SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Keep that powder dry

People use that phrase when they are actually engaged in conflict, and are being tactical about when to deploy certain weapons. My friend, I echo what Bigger said. You are being strangely passive. This isn't a tactical decision, is is a fear-based retreat.

I understand the concern (explained in your post in another thread) about the possibility that POSOM's betrayed wife then divorces him, freeing him up to pursue your WW. But really, if your WW's commitment to your M is that tenuous, why would you even want her around? Do you really want to live a life walking on eggshells just to keep her around you with one foot in the door and one foot out?

That is just another form of the "pick-me-dance". My suggestion is to go over to the Just Found Out forum and read about the 180.

Further, there is the fact that the betrayed OW is a human being who deserves to be treated with decency and respect. If the roles were reversed, would you want the other wife to make the same decision and keep you in the dark?

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 4:06 PM, July 16th (Monday)]

Please tell her. I wish like hell someone had told me.

Hey BFTG --

I've think about that question and a bunch of related ones pretty regularly...some of the Top 10 in my head: "I should do what's right: So what's right? Would I be doing this just for revenge? What would I do if I KNEW there would be no blow-back for me and my WS? What if I knew that by telling her MY path would be even more difficult? Am I choosing my safety and happiness over someone elses by not telling?" I could go on and on.

I may come off like an a-hole here, but your specific question is not meaningful to me.

Would I want to know? I think so. Based on the specific circumstances of my WS and I and my personality, I guess I would.

BUT, I don't know what the other wife would want and I don't want to make the mistake of projecting my personality on her. What I want and how I think is irrelevant to her situation.

...and yeah, I realize that some will see this as a convienient excuse to do nothing. It's complicated.

I haven't resvisited this topic with my IC since the first session I had with her. Perhaps it's time since I'm in a better place now.

But really, if your WW's commitment to your M is that tenuous, why would you even want her around?

True, that. And No. I wouldn't.

It's taken me a while to get to the point where I can begin to say that. (Whether I *mean* it is an entirely different thing...My IC is helping me with this. I have major fears here and I need to get right with me...)

I guess I "want to be sure" that doing so is the right thing since there will undoubtedly be a lot of pain. I feel like is semi-guided missile and once that SCUD is launched, who knows where it's going to land...

As to whether the other betrayed spouse would want to know, or not, certainly there are occasionally married people who do not want to know this. They are the rarity. If you spent days perusing all of the threads here by betrayed spouses who found out later about an affair, and learned that others knew and did not tell them, the overwhelming weight of opinion in 99.9% of the instances is that every unwitting betrayed spouse wishes he/she had been told the truth, even if by a stranger.

Similarly, BS's who have learned of an A via a tip from a random stranger (most often the betrayed OS) are 99.9% of the time grateful. It is a simple matter of decency and respect for the OBS. A person should know the truth about his/her marriage. Period. There does not need to be any revenge element at all.

And as to whether telling the BOW makes your path toward R more difficult, a WW who is moving in the direction of remorse, and R, will understand the wisdom in telling and respect you for it. A WW who gets angry and resentful is already moving away from R in any event. Again, you will not succeed in preserving your marriage if you walk on eggshells. You should be pissed off and angry and you should be raising your voice and telling your WW what an asshole she has been. You should practice the 180 and make her try to win you back.

On SI we view the A as having killed the marriage. The woman you thought you were married to has lied to you and betrayed you. Previously, you didn't think she was capable of that, did you? Now, it changes your entire paradigm of the marriage.

You might be able to re-build a new marriage, but only if you WW chooses to fix what was/is broken in her and then shows you through her actions that she is somebody new, somebody you can trust and love.

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 5:21 PM, July 16th (Monday)]

Sometimes you just need to make a decision.

I agree with most of the other people that you need to tell the OBS not only for you but for her sake and safety as well. Obviously therapy didnt work for him/them and he is still doing the same old thing.

Are you afraid of telling the OBS in case she does kick his backside to the kerb and then he will be free and available for your wife to be with him? I could understand your reluctance of telling for that reason.

