SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Stillstanding

Yeah.

This.

She is free to make her own choices and so are you. And then let her know that you refuse to be in a marriage with three people. If she wants a relationship with him, then you will do what you need to do to get out of this marriage.

And sadly this.

she is totally free to be with OM. You are happy that she is happy. Only – she can’t do so as your wife.

She has said things like "I will always love you", and I'm not sure what to say. In reality, if we do split I will not always love her. In the beginning, she would need to cease to exist for me to carry on. There will be a gaping hole in my life. Eventually, I might hold affection for her again. I hate even thinking about this though, it feels unhealthy and that I'm going through the Top 10 Worst Things that could happen to me playlist :(

I do need to be prepared that this is a possible outcome and have some sort of a plan. I'll be thinking even less straight than I am now if it comes to that.

I could have written your comment about your WS’needung’ your support now. Also your comment about sorting her out then focusing on you.

It took me a couple of years and a very expensive therapist to disabuse me if my notions of my own abilities to support/control/mend.

Simply put, when we think these things, although they are good kind thoughts, A), it is unlikely they come from a strong and pure place. And B) they are erroneous.

I understand completely that you are insufficiently readybto contemplate the end of your marriage to implements the approach suggested by Buggar and StillStanding, but the reality is, the sooner you can get to that place, the better your life will be, marriage or no marriage.

Please read about detachment. There are layers of detachment and it took me ages to understand what it might feel like. It’s a process. Then try,try, try to detach - ie separate your emotions from moving in rhythm with your wife’s emotions. This doesn’t mean you don’t care.

Then work on you. That can mean, in one level, gym, hobbies etc., but at a deeper level it means looking at yourself and your blind spots. Currently your shame at being in this position is paralysing you, your self esteem and your judgement

Counterintuitively, if and when you manage to surrender yourself to your pain and the humiliation of your circumstances and accept the pain instead of staving off the pain by fighting for your marriage in the way that you are, it is at that point that you and your wife will be able to connect and be vulnerable and true with each other.

I don’t know if this will help as being told is not like experiencing and processing it. I knew this in my head but I couldn’t understand it in my emotional self. It’s just that now I have eventually ‘got it’, I wish everyone could get it more quickly as it is so empowering in a gentle way and paradoxically allows you to support your wife in the way that you want and are trying to do now - except that now you are doing it from fear not from strength.

This next part of your life really is about you, not her. I wish you the best.

I am in the process of writing a letter to the OBS. I will print it and discuss it with my IC early next week, then likely send it.

Stop delaying. Being indecisive is what put you in limbo.

Send the other mans wife the letter now. Without warning.

I’d also say please stop thinking you need to support your WS. It is the other way around. Do they need support? Of course they do. Is it the responsibility of their victim to offer it? No.

Think of it like that: you are the victim of a rape. Your rapist needs support, a lot of it to prevent them from ever raping again. Do you think you should be offering that support? Hell no!

I thought the same as you. During the 4 months while my WH maintained contact with ow (just friends apparently ha!) every time he cried and self harmed by punching himself I was there to offer support. Hug him, cry with him, try to calm him down somehow and offer a glimmer of hope. Me to him. Well it turns out that my support wasn’t enough as the ow was better at telling him what an amazing man he is and he shouldn’t put up with my abusive behaviour (tracking him, checking all the communication avenues and having late night talks).

Now I just don’t care. In fact every time he needed support in the past he made me feel worse, like I was doing something bad by making him cry and suffer. By telling him how badly he betrayed me.

One night he came home suicidal just before DDay 2. He spent hours saying he wants to die. He went for a walk and I followed him thinking he’ll kill himself and I pushed him through it with not being able to move on. I felt so guilty and bad and I resolved myself to mention the affair less and less as poor thing was so affected.

Do you want to hear the story behind it? Well it turns out the ow was so threatening that day, she called me anonymously twice that morning, summoning him to a meeting room for 4 HOURS, preventing him from going to IC and making him late to pick up my dd from his parents, shouting at him for 4 hours, asking to see his phone, having my number dialled up except the last digit in case he wasn’t doing what she asked.

So while I was feeling guilty as hell for pushing him to the edge, while he was contemplating suicide, it never crossed his mind that if he would have done it I would have had to live with it for the rest of my life. To tell his mum and my kids “mummy pushed Daddy to kill himself”. How selfish is that? Making your wife feel shit and offer you all her support when it truth the ow was destroying you and you couldn’t stop lying?

So your priority is you. Only you. She’s not yet deserving of your support. She should support you if she has it in her but her only support now should be IC and her friends. Not you.

