SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Emergent8,

Sorry the analogy is offensive. Sorry that single men (and taken dirtbags) are pursuing women specifically for sex and that more or less it is "for sport". That's reality. No one is being tricked or lied to though (in as much as what I'm talking about which is building a discussion leading to admission of shared attraction then hooking up, plenty of dudes use lying as part of their approach).

Straight women have no experience trying to hookup with straight women. Maybe you don't even like hooking up and you aren't even part of the pool out for casual sex. That's fine. That's your perogative. If I were to ask your advice on what the most effective way is to hookup with a woman I just met what would it be? I'm happy to listen to your expertise. What worked on you for a man to get a ONS out (maybe that never happened for you, maybe it has nothing to do with what he did)? I also know what I've seen and what has been effective in my experience. I'm not going to pretend it never happened because it offends sensibilities.

[This message edited by This0is0Fine at 1:56 AM, Saturday, March 4th]

This guy knew we were in a relationship, and has even met me a couple times before. He was in a position of power over her, and she has known him for 10 years. He has tried to pursue her in the past on multiple occasions (before we were dating) but she never allowed his advances.

I skimmed over this quote in my first reading, but I think it's significant to the story. OP is not clear on what kind of position of power he had over her. Was it a job? Her career? Something professionally related? If he truly had psychological power over her, he had NO excuse for what he did. Maybe that's why her no was a soft no. She was fearful of what her no, once again, might cause him to do. I remember losing a job as a teenager because I (been employed longer and had better job reviews) my boss was sleeping with a co-worker. It certainly taught me a lot about the kind of message putting out sends to men in power. It's so sad to see the lesson is still being taught today.

I also know what I've seen and what has been effective in my experience.

You've made it clear that you think it's fine for a man to continue to try to get laid by a woman even if she's said no. Because sometimes she will eventually say yes.

Why any man would want to have sex with a woman he had to talk into,or harass into, having sex with him is weird. An immature girl might play that game. A women doesn't. A woman,if single, and interested and attracted to a man,will say yes. No need for the man to get pushy.

[This message edited by HellFire at 12:00 AM, Monday, March 13th]

I read through this thread again after noting number4 comment above.
I too will raise my hand and acknowledge not taking enough note of that statement.
People in a position of power have a higher obligation than others to behave in certain ways and this behavior is definitely a breach in expectations. This does imply at the very least sexual harassment from the OM.

I still think though that as far as relationship issues are concerned the GF needs to focus on her drinking and stand 100% behind my suggestion of a period of sobriety.

I am really thankful for the men on this thread who actually were interested in hearing about women’s experiences rather than trying to tell us what our experience is and what it is we want, it gives me hope.

Bigger, I hear your advice, and it has been taken. My girlfriend agreed to stop drinking for 1 year. We are at the 6-month mark right now and she hasn't had a drop of alcohol. She says it has not been difficult at all. She says that when something this important is on the line its easy. I honestly don't know if she will ever drink again - at least not to excess.

That said, I am still having a hard time wrapping my head around what happened. I am struggling.

As far as this man's position of power, I don't want to say too much, but essentially it's like a "sports coach" relationship.

These are the facts that make me want to stay in the relationship:
- she told me right away and has been honest about everything
- they did not have sex
- she was blackout drunk
- he called the event 'unfortunate' and said she looked 'uncomfortable'
- when I talked to him directly he didnt mention ONE thing about her initiating anything. It was all "I did this" "I assumed you were broken up" "I" "I" "I". nothing about what she said or what she did
- our relationship was really strong up until this event
- in reading all of her past conversations with this guy there was never anything sexual or romantic

These are the facts that keep me up at night:

They used to ask each other to hang out all the time. My girlfriend said this was because she thought he was a friend and when she was new to town she thought he would be a good way to meet people since he was established and one of the few people she was familiar with.. they rarely ever actually hung out, just talked about it. But there was one message that said "Lets hang out soon, miss ya!". She often referred to him as "pal" "dude" or "friend" in her messages. Maybe women can comment on this, but if she was actually interested in him, she probably wouldn't have bailed on him over and over again?