Are you afraid of telling the OBS in case she does kick his backside to the kerb and then he will be free and available for your wife to be with him? I could understand your reluctance of telling for that reason.

Yes, that and (when if I'm being totally honest) I worry that SHE will flip out, too.

I'm figuring out very late in life that I'm motivated to avoid conflict on the hard stuff - I want everyone to like me. Hell, I'm totally worried how YOU guys are responding to me!

I typically am able to manage/finesse my way through things. This is different and my old habitual approaches aren't a great match. Know it, am trying to own it. IC is helping too. Still every part of me is screaming "Don't do that!! Danger!"

[This message edited by HarryChicago at 7:53 PM, July 16th (Monday)]

Here is your script. Phone her during the day, when POSOM is unlikely to be around. Or at work if you can get her number. Don't leave a message. If he answers, hang up.

If a woman answers:

"Hello, may I speak with Mrs. Piece-o-shit, please"

"This is MPOS"

"Well, you don't know me, my name is Mr. Betrayed. I'm calling to let you know that your husband, Mr. Piece-o-shit, and my wife have been having an affair. I caught them X weeks ago and I believe that the affair has stopped, but I felt that you would want to know about this. If you would like, I'm happy to share any information with you that I have about the affair."

Then, let the conversation go from there.

The worst that can happen is that she will get angry and respond with a curt: "Don't ever try to contact me again."

It's extremely unlikely that will happen. I've never seen a thread here on SI where that has happened, and I've never heard of it happening anecdotally. If it does, say: "Pardon me. I will do as you say and you will never hear from me again. If you change your mind, you can reach me at the number I am calling from."

What is more likely is that she will stammer and be at a loss for words. She may even sound hurt, or cry. In that case, you say: "I realize this may be a lot to digest. I will leave you and let you consider this matter. I'm happy to share any or all of the information I have. You can call me at this number whenever you are ready to ask me any questions."

HC-

I can understand where you are at. I lived in a bland R for a long time powered by my fear. My H came back to the marriage. He said he loved me and I believe he did but I also think if he could have had other options without consequences he may have gone in that direction. He was going to ‘try’. And that turned out to be transparency, apologies and giving me time and space to heal. Not much else except maybe some self pity.

The limp noodle version of R crawled along until the fear losing the good life we built was trumped by the fact I wanted an authentic marriage. That feeling battled with the fear until I firmly concluded that the status quo was safe but intolerable. I was exhausted and I invited him to pull his enlarged head out of his rectum or leave. And I meant it. What a freeing feeling.

It didn’t turn around on a dime. But I have to say his indecision cleared up very quickly when I took my codependent safety net away.

Hang in there. I hope that more than anything you get to the point where you can make a decision that is right for you and not worry if it’s going make anybody feel, do etc anything. Keep posting.

Just want to be as calm and measured about this as I can - even if that is mostly smoke and mirrors. It makes me feel like I'm more in the drivers's seat.

You are right about that. You need to detach. You need to let her know what life would be like without you. You need to see a lawyer. You need to risk your marriage to save it. You need to tell her "You can be with anyone you want, but not if you want to stay married to me." And breaking NC is being with him. You have to do the 180 and stop crying in front of her. Appear calm confident and ready to move on with life without her. Get tested for STDs and make her do the same as a condition of R. Don't make derogatory statements about her AP, it will only make her want to defend him and think about his good qualities; that was a mistake I made and I'm still pissed by her response "He is a really great guy and you'd like him a lot." I had to point out how none of my friends sleep with married women and no man who does or tries to is a "great guy" and to that point don't make it about their bad morals, make it only about how deeply you are hurt and say it without crying. One thing that you said that is back asswards is you need to manage the crisis, work on her and then yourself; you need to work on yourself first, you're the only one you have control over, she needs to fix her own shit and she'll only work on herself and the marriage if she knows that you are ready to end it if she doesn't come to her senses and fix her shit.

[This message edited by Gunnut at 8:48 PM, July 16th (Monday)]

.

.and yeah, I realize that some will see this as a convienient excuse to do nothing. It's complicated

.

