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Newest Member: Hurtingstrong

Just Found Out :
I Don't Have Any Idea What To Do

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Sal1995 ( member #39099) posted at 6:27 PM on Friday, August 28th, 2015

How could your spouse "fall in love" with another person so quickly? They can't.

I'm always amazed how quickly they fall out of love, in many cases. Things can change quickly once the light of day is shone on these sordid affairs.

ETA: Walloped, I'm fairly new to your story and this is my first time posting. Just wanted to offer my support and express my admiration for the way you are handling yourself. However your marriage turns out, I hope you stick around here for awhile.

[This message edited by Sal1995 at 12:32 PM, August 28th (Friday)]

BH
Reconciled

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longtime sucker ( new member #7731) posted at 6:32 PM on Friday, August 28th, 2015

I have to say I agree with wk55hn's post. It's so much easier to agree with someone who has already agreed with you, right?

Anyway, I also think that the "compartmentalization" is over-emphasized sometimes. Just like the myth of the Multiple Personality Disorder. One can always blame the "alter" for anything done wrong, or in the case of the "compartmentalization" one can "not really think" about the "other life" when not in the "right" compartment. Sure, there had to be at least some planning ahead, and some attempts at hiding the affair, in any such cases. However, it is complicated.

I personally believe that mythology, and religion, in all its forms, speaks a lot about human nature, and I will make some references here. It is the temptation/pleasure of tasting the forbidden fruit that was so powerful as to lead to the banishment of Adam and Eve from the Garden of Eden. I think the Biblical metaphor applies a lot in the case of infidelity. Just like the Biblical characters, the WS is willing to do what he/she knows is forbidden, and risk opening Pandora's Box. With all the consequences implied. BECAUSE THEY ARE CURIOUS, and THEY THINK THEY CAN BE SMART ENOUGH NOT TO BE CAUGHT. And then, just like the legendary Narcissus, they start falling in love with their own reflected image (in the case of the WS, what they think they see reflected in the eyes of the AP). Until, just like Narcissus, they fall into the pond. And many drown afterwards, when the affair is brought out in the open. And, just like in the case of Pandora, after opening the box, and the evil is released, the only thing left for the relationship is hiding on the bottom- hope. They (some of them, at least, the ones who are remorseful and repentant) HOPE that they will be able to restore the broken vase of the relationship. Sometimes it works, and the glue is strong enough to re-build it. Sometimes there is just enough glue to hold the walls together, but it is like a sieve, and cannot hold anymore the love; people just struggling to maintain appearances. And a lot of times the vase is so shattered that not even a master potter can put it together anymore.

Regarding the $900 cuff links, my opinion is that if you are in Rome, you must do what the Romans do. And one has to "keep up with the Joneses".

Therefore, if you think you are in a loving relationship with a rich person, a lot of times you may be prone to spending more than you normally would, because you don't want to be seen as "cheap" and menial. So, if the access to money is there...And at the time, it may not even cross the "in love" person's mind that the money is provided by someone else, who trusts them. They just have to keep the "love of their lives" happy, and in awe with them.

Again, the disclaimer, just my ramblings; may not be accurate or apply to the persons involved.

I think in this case though, W's wife is doing much more than most WS that have been described here have done, and that, at the very least, she is not trying to prolong her husband's agony. I also feel that, by providing all the damning details, in a way she is resigned to a death sentence to her marriage, and is at some level expecting the capital punishment, at the same time hoping that the judge will show clemency, for which she is willing to do as much "time" in Purgatory as necessary.

[This message edited by longtime sucker at 2:12 PM, August 28th (Friday)]

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ReconciledGuy88 ( member #43731) posted at 7:39 PM on Friday, August 28th, 2015

I want to thank Hurting Big Time. In his reply on page 42 at 10:50 AM, August 27th, he stated:

4) Along those lines - try to speak in the I and not the you. That's tough, I know. But don't say "You did this! You acted this way!" Whenever you talk like that it puts the other person on the defensive. Say it from "I feel x, or when you say this it makes me feel y, or it's hard for me not to feel z when I think of you doing these things."

This is VERY IMPORTANT but is rarely seen in the advice given on SI.

