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Because if you do manage to reconcile surely its all been worth it. They managed to get their cake and eat it. They had the sex and they managed to keep hold of their life. Its win, win for them and a massive lose for the betrayed.

But the betrayed life has been changed for ever. We will always have the scares, while they have the nice memories. No matter what they try and say.

I think where you run into trouble here is the assumption that those memories are "nice". For the truly remorseful WS, they're not. It's true that if we choose to withhold punishment, the WS gets away with it. They've managed to keep hold of their former life while having had the experience of sex outside the marriage. But we have ownership in their ability to do that. As BS's who choose R, we have allowed it. They can't keep the marriage without our agreement. We are culpable in the continuation of the marriage. It's not something that simply happens to us. We have a choice. Also, I think it's worth noting that for the really, truly remorseful WS, they'd give anything not to have those memories.

There comes a point at which you have to decide what it is that you believe. Do you believe your WS would change it all if she could? Do you believe she's worthy of your partnership? Do you believe in the course you've chosen for your future? Do you believe in what you're doing?

The feelings of continued victimization are kind of like ghosts in a way. Yeah, we did get victimized by our WS's cheating, but we are NOT required to continue on being victims in perpetuity. We reject victimization when we take full ownership of our choices. I've heard it said that when we choose R, we go "from victim to volunteer". Usually, it said in a mean-spirited way in order to shame us for our choice. Instead, I choose to EMBRACE IT. I'm here because this is where I have decided to be. I'm not uninformed. I'm not a fool. I believe in what I'm doing and I'm doing it for MY OWN REASONS, not to please anyone else and not because I feel trapped by life's circumstances.

What I've found as a "survivor" of intimate betrayal, is that I'm so much stronger than I ever thought I could be. I might have been victimized by my WH's choices and by my own naive reliance on someone else's emotional support, but I AM sufficient unto the day. I am powerful and I make my choices, I don't just have them foisted upon me. My H's history is not optimal now. I could wish it were different, but wishes aren't real. They're figments of imagination which offer nothing of substance to my reality and in my reality, certain facts are now immutable. So this current knowledge is factored into my choice. It is what it is and can't be changed. I can proceed or not at my own discretion. I even assume my own risks. If I am wrong, I will correct course and I'll be fine.

This is the hardest bit, OP... to really ACCEPT what has happened. You can still stay or go at your own discretion. The important thing is OWNING the ground you've chosen to stand on.

Whether we stay in the betrayed relationship or move on. We will always carry around the burden of the waywards affair

This is true. I finally left, but my situation was horrid with repeated infidelities and ex was diagnosed with a personality disorder to boot. I do still carry the scars and am still working through them in therapy. I will probably always have them but triggers are less now that I am away from the perpetrator.

I don't believe R is worth it unless the WS is remorseful.

I asked my wife the exact same questions. She come out with some crap about, how she has to live with herself every single day knowing what she has done. I don't buy it.!!!

If you are a wayward and can convince me other wise. Please go ahead.

I don't know that I can offer justification for my actions that would be beneficial to you. But if I may, I'd like to ask a different question that, I think, would maybe contribute more directly to your healing.

What will convince you that your wife is truly remorseful?

What answers, actions, behaviours and boundaries do you need put into place to convince you that your relationship (and your marriage) is worth saving? Do you think it's worth saving?

[This message edited by forgettableDad at 11:28 AM, Saturday, July 9th]

Because if you do manage to reconcile surely its all been worth it. They managed to get their cake and eat it. They had the sex and they managed to keep hold of their life. Its win, win for them and a massive lose for the betrayed.

I guess that my main take from this would be:

1. The above, by no means, would be my definition of reconciliation. It would be a relationship that neither partner has left.

2. I would question myself to no end. It would be the perfect example of a remorseless partner. Who could hurt their partner like that, 'reconcile', and not care about their suffering? And more importantly, if the above was true, why would I settle to stay in a relationship like this? Why would I devalue myself so much to keep a person like that in my life? Children? Finances? Am I that much of a martyr to live like this?

Remember, we too are responsible for our choices. Nobody said that the world is a fair and just place. If we choose to stay in a situation like the one described, where is our accountability in doing so?

