SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Ok so this is probably just a result of my emotions being all over the place. I don’t want to try to decipher it because it could be false or change and I haven’t had enough time to actually think.

This is through text

She told me that she talked to a therapist today. She said the therapist said we needed marriage counseling. I said something like ‘the therapist said we should go to counseling while you date?’ and I asked if she really talked to one. I also sent her an article about therapy while cheating (TL:DR, it’s not a good idea).

She said she did talk to one, she knows she has to end it (first time she’s said that), and she’s trying to get us an appointment.

First, the obvious: she says she knows she has to end it: talk is cheap, she could lie anyway, etc.

That’s not what concerns me. A weight was lifted and fear spread throughout me. I realized two things:

I’m still playing the ‘pick me’ game.

And what caused the fear: even though I know that her words are illusions I recognized that I had the power - however briefly.

Holy shit, do I even want to stay with her?

I’m feeling all sorts of things, but my desire to reach out, to text, is gone. Hopefully it’ll stay that way - it’ll be helpful.

Time is your ally. Your emotions will be all over the place, and you feelings will change. Generally it is best not to make any decisions while enduring the shock of DDay. Ymmv! If you are sure this is a dealbreaker for you so be it and file ASAP.

I think you will see that there is a lot of sentiment against go8ngbto MC at this point. MC is aimed at resolving marital issues with an aim to save the M. Often the WS will use the opportunity of a MC session to blameshift on the BS for cheating. Often the counselor will support this blameshifting.

Look, you do not have a marital problem. Your WW has a cheating problem. She needs intensive IC to help her figure out how she became such a broken person to betray her BS.

Their is a necessary hierarchy of issues to be resolved. The need to address your WW’s cheating and infidelity issues which have destroyed the fabric of your M, supersede any marital issues that existed prior to her A. You can not hear this enough: nothing you did in the M, no problems or issues, caused your WW to cheat. She cheated because she wanted to do it. I would insist on your WW go to IC. MC will not help resolve her cheating. Good luck.

She told me that she talked to a therapist today. She said the therapist said we needed marriage counseling.

We did MC and what happened was that WW cried, got hugged, was told "we all make mistakes." And I was told "you need to forgive." There was no getting to the root of the problem - her and her decision to lie and cheat. It set us back for many years.

Your wife needs IC(individual counseling) to get at why she would do what she did to someone who loves her. You need IC in order to become stronger as a person despite the shit sandwich you've been served.

As long as you avail yourself as an option while the OM is still in the picture, you are playing the pick-me dance.

As for marriage counseling, it’s for the most part a waste of time at this point. What often happens is all of the little justifications she gave herself to cheat on you - you didn’t do this, you didn’t do that - get amplified in the counselling sessions and then the counsellor turns their attention to you as says “see what you did?” and you start questioning yourself, what if I had done things differently, and of course the answer is it makes no difference because she would have just created other justifications - you didn’t fix the broken toilet fast enough, or you didn’t cook often enough, or you didn’t cherish her enough, etc..

Based on feedback from these forums, very few counsellors appear capable of dealing with infidelity in a qualified way, and those that are qualified approach it via individual counseling sessions first.

LostOne

I’m going to chime in here and add something. You are getting good advice. And I’m glad to see that you are finally starting to heed it.

But I want to add something.

BS’s think if I can “just get her to start thinking in the right direction” then everything is going to fall into place.

But it’s never true. Telling her what she needs to do and finding a way to MAKE her do it, won’t bring you happiness.

Let’s say she just finally go NC with the OM, but she did it in her mind because YOU wanted it, not her, then two things happen:

1) now she thinks YOU OWE HER one because she did something she didn’t want to do, for you

2) she starts pining away for the man she can’t have now because you won’t let her.

Neither of those things help support reconciliation. Those things actually support FALSE reconciliation where she pretends to want you.

So I’m sorry, but accepting anything right now from her is just accepting fake remorse. She doesn’t want to give you anything.

The answer in my opinion, is to be completely honest with her about what you need. And completely honest with her about what you want.

So if it were me, this is the type of thing I would say or write to her right now.

Mrs Lost

And then I would stop talking to her about the relationship. It’s on her to go figure this all out. Just discuss finances and the Kids.