When you focus your comments on the WS, what they did, people react defensively. While the attack feels good, it does not get you anything, makes them feel attacked, and drives the WS away. Focusing on how you feel as a result of their action (consequences) causes them pain, if they are remorseful, it does not drive them away. Remember, regret is when the WS focuses on how they feel, while remorse focuses on how the WS's actions made you feel. Your taking the "I feel" approach compliments the WS's remorse.

This is only helpful if there is a possibility of R.

My own examples would be "When you don't tell me everything about what you and AP did I feel intense pain and anger" or "When you break NC, I feel frustration and grief that I still can't offer you even a slight amount of trust."

I will be adding this to my advice in the future.

DDay 08/30/88BH (Me) 37 then, 64 nowFWW 32 then, 59 now2 Great! DDsIn 1988 there was no SI, did everything wrong and still managed to reconcile.Reconciled and Happy

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Western ( member #46653) posted at 8:32 PM on Friday, August 28th, 2015

I agree with Graywolf and Wk55

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kaylor ( member #47193) posted at 9:32 PM on Friday, August 28th, 2015

Great posting wk55

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Western ( member #46653) posted at 3:39 AM on Saturday, August 29th, 2015

good point by longtimesucker

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Aumanny99 ( member #48529) posted at 12:52 AM on Sunday, August 30th, 2015

Affair love is specific type of 'in love' one based on fantasy and fueled by dopamine that comes from doing what is forbidden, secretly, and with someone who is equally broken and lost. It's not real love, and is highly addictive. Your wife is deeply broken to be able to do this to you.

I do believe she loves you, in the sense she is bonded to you, as in oxytocin love. She was lacking the dopamine love or excitement that naturally dies down as couples live and stay together over time.

People how are not broken don't need to have the dopamine/adrenaline fueled affair experience to feel alive. They also know they need to nurture and keep alive the excitement in their marriage to keep it working. She took a short cut. She was lazy. She let her body over ride her mind and heart. She knew it was wrong but that make it even harder to avoid.

NOTHING you did made her do it. You are just a normal good husband who married a typical cheater. She needs to change.

The best way to get her to change is to not blame yourself. Start working on yourself. Work out. Eat better. Take on new hobbies or go back to those activities where you feel the most sexy. Living well is the best revenge. Show her your tears and in a very controlled way, your anger. Don't yell or break things.

Definitely sleep in your own bed, even if you cry all night there. Let her see the consequences of her actions. Go to individual therapy. Read books about affairs and building your self esteem. Become more Alpha. Read Athol Kay's stuff. The Rational Male is also good. Do better at work. Show her what she will be missing if she doesn't earn you back.

Private message me for more. I'm 10 months out and feeling amazing.

Forgiveness is last. First simply empathize with her. Let her do that talking. Be silent. Don't confess to stuff to make her think you blame yourself. HUGE mistake.

Me: BS: 52
WS: 40s
DD: 11/7/14
DD2: 10/17/15 (EA cont'd during false R)
Married for 20 years
Two kids, pre teen.
WS: has LTA for 4 years. First 2 years EA, then last 2 years EA/PA.
False R between 11/7/14 and 10/17/15(she broke no contact)

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wk55hn ( member #44159) posted at 7:22 AM on Sunday, August 30th, 2015

Affair love is specific type of 'in love' one based on fantasy and fueled by dopamine that comes from doing what is forbidden, secretly, and with someone who is equally broken and lost. It's not real love, and is highly addictive. Your wife is deeply broken to be able to do this to you.

I do believe she loves you, in the sense she is bonded to you, as in oxytocin love. She was lacking the dopamine love or excitement that naturally dies down as couples live and stay together over time.

People how are not broken don't need to have the dopamine/adrenaline fueled affair experience to feel alive. They also know they need to nurture and keep alive the excitement in their marriage to keep it working. She took a short cut. She was lazy. She let her body over ride her mind and heart. She knew it was wrong but that make it even harder to avoid.

I don't recall where I came across this information, I think maybe exhibits in American Museum of Natural History or in Franklin Institute taking my kids, but there is quite a body of science regarding the human brain. I am not a scientist, but researchers are finding more and more about what parts of the brain causes functions, feelings, reasoning, memory, etc. Even love and monogamy. Some of it makes me get the feeling that humans have no will, just an illusion because we don't know enough about the science yet that causes what we do and when we do it.