She admitted to me that when she first met him, 10 years ago, she thought he was cool, attractive, but when she got to know him she realized he was just a "party guy" and only wanted to be friends. She is steadfast that she did not want to hook up with him.

She cheated on a previous boyfriend once before, but says it was completely different circumstances. She was very young at the time, 19 or 20, and in that case she said it was intentional because her BF at the time had moved to a different city for work and was ignoring her. Her BF at the time wanted to forgive her but she ended the relationship. In this instance, she actually had a romantic interest in the OM and ended up dating that guy. Seems like very different circumstances, but it keeps me up at night. She of course recognizes that it was not a mature thing to do, and she said she was just young and made a mistake in terms of how she handled it.

And ofcourse, I am haunted by his claim of her performing oral on him. Although I suppose she could have been coereced, pressured, or felt obligated (since he performed first). And it is possible that he is elaborating to make things sound more consensual than the were. I will never know.

At the end of my conversation with him - when I talked to him directly - he said this to me: "I want you to know that I asked her, 'are you sure nobodys going to be mad if we do this? and she said 'no' " I felt as though he was lying, but I will never know.

Assuming that your description of her friendship with this guy is accurate, it sounds like your gf had friendzoned this guy and probably wouldn't have hooked up with him if she had been sober. He made romantic overtures to her in the past, so it's not like she lacked opportunities to consummate their relationship before this incident. I doubt she wants anything to do with him now.

As for whether you can get over her performing a sex act on him or put aside her cheating in a previous relationship, that's entirely up to you. There is no right or wrong answer; you have to decide what you can live with. If you feel in your gut that these are dealbreakers, you're better off ending things now than dragging it out. It's not like you're married and have kids or division of assets to consider.

Lastly...

At the end of my conversation with him - when I talked to him directly - he said this to me: "I want you to know that I asked her, 'are you sure nobodys going to be mad if we do this? and she said 'no' "

Sounds like horseshit to me.

This thread is unfortunate and, at the same time, intriguing. I've learned a lot about how women perceive the world.
But, rothman9499, I don't understand how your reasoning works.

She couldn't even remember where it happened, how they got there, or any details. All she could remembers is a flash memory of his face being close to hers and then a flash memory of walking home.

She was uncomfortable, she stopped it, and she did not want to be participating in that.

She doesn't remember.

She is adamant that there was NO CONSENT, and NO INTENT.

How could she possibly if she doesn't remember? I don't want to trigger you; therefore, I won't go into possible scenarios.

they did not have sex

She doesn't remember.

This guy knew she was vulnerable

She doesn't remember, and you don't know this. You can assume, but he was also drunk.

he made sure to get her alone

Another assumption. You are making him a predator, but you do not have any way of knowing his reasoning. Nobody is a mind reader.

I will never know.

That's true. You can't believe what the guy said or accept what she said because she does not remember.

I don't believe someone in a blackout can consent to sexual activity.

Everybody would have agreed if she had lost consciousness, but she did not. She was blackout drunk, so for the other person, she would look intoxicated to some degree, but it's pretty hard to know whether someone has problems with access to Intermediate-term memory. We don't know what is happening in the other person's mind.

Consent must be possible to assess by other parties without knowledge about what is exactly happening inside a person's mind. What you are saying is that a drunk person can't give consent.

Bottom line, there is a huge difference between just "being drunk" and being "blacked out".

There is, but not for the people around that person. You can't put responsibility for the internal state of one person on another. Her feelings and memories are valid but only she knows them.

The trick is that he was also drunk and couldn't give consent. If we, for a second, treat them equally - without sexism, they both raped each other. If we do not treat them equally, we open the door for arguments that he can ask as many times as possible because he is a man, and men are supposed to do this.
Maybe not being from the US is why I perceive this double standard as strange: He is a man; therefore, when they are drunk, he is a rapist.

And what is the consequence of being blacked out? It means that women are put in a position of vulnerability.