It’s not complicated, if reading SI has taught me anything, it’s that it’s rarely more complicated than every other story of infidelity..... it seems to be the same story with new characters over and over again. I find it depressing to be honest, but that doesn’t mean it’s not true.

Your story whilst devastatingly personal to you, is unfortunately one that almost detail for detail has been told and retold over the time I have been reading here. In fact there has been very few incidents of infidelity that are out of the ordinary and follow a unique script or have a unique set of circumstances.

My point in saying this, is that many of the excuses you have used as a choice not to let the other mans wife know are just that, excuses.

You don’t want to impose your personality and ideals on someone else? Yet you make the decision to not allow her to choose what her ideals are?

The excuses you have listed, reeks of selfish and foggy thinking to me. The choices you have made for the other bs now make you complicit in condoning affair behaviour.

In my case, I didn’t have to make this decision because I knew the ap intimately enough to know that she was most definitely single. But I do know that the pain and destruction that rained down on my life was devastating and life changing and that I had every right to know what my life really was.

I’m always disappointed when I see a BS make the choices for another BS based on their own insecurities and selfishness. As a BS you know all the feelings that comes with infidelity, they are so mixed and complex that we can’t communicate just how devastating it is and how far reaching it can be. I just find it so disheartening to see a BS that KNOWS the complex web of betrayal then becomes complicit in someone’s else’s betrayal.

I'm motivated to avoid conflict

This isn't a conflict that you can avoid, is it, Harry? Like you, I had a tendency to avoid conflict. I built walls. Big ones.

Stop questioning yourself, brother. You know that informing the OBS is the right thing to do. It's the honorable thing to do. This woman deserves to know the truth about her marriage. Your silence makes you an accomplice to the affair. Don't accept that role when there's no good reason to do so. Most likely, the OM will suddenly becomes more focused on saving his own ass as opposed to dreaming of you wife's. I've been around SI for over three years and I've read dozens and dozens of stories and the vast majority of members will write the same things I wrote.

Expose, expose, expose! Affairs cannot thrive in the life of day.

Peace, brother.

HC, as I was reading your thread, I was getting more and more angry. Not at your wife, not at her POSOM. At you. And not about you not taking more decisive steps to get out of infidelity and give yourself more chances to save your marriage.

You see, I'm one of "I wish somebody told me" ones. And let me tell you - I despise those who knew but decided to keep quiet. In my eyes they are close to the cheaters themselves, because they knew about the crime being committed and kept silence.

Do you know what you are doing to that poor woman? You are robbing her of the right to make informed decisions about her life. You are helping AP (serial cheater), to keep her in an abusive marriage. She is sitting on a time bomb. Her WH didn't have consequences for this A, he definitely didn't have enough consequences for his first (or N'th) A. He will do it again (or is already doing it). Maybe next time he will get STDs from some whore OW and then pass it onto his wife. And will be too much of a coward to tell her, so when she finally realizes she has it, permanent damage is already done. Or he will fuck OW without condom and will allow his W perform oral on him in the evening. The ways for him to abuse his BW are limitless. The probability that he will stop doing that on his own is close to zero.

So, good luck trying to convince yourself that it is OK not to inform OBS. That it is OK to let other person suffer abuse just because you made up some rationalizations for yourself not to do the right thing. WSes in wayward section are quite experienced in this.

Now, I will tell you about probable outcome if you gather courage and tell OBS. Since this is not his first A, OBS might have set strict boundaries (at least for herself) and will be divorcing him. Yes, that's what you fear. He will be totally free to pursue your WW. There's a good probability that he will do it just out of revenge, because you informed OBS. So what happens next? He contacts your WW with the news (limitless possibilities to do that even if he is blocked everywhere), your WW suddenly realizes that she can be with her lover, her rainbows-out-of-his-ass-unicorn soul mate serial cheater. And she leaves you. OK, no. She doesn't leave you. You beg her to stay (BTW, that's what you are doing now), you walk on an eggshells for the rest of your life. She stays with you, but secretly laments her lost love and feels growing resentment with you, because you robbed her of the chance to ride into the sunset with him and live happily ever after (until he cheats on her/she cheats on him, but that is another story). In 10 years she finds another (or N'th) soulmate and divorces you.