The first step in saving your marriage is reading Bigger's post again and then doing everything he said.

Anything different than that is going to work against you.

Glad you decided to expose. That's one of the most effective things you can do in terms of ending an affair (and you're not in reconciliation at this point. Not with your wife's current behavior).

One thing I would recommend is talking to the other wife (OBS) in person. Either on phone or face to face. I've seen too many stories of emails, letters, voice mails, packages, etc being intercepted by the AP. Or BS who get absolutely no response to their message and don't even know if it was received or how the OBS feels.

I'd only recommend using a letter if you place it in her hands directly after confirming her identity.

Again exposure should be done in person. And you should have whatever concrete evidence available as proof when you do.

And yes No Contact means exactly that, No Contact. Letting your wife reach out to that guy was a pretty big mistake but it's understandable. But this guy had a hand in nearly destroying your marriage. You both need to understand that but your wife especially. No Contact.

You guys still sound pretty early in the process but you have to stop trying to nice your wife back and acting weak towards and in front of her. All you're doing is making the AP, or at least the idea of him, look like the better choice in her mind.

I'm not saying be an asshole or bury how you feel, but your wife has lost a lot of respect for you and you need to start taking it back sooner rather than later. Or your marriage isn't going to recover even if this guy leaves the picture.

[This message edited by JS84 at 8:20 AM, April 6th (Friday)]

I hate even thinking about this though, it feels unhealthy and that I'm going through the Top 10 Worst Things that could happen to me playlist :(

Probably higher to the top of the list is your current reality - living with your WW while she claims to be in luuurrve with her AP. Truly, being away from such crap is healthier than being in the thick of it. Part of the trauma we have to process as BSs is to realize that the old M is actually, truly GONE. Current reality is our spouses are cheaters. While we're working on accepting this shit-storm, sometimes we lose track of the fact that we need to look at who our WS is today, not who we thought they were yesterday.

Being separated and detached from a cheater is healthier than being with one, and volunteering for the role of Plan B.

Harry

IMHO one of the mistakes we that pretend to know better make is to think in all-or-nothing solutions. Notice I never told you to divorce. I didn’t outline a step-by-step guide to how you should file and have her processed. I did not say you should tell your wife that she must choose or else you will file. What I suggested was that you tell her that you don’t want to share and that she is free to decide what she wants. By default, then YOU too are free to do what you want. Until she clearly tells you and shows you what SHE wants then YOU can only follow the path that’s open to you out of infidelity.

A key-factor in dealing with infidelity is making it reality. I sometimes think the “file for divorce and have her served at work” stance that’s often quite loud here on SI is adding to the drama rather than making it real. Filing for divorce is only a milestone on the path of divorce. The first step IMHO is simply deciding you don’t want to share your wife and you can’t force her to be with you. So, create conditions that make HER must choose, and do so while making YOU an attractive option.

I take it you aren’t OK with your wife having a lover.

After all – if you were fine with that you wouldn’t be posting on an infidelity-site.

It’s a valid point – there are numerous cases of where a betrayed spouse accepts some form of open marriage. It can be an open agreement, you could turn a blind eye and pretend not to know or whatever. But I take it you aren’t happy with what’s going on. If the absolute worst outcome from this affair would be losing your wife… well… seriously consider allowing her to have her lover. Pretend to believe her when she dresses up on Fridays to go out with the “girls”.

Maybe this comparison might make my point:

Imagine you wake up in the middle of the night and there is a fire in your house (the house being the marriage in this scenario). What would be the logical actions? What you are doing is you have realized the fire is in the spare bedroom and it MIGHT be contained there. But then you are hoping it won’t spread. That’s all. You are asking us how to contain the fire while it burns itself out. Your suggestion of sending the OM a letter is about as sensible and logical as asking the fire to burn slower or maybe go over to the neighbor’s house.

I guess your first thoughts wouldn’t be about what damage the fire might cause. You wouldn’t have second thoughts about dialing 911 because it might disturb your neighbors. You wouldn’t ask the firemen to take off their boots to preserve the hardwood floors. You wouldn’t ask them to blow on the fire to extinguish it rather than use water to prevent the drapes getting wet. You wouldn’t call a contractor right away. You wouldn’t start rearranging your living-room while the kitchen was in flames. You wouldn’t settle for the firemen leaving while there were embers still glowing…

I’m suggesting you – in a certain way – deal with her affair as you would a fire. You call on the resources that might help you extinguish the affair. The OM GF/W is the fire department. That is the 911 call.

Refusing to allow her to wallow between you and OM, that’s you inviting the firemen in the house and not worrying for now on the damage caused to extinguish the fire.