I like Gladwell, but here he removed any agency from the woman. Let's treat a woman like a grown-up person. She was not put in a position(by who? alcohol?). She put herself in a position.

. In the case of my GF, this is not an established pattern of behaviour, and she has drastically transformed her life over the past 6 months as a result of what happened. That means a lot to me.

And that's great.

As far as this man's position of power, I don't want to say too much, but essentially it's like a "sports coach" relationship.

These are the facts that make me want to stay in the relationship:
- she told me right away and has been honest about everything
- they did not have sex

Sorry to say this, but they did have sex. They didn't have sexual intercourse, but they had sex. Saying they didn't is rug-sweeping. I get it... you don't want to face the fact that sex occurred (whether it was consensual, or whether it was assault or rape, you may never know) because it will hurt that much more. If it wasn't sex, then it must be OK for both you and she to go out and have oral anytime you want with no consequences. I don't think that's how either one of you feels.

If I found out my H *just" had oral sex with someone, but didn't have sexual intercourse, it would hurt just as bad.

Also, I agree with stich... for someone who says she blacked out, she's coming up with some pretty convenient excuses to justify what happened. If this guy has power over her, and realizes what he did was wrong, he's going to say whatever he has to, to protect himself.

In the end you will probably have to come to terms with the reality that you're never going to know exactly what happened, and if she truly blacked out, she won't either. That's the question you have to ask yourself. Can you live with that? No one on an internet board can answer that for you.

On a completely different note, my experience with someone who has a drinking problem (and your GF does) is that it often takes more than one attempt to stop drinking. Many, many people who have drinking problems say they're going to stop, and do for a long period of time, such as six months, a year, etc. But when that time is up, and they start drinking in moderation, the reality is that it escalates again. My husband did this several times - once even quit for almost two years, then started up again, and it was not pretty. His issue was binge drinking. But he has now been sober for about eight years. He says he doesn't crave it or wish he still could drink. In those early attempts to quit, he still missed it. I share all this to say you should probably think about what a future life might be like with her. It's very rare to find someone that drinks in the manner you described, and is able to maintain sobriety once that set period of time is over. Drinking on that level is a form of self-medicating and only she can answer what she's self-medicating for. You didn't ask for my opinions on that, and I think it's an entirely different issue than what happened that night. They are separate issues that need to be dealt with separately.

Another update...

I asked my GF to text the man and confirm whether or not she did actually perform oral on him, seeing as he seemed unsure of this when they were on the phone.

She sent him a text today saying: "Hey, can you please confirm to me whether or not I gave you head that night, I can't remember what you said on the phone but you seemed unsure. I just need to know"

He said: "No, you did not"

...

Not sure why he would lie about this to her - he has already confirmed and admitted to performing oral on her, so what would be a motive to lie about her performing on him? If he was going to lie, it would probably be the other way around.

It seems he tried to paint it more consensual than it was on the previous phone call... but now that he is being asked directly, he has admitted it didn't happen. Another BIG coin in the "she was taken advantage of" column IMO.

I know these details don't matter to any of you, and the bottom line is she did not deserve any of this. But having these clarifications will definitely help me move forward and be a supportive partner to her.

Again, as many have said, alcohol is the real issue and is being addressed. Thanks for everyones comments and support for both of us.

Not sure why he would lie about this to her - he has already confirmed and admitted to performing oral on her, so what would be a motive to lie about her performing on him? If he was going to lie, it would probably be the other way around.

Dude's been chasing her for a while. As a player why wouldn't he. Might shake her loose from you and he can catch some rebound action. On top of that saying she kind of into it instead of passed out or falling down drunk helps him avoid any potential charges. One of the reasons talking to the AP isn't always recommended. They have no reason to be truthful and often have reasons of their own to lie.

Not sure why he would lie about this to her - he has already confirmed and admitted to performing oral on her, so what would be a motive to lie about her performing on him?

I'm not sure I understand your question. We have a 5 page long thread about whether he raped her, and you are asking why he has a reason to lie and minimalize what happened? Give him a little time, and he will tell you that he imagined all that, and they never met at that party.