OR.

You expose to OBS and whomever else you choose to. You say to your WW in no uncertain terms that she fucked up everything, and if she wants to remain married to you she has to roll up her sleeves and start working on proving that she wants you and only you and that she is safe partner to be with. That she can stuff all her feelings for AP up her ass and that it is her shit to fix. What happens next - she either does all of this or doesn't, so you leave her. Assume she starts fixing her shit. AP is single again, starts pursuing your WW. She tells him to go fuck himself. She fights for you. She fights for your marriage. She becomes person you are proud of. 10 years later she can look proudly at herself and say - "I almost lost it all, I almost lost this future. I was stupid. But I became strong. This is the life I built myself for me and for you, I treasure it, I will fight for it, always".

So, choose, which wife do you want? And don't fool yourself that you are on a path to 2nd version.

And some final points. In your first post you claimed that they didn't have intercourse. I was "ok, possible, but not probable". But once I heard that he is a serial cheater, "possible" became "impossible" (unless you have recording of them definitely NOT fucking, unless you have pages and pages of their conversations how they wanted each other but couldn't go through because of their strong morals). He came to fuck. She met him to fuck. That's what cheaters do. It maybe was EA for her. For him it was "ok, some nice words and she will spread her legs". If you have only her words, 99% they fucked. Anyway, "foreplay" means PA. Not that it makes any difference on how you should proceed.

I realize that this kind of post is more fitting for JFO. But, sorry, I haven't seen anything that would indicate any R is going on here.

ETA, realized that OP is married for 20+ years. In original post it was "15 years and 3 kids later she finds another soul mate...". I figured that it probably doesn't apply.

[This message edited by DarkHoleHeart at 3:12 AM, July 17th (Tuesday)]

The worst that can happen is that she will get angry and respond with a curt: "Don't ever try to contact me again."

It's extremely unlikely that will happen. I've never seen a thread here on SI where that has happened, and I've never heard of it happening anecdotally

It happened to me. OBS essentially told me to fuck off, that she doesn't need my "truths".

I would do it again, nevertheless. My duty was to report a crime. It was her business how to use that information.

"...and yeah, I realize that some will see this as a convienient excuse to do nothing"

It is.

HarryChicago you are not avoiding a 'value decision' by not telling the OBS, you are making one. And you are making the wrong one.

There's a ton of experience at your disposal here on SI and no-one is supporting your inaction. You need to consider that.

By phone, email or letter you tell her the facts. Period. She has a right to know, which you are denying her. How she then deals with it is up to her but that is her decision and not of your concern.

It will lay the facts out for everyone, it will blow up the A (for which you are not in R yet) and it will provide everyone with a genuine foundation for the future, whatever that may be.

This is not the time to be the 'guy everyone likes', it's the time to be an honest man of integrity. And you know what, people like those sort of guys.

DarkHoleHeart's example reflects the minority in my observation. We see many threads here where the two betrayed spouses collaborate and share notes to piece together a more thorough picture of the A.

By the way, if your WW gets angry with you after she learns you told the POSOM's BOW (and she will know -- he will figure out a way to communicate it to her), remind her that she did not consult with you before deciding to bring POSOM into your marriage. You are doing what is best for you, and you do not need her permission.

I did update this after Bigger's post, below, and I would echo everything he says.

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 6:18 AM, July 17th (Tuesday)]

Whether you have told the OM wife or not isn’t really the question we should be asking.

At the beginning of this thread CH talks about his wife pining for OM and still professing love for him.

The real question should be if that is still the case?

CH – has your wife settled for you?

Has she told you that despite loving the OM she can make a compromise and see out the rest of her life with Plan B. That she will accept a Hyundai since she can’t get a Cadillac?

Has she made you “earn” her back?