I find it very difficult wondering how much of an extremely moral person (as far as we know) of 40-plus years, changing completely against their "character"; if there is some type of brain science involved, chemicals causing them to be "not at fault," or is so how much extent, vs. just selfishness.

People how are not broken don't need to have the dopamine/adrenaline fueled affair experience to feel alive.

i.e., Is the cheater just a victim of their "illness" or "malfunction" in their chemicals?

In the end, I believe the brain science, but I (and Walloped, and many others) apparently can "over-ride" these chemical drugs in our brains, but our cheating wives were not. I wish there was some type of "medical test" we could go to the doctor, and find out why they cheated, what chemicals spiked up, but science is not there yet. Until then, I've got to stick with the selfishness explanation and hold my wife completely responsible for her behavior. Though I think some of the research otherwise is compelling.

http://www.amnh.org/exhibitions/past-exhibitions/brain-the-inside-story

Love

What is love? Neuroscientists can't answer that question yet. But they have learned more about how the feelings that occur when people "bond" are produced in the brain. If you look at how humans bond with their mates and care for their young, you'll see some surprising similarities between us and other species. Can family bonds be strengthened and weakened by chemicals in your brain?

How it Works

Only about 5 percent of mammal species form exclusive, lifelong bonds with their mates. One is the prairie vole: Chemicals in a vole's brain make it link its mate with good feelings, and pairs tend to stay together for life. One of these chemicals is the neurotransmitter oxytocin. Prairie voles with more oxytocin receptors tend to stay with their mates. Voles with low levels mate with new partners.

Oxytocin plays a key role in the bonding process in voles--but what about in humans? In humans, as in prairie voles, oxytocin is released during birth, nursing, and mating--important bonding moments. Inhaling oxytocin in a nasal spray makes people feel more trusting in clinical studies. And in studies, men with naturally low oxytocin levels were less likely to get married.

So is oxytocin the secret of love? No. It is just one chemical messenger in the brain--a small part of a very complicated system. And it's not the only messenger involved in producing feelings of love and affection. Dopamine is a key messenger in the brain's "seeking system" that generates desire, and endorphin activates your pleasure centers when you find what you were looking for.

Reasoning

The powers of your brain are astonishing. You can live in the moment, reflect on the past, or imagine the future. You can allow your thoughts to wander in new directions--or train them to shut out the world and focus within. How does your brain help you reason, plan, make choices and set your mind on your goals?

How it Works

Much of the thinking you do day-to-day is a form of planning or problem-solving: deciding which steps to take to complete a job or get from here to there. When problem-solving, neurons near the front of your brain come alive. They take in a flurry of signals from the rest of the brain, help you weigh your options, and choose the best course--then transmit the plan to your brain's motor areas for action.

Make Up Your Mind

© Sunshinecity

Just when you're trying your best to be reasonable, however, your emotions can lead you astray. While executive neurons at the front of your brain allow for rational and logical decision-making, it's easy to be swayed by the emotional circuitry in your brain.

Have you ever bought something you can't afford and don't even need? Blame it on your overactive nucleus accumbens. Studies show that this bundle of neurons--sometimes called the brain's reward center--becomes active when you see a product that pleases you. If the price is exorbitant, your insula may express disapproval, and your reasonable prefrontal cortex may keep you in check. But if these brain areas are busy with other cares of the day, you'll reach for the reward.

Aging

By the time you reach your twenties, your brain is functioning at its peak. How does your brain change as you age?

How it Works

Scientists once assumed that after early childhood, the number of neurons in the brain was fixed, and no new ones could ever form. But recent research has shown that new neurons form throughout life in at least two areas: the hippocampus, which helps memories form, and the olfactory bulb, which processes smell.

Like the rest of your body, your brain has a natural tendency to slow down over time. After your twenties, little by little, the number of neural connections declines. Your working memory may become a bit less reliable, and you may not focus as well or react as quickly as you were able to in your youth.