Carrying on your path… that’s not taking a coffee break from extinguishing the fire because as long as there is a single ember it’s still a threat.

Worrying about what happens in the future… That’s waiting to contact a contractor to fix damages until you KNOW the fire is out and it becomes apparent what needs to be done.

I stand by my advice. Your wife is totally free to love OM and it sounds like OM isn’t going to respect any boundaries you might place on him. A letter… that’s just a joke for him. That’s feeding the drama. Your wife… she KNOWS what she’s offering isn’t acceptable, yet she does while it’s all romantic and riding unicorns in the sand along the beach at sunset. Make it REAL. Expose the rust in the White Knights armor, make her realize the horn on the unicorn is Paper-Mache and taped on an old nag. Make her deal with reality by responding to her actions for what they are. With reality.

Hey Bigger -

See my pending "reply to all" post. Just wanted to be de-confuse something. Was never considering sending a letter the OM....unless it contained anthrax? :) (Seriously, FBI folks reading this...that was a joke).

Mail to the OM wouldn't be worth the electricity I paid for my laptop to compose it. No way in hell. I was talking about a letter to the guy's spouse.

[This message edited by HarryChicago at 11:45 AM, April 6th (Friday)]

All (especially Luna, Bigger, *Okokok* and Nerissa)

Again, thanks for your support and advice.

I know you guys have seen this movie over and over again and know how it ends. You're trying to spare me pain and get me to a point where things start getting better FOR ME. I appreciate it and am grateful.

I still need to let this play out a little. Something happened for the first time last night and this morning that I thought I'd pass along, though...

I asked my wife if she was really committed to me and fixing the marriage. Then I told her:

- The marriage we knew is dead

- That I was willing to try and build something else under certain circumstances

- The situations I find unacceptable which mean re-building won't happen

- That I won't tolerate this being all about her

She said she wanted us to be together, that she heard me, and she understood.

Later in the morning I found her in the kitchen, and in distress. Normally this would make be feel terrible and "come to the rescue". I didn't. It didn't bother me. I hugged her, told her I hoped she was able to work through whatever it was, and left.

It felt great.

I know that you guys want me to go further. But this was an important step for me. She just has to deal with her own shi*t. I'll help where I can, but these are her problems.

And with that, I need to get back to work.

[This message edited by HarryChicago at 3:20 PM, April 7th (Saturday)]

It took me months post Dday to come to a simple realization -- I have a core NEED to be treated with love and respect. That need informs MY boundaries -- that I won't accept anything less than being treated with love and respect. I pass this along to you because it is incredibly applicable.

While the rules (e.g. no contact, IC, transparency, honesty) all are good and are forms of clear communication, there can sometimes be "loopholes" or "omissions" that a WS (wayward spouse) then exploits. While the rules can stand, also communicating your core need can be helpful in preventing you from having to play "police" and deal with loopholes/exceptions.

Let's take a few examples...

- She was so concerned about the AP's situation that she brought the situation to you, allowed the guilt to soak in and got permission to break NC for an "exception". That's manipulative.

- She openly tells you that she is in love with her AP. That's not loving.

- Despite having directions on how to block the AP, she only unfriended him. That's an excuse and it is disrespectful.

You shouldn't tolerate any of those things. Disconnecting via the 180 is a good first step. If the lack of love and respect continues, additional steps should be taken.

Out of respect for the other betrayed spouse, please let her know. While it may help enforce future NC, that isn't the primary point. Just like you, the other betrayed spouse deserves respect and you are in a unique position to deliver the news in the most appropriate way.

In terms of your wife's feelings -- according to what I heard from my wife and have seen here, it can take a while to work past the affair feelings. However, that is something that she needs to commit to and that she can handle with her own counselor because sharing it with you is opening up the serious emotional wound that she already gave you. At this point, it sounds like she is nurturing her feelings instead of trying to work herself out of them.

Sounds like you are moving in the right direction.

Do tell the AP spouse. She deserves to know. It will be hard for both of you but she needs to prepare and protect herself (and her children if there are any). She needs STD testing, so do you, there are STDs that can kill.

Ok Harry, please keep us updated with what's going on with your wife.

I asked my wife ishe was really committed to me and fixing the marriage. Then I told her:

- The marriage we knew is dead

- That I was willing to try and build something else under certain circumstances

- The situations I find unacceptable which mean re-building won't happen

- That I won't tolerate this being all about her

And something to think about before your next post: if/when something unacceptable or intolerable happens, do you have an idea of what your next move will be? Better to know ahead of time.