I’ve said this a lot here lately LostOne, but R does NOT begin when the WS says she agrees to START doing the work necessary to rebuild. No, Reconciliation BEGINS when she has almost FINISHED that work and done it well.

So don’t fool yourself into thinking that just because she says she chooses you that you have started reconciliation. You haven’t.

Wait and see what she does and how she does it and what she says. Until you hear DISDAIN for the AP and also for herself during the A, you don’t have a single thing.

I hope this helps and I wish you luck.

[This message edited by Stevesn at 12:10 AM, January 5th (Sunday)]

TheLostOne2020, you have found your strength and you are seeing it in her actions. I thought the most critical thing you questioned is, do you even want her?

Keep up the 180, and I would say f#ck the marriage councelling, you didnt cheat and nothing you did in the marriage caused her to cheat. Maybe sometime down the road, if YOU choose to R, marriage councelling would be beneficial.

This is all so new to you. The roller coaster has just begun. Sadness, anger, depression , all the emotions will swirl around for a long time.

You've heard it before, but again -

For now, see the attorney, prepare for the worst. She is not remorseful so reconciliation is not possible,yet. Why get MC now, save the money. Tell her she stops seeing him or you have no choice, there cant be 3 in your marriage. Get IC for you. Stop talking to her, stick to kids and house discussions.

Dont know if anyone else suggested but get "how to help your spouse heal from your affair ". Read it, give it to her, tell her that is what she needs to do. Do you want to be her sitter while she dates?

Bud marriage councilors are notorious rugsweepers or really bad at blaming the BS for the affair.

If you think an MC is gonna fix this you're sadly mistaken.

The chance at finding a decent on is probably less than 50/50.

Beware

I'm still in a really weird place right now. I just came home. She came into the room wanting to talk. I didn't really want to, but we did anyway. She said that her therapist suggested several books for her some codependency stuff, marriage counseling stuff, and I think individual counseling. I'm fuzzy but I think she also asked if I would do marriage counseling. I said sure.

Then she asked about what I did. I was vague, told her about the therapist, the lawyer (not the meeting tomorrow), and that I had to really think things through because I'm not sure why I want to bother with all of this.

I really need to figure my fucking self out because I was talking to the lawyer and at a minimum I'm looking at 10-15 grand. He said it might be 20-40. I do not have that kind of money. I'd probably have to cash out my 401k. Holy fuck. I have a meeting with him tomorrow. The effort is going to be immense it seems like. Ugh - but what choice do I have?

So now I'm sitting here thinking - I don't know if I want to be with her. I might not actually want to. If that's the case, should I be shooting for being under the radar? Start putting saving money for the lawyer, paying off some credit cards, that sort of thing? Until I'm financially ready?

I've been in such a rush. I think that could hamper me now. Shit.

Will I feel this way tomorrow? This is probably just depression or fear or what ever the stages of grief are.

Talk to 3 attorneys. Fees vary - especially if they smell money. The first hour is usually free.

Remember she doesn't need your permission to D either, she's still on the fence, take control and, give her a big push and remove you as her safety net, let her fight for the M she destroyed by cheating on you, that doesn't mean you have to R if you ultimately find out this is/was a dealbreaker for you, btw have you EXPOSED yet ?

At this point MC is typically a waste of time and money, right now her infidelity trumps everything else and as long as she's still dating and pining for OM all the MC in the world won't do shit, she first has to END her A and go NC FOREVER before you consider doing any of that, typically we recommend IC (with a therapist who specializes in infidelity) then MC. But remember she's still dating her boyfriend, you have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to work with at this point, EXPOSE her with ALL family and close friends and tell her she's got 30 seconds to text an NC FOREVER text to him (right in front of you), if she refuses to do this basic requirement, that's it, don't talk about MC or anything else, at that point all you should be talking about is D.

Is the other man married? Have a partner? If so, you need to inform her of what the piece of shit is doing. He’ll dump your wife immediately to deal with the fallout.

Your wife is not R material. She has to end the affair to begin R. She needs to go NC. Do not accept her continuing her affair. You’re just her plan B if her boyfriend and her don’t end up together.

No marriage counselling. It's a waste of time, money and emotions. The reasons have been well stated previously.

The rate given for D by the lawyer you saw seems high to me. Get another opinion. Better get two more. If it's a contested divorce it might be that high but surely it's not for an uncontested.