IF anything, the OG's response makes things that much LESS clear. Maybe he's lying; maybe he's not. I can't imagine you believing any story he tells. The bottom line is that you are not blaming her for her actions, and are moving forward.

Again, as many have said, alcohol is the real issue and is being addressed.

THIS. Again, and again, and again. As hard as this has been on you, it could have been so much worse, being that there is no memory. She could have turned up dead in a ditch. Sounds dramatic, right? It happens way more than we like.

@Stitch, Your opinion on the matter means nothing to me

What's the point in him saying, "I know I went down on you" but "You did not go down on me" ... if he wants to protect himself? This makes the encounter look very non-consensual.

If he was going to lie about it I believe he would either lie all together and say something like "nothing happened" or he would try and paint the encounter as consensual - which he tried to do at first. There is a reason he was "unsure" about this detail the first time he was asked - because it didn't happen. That's why we asked again.

And at the end of the day, you - some stranger on the internet - have no idea if he is lying or not. It's comical that you are trying to educate me on what happened that night. I am the one that talked to him face to face. My girlfriend spoke with him on the phone and has known him for 10 years. Let us decide what is the truth. As hard as it is for me to say, I don't believe this man is a "rapist predator". I think he is a creep, I think he tried to push his luck with a blackout drunk girl that he has had his eye on for years, but I don't think he raped her and is now lying to us about it.

Rothman

Read over the responses here on this thread and you will notice certain groupings. I do realize I’m making broad statements, but my focus is on your healing and the ability for you, your GF and possibly your relationship to move forwards. That "move forwards" might be ending it, it might be reconciling. Frankly that’s not my issue. My issue is that you two don’t get stuck in this impasse:

There are those that insist she was a willing participant in whatever took place.
There are those that insist that she was assaulted/raped because she wasn’t capable of giving consent.

Me?
Well… I am 100% for accountability, and that’s why I’m suggesting she look at her drinking.

We have this misconception about alcoholism and think it has to imply you can’t stop drinking. As in you start your day with vodka and drink all day. It’s a complex mental and physical disease, and for SOME it simply means you can’t control your drinking when you drink, rather than frequency of drinking or quantity of drinking. I shared the story of my wife’s friend, and how that wasn’t a one-off case, but something the good people at AA seemed to recognize as relatively common.
There are theories about this. My knowledge of addiction is mainly based on questions I had for myself and experience with close family members. I have also volunteered with an organization that helps young recovering addicts in moving forwards.

Your GF might be an alcoholic simply because when she drinks she tends to drink to a stage of blackout. One theory about alcoholics is that their metabolism functions differently so that we "normal" drinkers feel queasy or even pass out, whereas the alcoholic regularly just goes to black-out. So it’s not frequency or even quantity – but rather reaction.
Or she might have a bad drinking pattern… This is what I had. I realized that for a period in my life I was drinking Thursday- Friday and Saturday evenings with my friends. Week after week. I started questioning if I was alcoholic, and self-imposed a 3 month period of sobriety just to better understand myself. Turned into 8 months, simply because once I broke out of that pattern I didn’t really have a need for drink. Now – 25 years later – I have a healthy relationship with alcohol.
Maybe your GF is an alcoholic – maybe she has an unhealthy drinking pattern. Time should tell.

But… I am 100% for accountability and that means I won’t let her completely off for her actions.

Rape? Assault? Well… yes.
But keep in mind there are definitions for both terms. Moral, social and legal. If I was to place my open palm on your chest and forcibly but in a controlled manner push you away that might be seen as assault in your eyes and eyes of beholders but might not meet the standard for a formal legal charge. It’s the same with sexual assault and even rape, and that’s one reason it’s so darned hard to get convictions in court.
Morally – if a man has sexually penetrated a woman who then maybe a minute or two into the act tells him to stop… Anything after that is rape. Legally – no… wouldn’t fly.
Do I agree with these definitions? No. But that’s not the issue. The issue is that LEGALLY – and that’s often how we see the world – there is accountability too.
IF your GF was assaulted and IF she was raped… there is some accountability… but what to do with it is the issue IMHO.