With an illness, the brain can dwindle more rapidly. One of the most common brain disorders in people over 50 is Alzheimer's disease. While the causes of this illness are still unknown, it is clear that Alzheimer's destroys neurons and the connections between them. Under a microscope, Alzheimer's tissue shows fewer neurons and fewer synapses than normal. Damage starts in an area near the hippocampus, the brain's memory center. This is why one of the first signs of Alzheimer's is difficulty with memory.

In a normal aging brain, however, lessons learned through many years of experience are retained. Studies suggest your brain will stay healthy longer if you keep it engaged with mental and physical exercise; in fact, the more actively you use your brain, the more likely it is to stay sharp as long as you live.

SCIENCE + TECHNOLOGY

UCLA researchers map damaged connections in Phineas Gage's brain

Famous 1848 case of man who survived a terrible accident has modern parallel

May 16, 2012

Poor Phineas Gage. In 1848, the supervisor for the Rutland and Burlington Railroad in Vermont was using a 13-pound, 3-foot-7-inch rod to pack blasting powder into a rock when he triggered an explosion that drove the rod through his left cheek and out of the top of his head. As reported at the time, the rod was later found, "smeared with blood and brains."

Miraculously, Gage lived, becoming the most famous case in the history of neuroscience — not only because he survived a horrific accident that led to the destruction of much of his left frontal lobe but also because of the injury's reported effects on his personality and behavior, which were said to be profound. Gage went from being an affable 25-year-old to one that was fitful, irreverent and profane. His friends and acquaintances said he was "no longer Gage."

Over the years, various scientists have studied and argued about the exact location and degree of damage to Gage's cerebral cortex and the impact it had on his personality. Now, for the first time, researchers at UCLA, using brain-imaging data that was lost to science for a decade, have broadened the examination of Gage to look at the damage to the white matter "pathways" that connect various regions of the brain.

Reporting in the May 16 issue of the journal PLoS ONE, Jack Van Horn, a UCLA assistant professor of neurology, and colleagues note that while approximately 4 percent of the cerebral cortex was intersected by the rod's passage, more than 10 percent of Gage's total white matter was damaged. The passage of the tamping iron caused widespread damage to the white matter connections throughout Gage's brain, which likely was a major contributor to the behavioral changes he experienced.

Because white matter and its myelin sheath — the fatty coating around the nerve fibers that form the basic wiring of the brain — connect the billions of neurons that allow us to reason and remember, the research not only adds to the lore of Phineas Gage but may eventually lead to a better understanding of multiple brain disorders that are caused in part by similar damage to these connections.

"What we found was a significant loss of white matter connecting the left frontal regions and the rest of the brain," said Van Horn, who is a member of UCLA's Laboratory of Neuro Imaging (LONI). "We suggest that the disruption of the brain's 'network' considerably compromised it. This may have had an even greater impact on Mr. Gage than the damage to the cortex alone in terms of his purported personality change."

LONI is part of an ambitious joint effort with Massachusetts General Hospital and the National Institutes of Health to document the trillions of microscopic links between every one of the brain's 100 billion neurons — the so-called "connectome." And because mapping the brain's physical wiring eventually will lead to answers about what causes mental conditions that may be linked to the breakdown of these connections, it was appropriate, as well as historically interesting, to take a new look at the damage to Gage's brain.

Since Gage's 189-year-old skull, which is on display in the Warren Anatomical Museum at Harvard Medical School, is now fragile and unlikely to again be subjected to medical imaging, the researchers had to track down the last known imaging data, from 2001, which had been lost due to various circumstances at Brigham and Women's Hospital, a teaching affiliate of Harvard, for some 10 years.

The authors were able to recover the computed tomographic data files and managed to reconstruct the scans, which revealed the highest-quality resolution available for modeling Gage's skull. Next, they utilized advanced computational methods to model and determine the exact trajectory of the tamping iron that shot through his skull. Finally, because the original brain tissue was, of course, long gone, the researchers used modern-day brain images of males that matched Gage's age and (right) handedness, then used software to position a composite of these 110 images into Gage's virtual skull, the assumption being that Gage's anatomy would have been similar.

Van Horn found that nearly 11 percent of Gage's white matter was damaged, along with 4 percent of the cortex.