Hello Lost,

I'd like to say I'm sorry you being part of our club. Yet you have found the best club to help you get out of infidelity.

You have been through a whirlwind of emotions over the past few days. Your high on adrenaline and anxiety. Please find some time to get some serious exercise in. You keep saying that your having a hard time concentrating and keeping thoughts straight. Exercise will give you some clarity even if its momentary. The release of endorphins will calm you down and you will more like yourself for a while. Keep yourself well hydrated and try to eat healthy. If your having a problem eating, protein shakes are a good source of energy.

The thing is, you need to look after you now!!!! Followed by looking after your children.

You have questioned how do I talk to my kids. I'd tell them the truth in an age appropriate way. It's funny bringing the truth to light causes consequences to actions made. Your WW has not only ruined her relationship with you but it has ruined the parent child relationship of a complete family. All because of her selfish decision making.

Do not be fooled. She has made many conscious decisions to interact and engage with OM. It has been no mistake. And she still is making him more of a priority then you.

MC is a farse unless the MC counselor is trained in infidelity and trauma. Your WW needs to be held accountable for her conscience decisions and actions to engage in an A. Otherwise MC is useless as most MC promote rugsweeping and blameshifting towards the BS for WS actions. Once again an A is 100% your WW fault.

I hope you start to take some time away each day from your WW. Take the kids out for a while each day if you need to have them around. Go to the mall, bowling, or so other activities you can spend time with them.

Other times make your WW play mommy, and get out and go exercise, go to the library, a book store, go for a hike. Do something for you.

Reread Stevesn post above. It's a great thought process to start using. Others have used this I the past. Let her see that you will be ok without her. This is showing strength. Then continue with your 180. You have seen where your pick me.dance has gotten you so far...

Lastly, start putting your ducks in order. You have one appointment with a lawyer. Get two more. Asks new questions. Research ones that are pro mens rights. Then start getting your finances in order. Take half your joint saving out and open a new account without WW on the account. Review your account history. Was WW using money to spend on her AP? You may be able to get half that money back if you decide to D. You'll need to ask your lawyer what your local laws allow. If she has a spending issue. Cancel any joint credit card accounts. As you will learn, you will be responsible for half of any family debt. Dont worry about paying it down now. But if you stay on joint accounts, she can continue to spend then you'll be stuck with half of a bigger debt.

I hope you start to get a better grip on your new normal for now. Know this. It is hard going through this. You didn't ask for this. But you are and will rise to the occasion to move yourself out of infidelity and live a fulfilling life again. With or without your WW.

I’m realizing I don’t need counseling. I made major strides to fix our relationship over the past few years. I had some physical problems & it was bad for a while (maybe 2004-2010). It took a bit of a kick in the ass, but I was fixing my health problems and getting in shape. Our relationship blossomed and got really good.

Then her mom died. Around that time she started talking to OM. I caught her, she trickle truthed me. She denied, she played it off as no big deal - I went a bit crazy in my head. I got her to talk to people (family) and she finally claimed to have seen the light. She'd cut contact & we'd work on us.

I believed her & for a bit it was good, but she was secretly sabotaging us by continuing to talk to him. That corroded our relationship. I was too blind to see it, but subconsciously I wasn't. It may not have been the only factor, but it contributed to my depression. Then she started having sex with him and became extremely distant.

She blamed me. When the reality was that she'd slit our relationship's wrists and let it bleed out. Making me believe I was in the wrong. Fuck that's so fucked up.

I have stuff to work on, definitely, but not this

[This message edited by TheLostOne2020 at 7:36 PM, January 4th (Saturday)]

I haven’t fully exposed yet. I’m trying to manage myself. Maybe it’s just a passing feeling, but what the fuck do I want? Do I want the next 20 years to be full of suspicion, full of painful memories?

I’ve been going about this wrong. If this keeps up the 180 will be easier.

The mornings are tough, and maybe I’ll flip flop. I need to talk to the lawyer tomorrow, and then probably a few more.

She’s getting counseling, says she won’t see him, and acknowledges that she has to break it off. That buys me some time I think. What do I want?

It’s overwhelming at this stage, but try to relax a little. This isn’t a race. You control the timeline of your decisions, and what “you” want to do. Much better to make informed decisions when your head, heart, and gut are aligned, you know your legal options, you’ve considered the financial ramifications, etc..