This doesn’t mean I see her as a "willing participant". But a participant. She has some accountability for maintaining a drinking-pattern that repeatedly leads to blackouts. She has no accountability IMHO for being assaulted in that condition.

The OM?
Well… It would be better if this was more black-and-white. But frankly he sounds like a normal, semi-decent man trying to do the best after definitely wrong actions and behaviors. It would be better for your recovery if he was a bragging SOB or flat-out refused cooperation…
Overall I cut him some slack because if we are going to give your GF slack for being drunk then we can give him some slack for being drunk. It should be ingrained in all men (all people for that matter) to be responsible and to ensure consent when interacting with other, but life isn’t that simple.

His big failures IMHO and the biggest plus-factor for your GF side is his position of power.

I have been in positions of power for decades. As a LEO, as a manager…
When I go out with my subordinates at work I have to keep a different head than when going out with friends as equals. Even though some of my subordinates are my best long-term friends. This is such a basic rule, one taught in business ethics, coaching, heck… all over the place. If your GF has previously made it clear what their relationship should be (as her coach, as her friend) and spurned romantic advances… he is in the wrong unless she initiated and he replied.

But… This one instance probably doesn’t meet standards required to take this matter further.
Now – if this person is coaching a female-team of some sorts… I would put my ear to the grapevine and see if he has a pattern of misusing his position. That would definitely warrant a call to the board or his superiors. Heck… maybe even an informal call to one of his superiors, just in case this is the third call they are getting…
But although morally and socially this is sexual assault and/or harassment… You definitely aren’t meeting the legal requirements.

Regarding her ability to make conscious decisions…
Again – legal and social differences. Being drunk is not really seen as an excuse in court. Nobody has gotten out of a DUI for being… drunk… and therefore not capable of making the rational decision not to drive.
But I have made stupid decisions while drunk…

I just don’t think we can expect logical decisions or a clear-cut memory of what took place. In fact – in this instance I would base the "truth" on what you can verify through other means that what she and he might say. That might lead to you realizing you will never get the "truth" per se and need to base your future steps on that.

The truth? You will hardly find a bigger advocate for the truth than me. But recollections and witnesses tend to be unreliable "truths" and that’s what you are using right now. We base them on what we think and experience, and that can change with time. We might truly believe we watched a rerun of Friends last Friday and that’s the truth for us, but just maybe it was Thursday, or a rerun of How I Met Your Mom. You might have to create your "truth" and I suggest you do that on the physical and circumstantial evidence you might have. Heck… at some point you need to accept there are big gaps and simply move on with what you have.

So… with all that… what to do…

Well…
I have two suggestions:
Think long and hard about if YOU can get past this.
Not if you ARE past this, but do you think that this will still be there in a year as a controlling emotion in your relationship?
For some her accountability weighs in heavier than her being a victim. That’s OK – I won’t judge you. This is a very individual, moral-based decision.

If that’s your result: End this relationship. Only do so on the right grounds, not because she did something, but because what she did or experienced is something you can’t deal with. That is perfectly fine – perfectly allowed.

The other suggestion:
Be very frank about your issues on this matter, but be vocal and honest about wanting to move on.
Not past, not rug sweeping… but move on from THIS to some other stage in your relationship.
Agree that ALTHOUGH she put herself in a position where something like this was more likely to happen than had she been "sensibly" drunk then she is a victim of assault. Maybe even unintentional assault (if that even exists…) but still assault.
That you two will work on handling those emotions, but that you both aim on a) making these emotions non-controlling in your relationship and b) prevent situations likely to cause repeats.

Whatever you do… Don’t expect her to accept being a victim or allow her to feel powerless.

Finally – There are great resources available for victims of sexual assault. Even such "indirect" or unclear (or whatever you might want to call it) assault as this might possibly be. That includes support for spouses and victim-families. I encourage you two to look into that.