?

posts: 1800   ·   registered: Jun. 8th, 2007
id 8801954
Topic is Sleeping.
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