"Our work illustrates that while cortical damage was restricted to the left frontal lobe, the passage of the tamping iron resulted in the widespread interruption of white matter connectivity throughout his brain, so it likely was a major contributor to the behavioral changes he experienced," Van Horn said. "Connections were lost between the left frontal, left temporal and right frontal cortices and the left limbic structures of the brain, which likely had considerable impact on his executive as well as his emotional functions."

And while Gage's personality changed, he eventually was able to travel and find employment as a stagecoach driver for several years in South America. Ultimately, he died in San Francisco, 12 years after the accident.

Van Horn noted a modern parallel.

"The extensive loss of white matter connectivity, affecting both hemispheres, plus the direct damage by the rod, which was limited to the left cerebral hemisphere, is not unlike modern patients who have suffered a traumatic brain injury," he said. "And it is analogous to certain forms of degenerative diseases, such as Alzheimer's disease or frontal temporal dementia, in which neural pathways in the frontal lobes are degraded, which is known to result in profound behavioral changes."

Van Horn noted that the quantification of the changes to Gage's brain's pathways might well provide important insights for clinical assessment and outcome-monitoring in modern-day brain trauma patients.

Other authors of the study were Andrei Irimia, Micah C. Chambers, Carinna M. Torgerson and Arthur W. Toga, all of UCLA, and Ron Kikinis of Harvard Medical School. The work was performed as part of the Human Connectome Project (www.humanconnectomeproject.org). The authors report no conflict of interest.

The UCLA Laboratory of Neuro Imaging, which seeks to improve understanding of the brain in health and disease, is a leader in the development of advanced computational algorithms and scientific approaches for the comprehensive and quantitative mapping of brain structure and function. The laboratory is part of the UCLA Department of Neurology, which encompasses more than a dozen research, clinical and teaching programs. The department ranks in the top two among its peers nationwide in National Institutes of Health funding.

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cajun123 ( member #48989) posted at 1:24 PM on Sunday, August 30th, 2015

I read over & over Longtime Sucker's post on page 44 for my best explanation of what happened in hindsight. The science of the brain chemicals are very real. The skilled manipulator knows and understands their effects. In the care and feeding of his mistress, he has to make the fantasy alive and real. To get to a state of healing, this notion has to be broken over and over again and replaced with truth. The euphoric recall has to be replaced with the reality and pain it caused. I know very little about the POS, but I am willing to bet that WW was one of many. Stevie Nicks said it best.

Like a heartbeat...drives you mad...

In the stillness of remembering what you had...

And what you lost

What you had...

And what you lost

Thunder only happens when it's raining

Players only love you when they're playing

Say...Women...they will come and they will go

When the rain washes you clean...you'll know.

Therapy will help get her to where she knows. Walloped has made clear to her ANY contact with POS is to never again be tolerated. The other post on page 44 by Reality Bites shows the pitfalls of continued toxic influence. My prayer today is that both are finding a new clarity and understanding for healing through rigorous honesty.

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mike7 ( member #38603) posted at 3:30 PM on Sunday, August 30th, 2015

aumanny - while I believe there's some truth to what you're saying, the brain is much more complex than that. there are more things going on than just oxytocin and dopamine. I appreciate that you are trying to understand what happened. If that makes it easier to deal with then more power to you. but I wouldn't use that as an excuse for the WS. People make choices. We're not automatons. Likewise, the chemical excuse doesn't explain why someone can be faithful for twenty years, and then suddenly cheat. People, men and women, have thousands of opportunities to cheat in their lives. It's not just that they were always going to cheat, they just never got the chance. Unless of course you're saying that somehow the way their brain works suddenly changed. If that's the case, then reconciliation is pointless. Their brain changed. They're now a walking, talking cheating machine waiting for an opportunity.

no. it's more complicated than that. The cheater chose to cheat. they have to take responsibility.

BH 60
WW 58
Two grown kids

DDay 1/15/2013

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Valentinessucks ( member #46486) posted at 3:38 PM on Sunday, August 30th, 2015

It's interesting to discuss the brain chemistry and it's effects on human behavior.

I'm with Mike on this one.

Why doesn't it come down to the fact that a cheater just wanted to indulge themselves over all else?

When do we just call it like we see it. They know what they are doing. They choose not to stop themselves.