My feelings of victimization and injustice are directly correlated to my feelings of powerlessness and stuckness.

My feelings of power and value are directly correlated to my feelings of personal strength and action in my life.

Therefore, in my lived experience, if a BS feels powerless and stuck in even entertaining the idea of divorce--whether due to kids, finances, religion, or image--they will feel more resentment and victimization in recovery.

Powerlessness = victimized

But if the BS plans, accepts, and moves toward separation and/or divorce but is held back by the contrition, efforts, and measurable commitment of the WS to recovery and reconciliation, then the feelings of victimization and humiliation are greatly reduced. Time usually does the rest.

You need to free yourself from any R that makes you feel victimized. It is up to the WS to win you back and change your mind. If you do not do that for yourself and your mental health, these feelings will persist (in my lived experience. This is what I went through).

You have to be willing to lose the M to find your power. And yourself. Did you actually require your WW to win you back through her hard work and efforts? Did she win you back? I doubt you would feel this way if she had.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 12:09 PM, Saturday, July 9th]

How is it fair?

It isn't fair at all. That's why a lot of people consider cheating abuse. It is one person deciding to risk another person's physical health, mental health, financial security, and keep them in the dark about the reality of their relationship while the cheater is intimate with someone else. Meanwhile, the betrayed is continuing to invest time, money, and emotions into what is covertly a one-way relationship. Sometimes children are conceived and born by the betrayed while the cheater is busy cheating. And when it's discovered, the betrayed has the additional burden of deciding what to do about it.

It's horrible. It's abusive. It stinks. This is why you should think long and hard before deciding to stay with such a person.

[This message edited by morningglory at 7:24 PM, Saturday, July 9th]

How is it fair?

It isn't.

How do you deal with the fact that the wayward spouse gets to have all the fun, the sex and the excitement.

I remind myself that it's not a thing I can control and the healthiest thing for me is to try to focus on what I can control. I'm not always successful but I'm consistent in being honest with myself about it.

They take the chance, take up the opportunity and then when the shit hits the fan, all they have to do is sit tight and wait. Say the right things and hope that they don't loose their life. the life that they were willing to put on the line and gamble for a bit of excitement with someone new.

They just have to wait for the betrayed spouse to get over the pain. Even if thats a year, 2 years, 3 years or whatever, they just sit tight and wait.

Like you said, it isn't fair. -and no, "it isn't fair" doesn't acknowledge the true depth of the injustice.

Because if you do manage to reconcile surely its all been worth it. They managed to get their cake and eat it. They had the sex and they managed to keep hold of their life. Its win, win for them and a massive lose for the betrayed.

Depends my man. A BS that begins to understand that their WS is selfish, intentionally cruel and a terrible judge of what's fair will, used as loosely as possible, take their pound of flesh one way or another. It's not about punishing the WS... it's about natural consequences for possibly the most cruel kind of betrayal possible.

If a BS "rolls over" though, the WS will not face real consequences. Even if a WS is doing the right personal work to be a better person, consequences are a must.

But the betrayed life has been changed for ever. We will always have the scars, while they have the nice memories. No matter what they try and say.

That's one of the worst parts for me. Almost two decades were not absolutely erased, per se. My memories saw a nasty combination of deletion and/or having all of the purity invalidated. One of the worst parts of it is feeling, at my core, like the biggest chump.

I can't change what my reality is about memories. But I can remind myself that her actions were always out of my control and that I won't allow a cruel person to moderate how I see my own value, mind or heart.

Whether we stay in the betrayed relationship or move on. We will always carry around the burden of the waywards affair.

I try to think of it differently. We have been severely wounded but we have a choice as to how we treat the wound. We can allow it to remain a gapping wound or we can work towards healing. Even if healed, yeah, we are going to have the scar. There's no way around that. We just gotta pick ourselves up and do our best at that.

I asked my wife the exact same questions. She come out with some crap about, how she has to live with herself every single day knowing what she has done. I don't buy it.!!!

Trust your gut. If you think she's not being authentic, she probably isn't.

I think that depends on who the judge is and what the case is about.