Harry - I never told OBS and I don’t regret it at all. It’s a theme here that people think we should guilt trip BS into telling because it’s “our duty”. No it is not! I have enough burden that I don’t need some strangers telling me what is right and wrong. If anyone truly knew me in real life, they would know that I am very selfless. When DDAY happened I had to be selfish to heal myself. Part of that was pulling my family closer and shielding any possible threats out. That included ANYONE related to the affair. I actually think what is selfish is when people here state their opinions in such a way that they are facts and we should feel shame for not following them.

With that said, if telling obs will help your marriage then that is what you need to do. In my opinion, if your goal is to R, then your steps should be to do whatever it takes to R.

Now onto my advice. Your wife is still fantasizing that OM is some white horse who is going to carry her into unicorn land with rainbow waterfalls. He most certainly is a pig disguised as a white horse. If you feel strongly that your wife, deep down, knows that with you is where she should be, then here are the steps to take, in my opinion.

1) Talk ALOT. Ask her her thoughts and feelings. I would just ask “what are you thinking about? Or What are you feeling? My husband would answer honestly. Especially since I’d ask at random times and he would have to be honest or I’d know he was lying. If she tells you some things that hurt (like “I’m thinking of other man”), ask her if her to think of the fond memory and then remember that during this fond memory she is hurtyou and her family. That in order to get that fond memory she had to betray all of the people who care about her and depend on her. Let her reframe it. I found when my husband told me these precious thoughts and then saw how sad and broken it made me, it took those precious thoughts out of unicorn land and back into reality. It’s like going to a party and having the time of your life and then waking up to find out you killed someone in a drunk driving accident. Not such a great time anymore.

2) tell her you want all of her. Finally at 6 months in my husband truly followed no contact. Until then he thought he could control it and had some contact. Our first step was NO CONTACT. To me this is absolutely vital. Then for a few months he would still think about her with some positivity. He told me he was reframing it. I believe that to some extent. I don’t believe he was lying but I think as they are unraveling the web they created, they still have some fantasy left. I finally told him that I needed all of him. I needed him physically, mentally and emotionally and I wouldn’t take anything less. That seemed to kick him into gear and he became more devoted and focused on me. I didn’t threaten to leave because I didn’t have to. My husband knew that with me he could be the best man and have the best life. I simply stated he could make me a priority and vest everything into me or I’d stop investing in him. Believe me he knew I was very good to him. He never really wanted to lose me. Perhaps me staying but not giving him attention would have been worse than leaving.

3) I recommend the book Steering Clear. It is Christian based and we aren’t very religious. But the information in that book really helped my husband realize the poor coping skills he had employed. The book breaks down fantasizing, rationalizing, minimizing, compartmentalizing, etc. pretty much he read it and realized that if he didn’t change some of those coping skills, he would literally live an unfulfilling and superficial life. It forced him to make many changes including quitting tobacco after 25 years of use and trying to quit a dozen or more times.

It’s been more than two years since my husband has 100% been all in and truly focused on me and our family. I’ve never seen him do content. He really is happy and calm. My husband before always wanted more. A bigger house, a smaller house, a different car, a different job, to go back to school, to get out of school. . . Now he lives completely in the now. We dream of the future together, but our happiness is in the now. The future is a rough guideline, not a “once we get there we will be happy”.

If you think your wife wants to be all in and wants you to be her priority, perhaps share this post with her. I feel that part of my husband’s problem was not knowing how to get to where we are today. It wasn’t that he lacked the desire. Many here disagree with my path because I helped my husband along (I didn’t do it for him), but we are happy and we talk about EVERYTHING in life. We truly move together as one, but are supportive of each other as individuals. I didn’t want to just tell my husband “figure your shit out on your own” because we are a team. With that said I didn’t enable him either. When he needed a smack on the back of the head I told him I needed him to be more mature and get on track. But he was motivated and still today he desires nothing more but to please me. His life is focused on pleasing me and taking care of our family. I’m grateful for him. Despite what he did, I couldn’t have a better husband. I know that is hard to understand. It’s hard for me to understand but it’s true. I think because we held onto each other and fought when probably we should have both died. But here we are together and grateful.