Me: BS, 52 Him: WS, 68
Married 30 yrs; DDay E/A, 5/2012
2nd DDay, again E/A, broke NC 2/2014 Reconciling.

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cajun123 ( member #48989) posted at 4:11 PM on Sunday, August 30th, 2015

Sorry, the referenced posts were from Wednesday, Page 40.

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glasshouses ( new member #49401) posted at 7:13 PM on Sunday, August 30th, 2015

I'm going to keep this short as possible as you have so much advice here already but I wanted to add my two bob's worth as a have such a different opinion from many others here. Before I do, I should say that I have experienced infidelity and the psychologically devastating consequences. It's hard for people who haven't to understand the hurt it can cause. You have my sincere sympathy for the pain you are experiencing.

However in my case I experienced infidelity and lying by someone who was deliberately reckless with my feelings and, I believe, took some pleasure in his power of deception over me. From what you've said about your wife and your relationship with her, it doesn't look to me like this the case in your situation.

Here are some of my thoughts which you can obviously take or leave. But the bottom line for me really is follow your heart. You know your wife and relationship better than anyone here. Don't let anyone else's opinion allow you to act against your better judgement.

- This isn't something your wife intentionally did to you. It's something she did despite of you. From an outsiders point of view it's easy to see why your wife cheated. You said that she devoted everything to other people's happiness, looking after you, your family and home and being a good wife and mother. You get external validation from your work, you've mentioned it many times and it seems to be something you're proud of. It's easy to see how her work as a wife and a mother was taken for granted by everyone. I can see how seductive the affair would be to her. It fell in her lap and she didn't resist. She just allowed herself to give in and create a separate world in her head because it gave her a feeling she hasn't had for years. The feeling of being an independent individual of worth. Not only a wife and mother. You get this feeling every day at work. She doesn't.

- She was caught holding hands with the other guy in broad daylight. This feels like proof that she'd constructed and compartmentalised a fantasy world in which you didn't exist. She wasn't taking pleasure in deceiving you or sneaking around behind your back. When she was with him it hardly occurred to her to be cautious.

- When the dust has settled and your wife's guilt, remorse, sorrow and self loathing about the effect her behaviour had on you has begun to dissipate, she is going to remember how you acted in the aftermath. At some point she is going to ask herself: can she forgive you? Will you be able to forgive yourself for the way you have treated her. The humiliation? The name calling? The intrusive std test that you took some pleasure in forcing her to take (and actually hoped she'd catch a disease to teach her a lesson)? The humiliation of telling her friends, family and coworkers?

She's the mother of your kids. She's been a loving and loyal wife for 27 years. You married her with the promise you'd do anything for her. Should this one thing be an exception?

- She's still the same person you married. The same person she was a few months ago. Except now her guilt and your pain and anger have torn her to pieces. Your instincts aren't wrong. She managed to delude herself and pursue something that gave her a bit of escape and pleasure. None of this was motivated by any malicious intent against you or your family. You've said she wasn't a selfish person and that she lived for other people. She did one selfish thing. As soon as she realised the consequences she did everything she could to rectify the situation.

- This wasn't about sex. It was about power. Her sexual power over the other guy and her power to reclaim herself as an individual. I get the videos playing in your head. I really do. It's horrible and it will keep you awake. But they will wear off if you are able to address the other psychological issues. Bodies are just bodies. The other guy doesn't get any special significance because of the parts of your wife's body he touched. She's not property to be stolen or trespassed on my someone else. I think I get why you asked her those explicit questions and why you shared them here. But I think you need to drop that line of questioning because it's humiliating for everyone.

So finally my advice, as a contrast to much of the other advice here:

- Apologise to your wife for all the deliberate hurt, shame and pain you have caused her. Recognise that she has never done this to you and that you will try your best not to do it again. Be sincere. If there's anything you feel guilty about in the way you have dealt with this say it, take responsibility and apologise. Stop the name calling. Stop treating her like she is subhuman. This behaviour must be psychologically damaging for both of you.

- Try to understand what was missing in your wife's life that this affair was so attractive to her. If you reconcile what will you both do to fix this? How can she feel more fulfilled and valued in your marriage?

- Be honest with her. Treat her as your wife and confident. Drop the polygraph. It's further humiliation and intrusion in your relationship. You know what happened. You don't need a machine to prove it.