Crushed, Trusted, OKOKOK

Thanks.

I do struggle a bit trying to understand my WS's motivations. In the past she has never been manipulative, unloving, or disrespectful of me. Until she was. It's still very strange for me to cast her "real time" actions in that new potential light.

That said, fool we once, shame on you, fool me twice...I have to protect myself.

OkOkOk - If she does something to break those boundries, I will ask her to leave the house for as long as it takes me to figure out what next steps will be.

I also had a fantastic conversation with an old friend who asked me similar questions about where I was, what my plans were, and so on. He suggested I speak the OM's spouse vs. sending a letter and/or using social media. That way I'd get immediate feedback and be able to close the loop vs. wondering if my message in a bottle actually got to where I wanted it to.

I knew that the OM and his wife had been in therapy, and this morning I asked my WS if she knew if he had been unfaithful to his wife in the past. He had been.

Mind boggling. She really thought she would eventually be treated any differently. Didn't say a word, and I don't think I needed to.

Anyway, I digress. I will inform the OMS next week. I need to get my ducks in a row first and have a plan for potential fallout. I'd love feedback on that from anyone - what happened to you when you did this? How did your WS react?

Also, how did you get in touch? Initial "touch" via FB? A direct call? How did you get the spouse's phone?

Again, thanks all.

...edited....

And no, we don't have kids.

and you are still trying to stay with a woman who cheated on you and is pining away for that guy? Is your self-esteem so damaged that this is the kind of treatment you think you deserve? I recommend divorce to any man in your shoes. Why put yourself through the pain and agony of trying to reconcile when you can break clean and start a new life? You each deserve to find a relationship without this heavy, disgusting baggage.

Do you really believe all they did was "foreplay" when they got together? Really? Maybe if they were 13 years old it would be possible but it is pure denial if you believe her bullshit.

Whatever method you use to inform obs, don't tell ww beforehand.

Probably best to use a method that allows for proof--the 'I love you's,' etc.

Again, sunlight is the best disenfectant. Watch how 'love' turns to 'loath' in the harsh light of reality.

Also, how did you get in touch? Initial "touch" via FB? A direct call? How did you get the spouse's phone?

I looked on LinkedIn and found that the OBS worked at XYZ (a large well-known) company in the branch of a major city (for example, he worked at Proctor & Gamble in Indianapolis). I sent a letter to him via the work address. The letter detailed the EA and their plans to meet and gave my cell #.

I also called the main switchboard number for the Indianapolis branch and asked to speak to him. I called during work hours. I left information to contact me about a personal matter on voicemail. He was on vacation and called me back when he returned to the office.

The letter reached him about a week after I phoned him. It had been redirected to the mail room.

I think OW blocked me from his / their personal phone, but I didn’t have that number anyway, which is why I called the office number.

Harry….

I worry for you.

To go back to my burning-house comparison. It sounds like you are awake in your bed with the smoke-detectors wailing away full-blast, smoke in the air and the flames lighting up the place. You chose to remain under your sheets and plan on phoning 911 in the morning if the fire hasn’t been kind enough to leave before that…

Simply the fact you are posting in the reconciliation forum says a lot because – friend – you two are not in reconciliation. Your wife is in Oh-How-Exciting-it-is-to-be-Caught-Between-Two-Men land. This affair will last until the OM has had enough or until YOU have had enough. Once again to the burning comparison: If this was a fire-fighting forum you would be posting in the “How to rebuild after a fire” rather than the “How do I extinguish the flames” forum.

Based on what you have posted I am willing to place money on this playing out like this if you follow the advice on exposing and telling your WW she can do what she wants, but YOU are out of infidelity:

OM wife has been there, done it and worn out the t-shirt. She will demand OM ends the affair, tell him this time it’s over and all that. OM will deny, dump your wife and do all he can to save the marriage. Your WW undying love and obsession for OM will come to a screaming halt once he tells her it’s over because despite the white horse and all that he wants his marriage. Your WW will go ballistic that you wrecked her wonderful misery. Your WW will see you care, that you want her to join you BUT you are getting out of infidelity. She tells you she misses OM: “That’s a shame. Since I’m not the one you want then why don’t you just remain here and search for a new White Knight. I’m moving on”. Guess what? Once you aren’t the sure thing… she will want you bad.

You have been given the best tools available to make either happen and your decision is that maybe tomorrow you might ask your neighbor (IC) if you should do something about the flames. Maybe negotiate them away.

Take action. Save your marriage and your sanity.

Did you ever inform POSOM's wife?

Did you ever inform POSOM's wife?

I did not. Ultimately decided to keep that powder dry.