What you “want” long term can wait, what you “need” right now is to get out of infidelity. You’ve already been given good advice on how to best achieve that.

Only time will tell.

She’s getting counseling, says she won’t see him, and acknowledges that she has to break it off.

Do you really want to invest in the words of a known liar? Watch her actions NOT her words. This all sucks, I know.

I get that you wish like crazy for things to turn back to normal. But your marital history is forever changed. It's entirely up to her to restore your marriage back to the state is was before she cheated.

The affair is the only thing on the table at the moment. You can focus on the the pre-A marriage stuff later. Forget MC.

Phantasmagoria said it well, you've got time to figure all of this out. Your brain is screaming at you to eliminate the threat right now!!! which is why you feel rushed. But the truth is, you've got time. 180 her for right now while you work to get all of your ducks in a row. See a few more lawyers. Talk to some IRL support via friends and/or family. Come up with a list of things you would need in order to R. Don't make it a task you have to finalize right now!!!, just add to it whenever something comes to you.

Also, Stevesn is a pretty smart guy who gives well thought out advice. When he takes the time to give anyone advice, I generally find it's a good idea to heed it

Now, I'm going to write a few things just to get you thinking. Any questions I pose are not meant to be answered right now!!! so try to tell that lizard brain to back off a little bit I know it's really, really hard when you're in the thick of it, and your brain is in I need to know what the fuck is going on right fucking now! mode, but try your best. Cortisol is not your friend.

*****************************

I've seen you ask that question a few times - what do I want?

In all honesty, you know what you want. You know you want a partnership with someone you can trust. Someone who wouldn't blame YOU for your inability to solve HER problems. Someone who doesn't think that someone else's genitals were going to be the magical cure-all for her feel-bads. Someone who wouldn't lie to, gaslight, and manipulate the person she made vows to and claimed to love.

But, that's exactly what you have right now. So the question now is, do you want her, as she is right now? Not the future her that you hope she could be, because that requires a lot of hard work and growth, two things she's showing you she doesn't care about too much right now. Not the past her either, because that woman as you thought you knew her doesn't exist. What you have in front of you is an immature, selfish person who chose to cheat. Just as your children together, and all of your past together will always be there, her wayward label will always exist. She will never NOT have done that. That will ALWAYS be part of your past with her. What she did to you will always exist in the timeline of your relationship, it cannot be erased.

Sure, people can and do change, so your future timeline might not have infidelity in it, if she chooses to put in the work. There are former waywards here who I admire greatly for their commitment to that change, and to bringing other waywards out of the fog and into the light. But if they were allowed to comment on your post here, any one of them would tell you that the sort of change this requires doesn't happen without a lot of fucking work, on herself. Not on you, or your relationship, but on her. Does your wife's behavior indicate a desire to change herself, or to change you?

The best predictor of future behavior is past behavior. Sad, but true. Are you going to bet your future emotional well-being on someone who has shown you she doesn't give a shit about it?

Unfortunately, my SI brother, I think you know exactly what you want. But you also know, that the person sitting in front of you, is NOT what you want. You thought she was, you believed she was, and now you know she isn't. Thus, your dilemma. I know what I want, and my wife isn't it. Now what?

I think the real question you're posing when you ask, "what do I want?" is what do I need to see/hear from her in order to know which direction I want to take, R or D? But you're just not asking the right question, which is:

Do I value myself enough to stop tolerating this abuse?

I think you do! So show her!

If you lay out a list of requirements for R - like NC, for instance - and she can't stick to it? Well, then D it is. If she does, well she might be considered a candidate for R, as long as she stays the course, and if she doesn't, well then, D is still an option, no matter how far into R you are.

The point is, the right path for you, R or D, will come to light as soon as you start showing her that you are worth more than what she's been giving. She has clearly forgotten that. So remind her. Because you are.

She doesn’t get to “break up with him”. This is not a movie. There is no big dramatic ending. She calls him on speaker in front of you and tells him to not contact her again. That is the end. Hangs up.

She acts like she is in fucking jr.high.

If she refuses, you move onto next stage of life... one that doesn’t involve infidelity.

[This message edited by Hg65 at 9:51 PM, January 4th (Saturday)]