I think a lot of people who have experienced infidelity want to put cheaters in one club together and insist that there is one set of behaviour. Maybe this is true for a lot of them. And sometimes people need a wake up call if they're in love with a selfish cheating liar. But this doesn't seem like you. And I don't think you think it seems like you either.

I could be way off the mark but as I say, my view seems so different it might give you a useful perspective. I hope you're able to reconcile but if you can't I hope you can salvage a good, civil, respectful relationship for the sake of your kids.

All the best of luck to all of you.

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mike7 ( member #38603) posted at 7:27 PM on Sunday, August 30th, 2015

yeah. I'm afraid I have to disagree with your post glasshouses. You are underestimating the damage that was done. It's only natural when someone betrays you to have a corresponding reaction. You also are giving Walloped's wife a pass and actually suggesting that Walloped apologize to her. What if he can't get past her betrayal? What about her lies? You really think he should apologize for being upset? For wanting the truth when she was still lying? She even said the threat of the polygraph is one of the reasons she admitted to breaking NC.

i also see this was your very first post here at SI. Welcome!

BH 60
WW 58
Two grown kids

DDay 1/15/2013

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glasshouses ( new member #49401) posted at 7:42 PM on Sunday, August 30th, 2015

Hi Mike7. Thank you!

I didn't mean to detract from the seriousness of the betrayal. Or the devastation it has caused. I understand and sympathise. I think I would have reacted with anger too. And I honestly don't know if I could forgive if I was in Walloped's position. I'd want to hurt the person who hurt me. But I think Walloped has done this now. Further punishment, in my mind, won't help either of them. I don't know if he will be able to forgive. Only he knows that. And honestly, I wouldn't blame him if he couldn't. With the best will in the world you can't always make your heart follow your mind. But I do think that whether they reconcile or even if they just want to have a civil relationship for the sake of the children, now would be a good time to take stock and work out a way to move forward. And to act in a way that sets an example to their children. People mess up. Horribly. And even though we have no power over mistakes we've made in the past, we can take responsibility for how we act in the future.

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glasshouses ( new member #49401) posted at 8:23 PM on Sunday, August 30th, 2015

Just realised I didn't answer your question properly Mike7. No, I don't think Walloped needs to apologise for being upset. But I do think Walloped should consider apologising for deliberately trying to hurt and punish his wife. Just because it's understandable it doesn't make it okay. But the same goes for her affair. An apology doesn't lessen seriousness of what she did. I do think that his wife was absolutely right to apologise unreservedly for betraying his trust. They've both done and said things to each other that they probably never would have dreamed possible. If I was them I'd want to move forward as two people with many years of a loving happy relationship with each other, with respect for each other and with children they want to look after.

posts: 6   ·   registered: Aug. 30th, 2015
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DailyReprieve ( member #46662) posted at 8:24 PM on Sunday, August 30th, 2015

W,

Just dropping back in to wish you well and to thank you for your Thursday morning "rant", though I wouldn't call it that. Your response there to a certain brand of negativity found on SI was right on point. Bless you for taking the time and energy to express your feelings on the wife bashing so eloquently. I imagine I'm not the only BS here who shares that viewpoint but you, in the heat of the firestorm no less, nailed that bullshit to the wall and let us take a good look at what it really is.

Thanks again. Stay strong and good luck.

posts: 229   ·   registered: Feb. 4th, 2015   ·   location: Casablanca
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longtime sucker ( new member #7731) posted at 10:46 PM on Sunday, August 30th, 2015

While the above posting from Glasshouses (is the pseudonym from the proverb, "People who live in glasshouses should not throw stones", BTW?) sounds entirely logical and reasonable, somehow it feels (were it not for the disclaimer of having been betrayed) like it was written by a friend of W's wife or his wife herself. It looks to me like it is almost trying to "shame" W about his reaction on D-Day and avout his actions afterwards, which most of thr other posters in here were actually very much OK with. It also seems like it is "shaming" him for even his thoughts which he dared to share here, like the "hope" that he had that she would have some unwanted consequences (i.e. STD's). To my understanding, he did not tell her that he hoped she had these and he did not 'wish' those out loud to her. He just shared his THOUGHTS here. There is a huge difference between thoughts and actions. Good people can have VERY BAD thoughts, but only when putting them into action do they become BAD PEOPLE. Having the WS take tests for STD's, especially when NO PROTECTION was used in the sexual affair is not "to punish and humiliate" the WS. IT IS BASIC GOOD JUDGMENT because of the health risk the STD's represent. Especially if certain "body parts" were involved. The rate of infection with HIV is much higher in the case of anal sex because of the much higher risk of mini-tears of the rectal mucosa, which in turn facilitates the penetration of the virus in the blood stream. The "name calling" during the initial phase or during the revealing interview, while admittedly not helpful or dignifying for the relationship, is not at all uncommon. I can see how that could be later "held against" the BS, especially if the WS switches later from repentant and remorseful to a blaming and blame shifting person. The polygraph threat was what brought the FULL confession and the confession of the breaking of NC. Most people who are used to lying (and by definition most cheaters lie, if only during the "hidden" phase of the affair) will not "come clean" unless there is the threat of being caught and then having more severe consequences thereafter. It is just human nature.

Personally I think that W can, if and when so chooses, to apologize for some of the things he may have said in the heat of the moment. But to put ALL that guilt on him smells almost like blame-shifting and of trying to put his actions after finding out on the same par level as her affair.

And while it is true that the spouses do not "own"the other spouse's bodies, the most common implicit understanding of a non-open marriage is that there is a contract to "exclusive use"of said body parts for certain activities that is limited to the spouse. And in some cases (more often for men than for women) the knowledge and visual imaging that goes with the knowledge of certain "uses" of the said parts by unauthorized users can lead to severe and sometimes long standing damage to the BS's ability to ever "function" properly in that regard with the WS or sometimes with any member of the WS' gender. So it can be a Very Big Deal.

I personally would stop "guilting" W into doing anything. He came here to vent and to ask for advice, not to be lambasted for being honest and sharing even things that he is thinking of...

posts: 41   ·   registered: Jul. 28th, 2005   ·   location: USA
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glasshouses ( new member #49401) posted at 11:44 PM on Sunday, August 30th, 2015

It did occur to me that I might look suspiciously like a friend of the wife! I'm actually British and I live in England so I couldn't be further removed from Wallop and his family. I came to this site because the stuff in the press about Ashley Madison disturbed me. It got me thinking about infidelity, lying and betrayal in general and what happened to me. My situation is very different from Walloped. The guy who cheated on me turned out to be a serial liar, a cheater and someone who was violent and malicious. It ended with him being arrested outside my house having stalked me for several weeks. He was a seriously disturbed guy who took pleasure in hurting people. So I get that sometimes you can be wrong about people you care about. And that you need the support of your friends (or a group like this) when you feel you can't trust your own judgement.

It wasn't my intention to guilt or shame Walloped (and if you read this Walloped I really hope I haven't heaped more misery onto your situation. It sounds to be like you're doing your best to do the right thing in the face of horrible circumstances. But as you've said sometimes hurt and anger get the better of you and you say, do or feel things you're not proud of. Totally understandable.) I've just picked up on the things he said and wanted to offer some support to him when he says that he understands his wife, believes her and doesn't think she's all bad. I tend to agree with him. But I accept that I could be wrong.

At the end of the day all of these posts, including mine, are just opinions from strangers. And I get the impression that Walloped recognises that and is treating them as such. He is clearly very independently minded and will do what he thinks is right in the end. After all it's him that will have to find a way to carry on his life with his wife and family when the dust settles.

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glasshouses ( new member #49401) posted at 11:53 PM on Sunday, August 30th, 2015

Just to add I don't disagree that it was sensible for the wife to get an STD test. I think your (longtime suckered) description of the justification was unnecessary graphic. When I had to get tested when I was cheated on it was intrusive and humiliating. I didn't mean to shame Walloped for his private response. I was just pointing to it as an example of the situation making him have bad thoughts that he himself said (I can't remember his words exactly) that he felt he wasn't proud of. I think he should trust that feeling.

[This message edited by glasshouses at 6:16 PM, August 30th (Sunday)]

posts: 6   ·   registered: Aug. 30th, 2015
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