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Hi OP.

What if my wife has real psychological disorders? What if she needs medication?

Sorry if I missed it, but determining this ^ should be your #1 requirement for reconciliation.

If she's mentally ill, she needs treatment. Reconciliation without that is going to be hell.

You're a very patient man, Dr., good luck to you.

Just read how you perceive her people pleasing, vs. narcissistic tendencies.

For the record, what I believe you are describing is perfectionism.

I was both a people pleaser and a perfectionist. I very much wanted to be seen as this great mom, overdoing for my kids. That is just a way of covering up the shame of not feeling good enough.

People pleasers or people who are overly selfish are both trying to accomplish the same thing- to fill what they don’t know how to fill themselves.

She will probably uncover in therapy these patterns start with family or origin and it just escalated for some of us as we move forward.

Yep, I needed the best clothes. The best house, to provide my children with elaborate parties and holidays. In hindsight these were all just ways to prove my worth to others. And as I said the more ineffective that was in getting validation of that the harder I would try.

These days, I live in an RV. My clothes are simple. I walk with my head high and couldn’t care less what people think of me because I like who I am. And when you have that you don’t need the other trappings.

I like what owning it now said about feeling the entitlement of doing something for myself for once. This is exactly what I said to myself as I crossed the boundaries I never imagined I would. Everything I was doing including the things that could be seen as narcissistic were for the benefit of others. It pains me that I trapped myself into that sort of prison for so long.

Rising strong by brene brown was a game changer for me in that way. The book traces the things that we do that is rooted in our shame and fears and helps you to see examples of how to come into your own authenticity allowing you to be vulnerable with others.

No one is all good or all bad. Your wife needs to work on her mindset. She has done terribly abusive things to you and to herself. You don’t recognize her but it doesn’t mean you don’t know who she really is. You just had no idea the erosion that was taking place inside her. I personally didn’t recognize it in myself.

And as far as not meeting the requirement of sex on demand - few women would meet that requirement. I did it for a while but it helped him zero percent other than very temporarily. I think anyone can and should say " I would like to see more sex in the marriage that we are building" and I am even 100 percent for it if that doesn’t happen and divorce is the result. But not as an expectation of a relationship that has exploded to help heal someone.

I say I am in support of divorce if they can’t meet you in making a sex life you both can be happy with. Just like anything it has to be built by two people which means both have a say of what that looks like. But in building a new marriage it’s an opportunity again to know what you want, and to gauge compatibility. Almost like you are courting and thinking about getting remarried.

I know I am beating a dead horse by now but this can only happen when both parties are healthy. You will know when your wife is getting there, if she does. I suspect if she continues to work on the fail/succeed cycles as she has been then she will get there.

When my current wife and I went through our process of reforming our relationship after years of dysfunction, I was the one leaning forward on self improvement, teaching/enforcing boundaries, reading and participating on relationship forums (what initially brought me here and another site), and reigning in unhealthy behaviors, to include excess impulse spending, among other things. It required that I do what I had been afraid to do in the past: tell my wife "no".

No, I'm not okay with you adopting another animal. No, I'm not okay with you spending $200 on something frivolous when you owe $3K on a credit card with only minimum payments. No, I'm not okay with pretending our relationship is alright to our family simply because you want to maintain your image. You get the point.

Her initial response to ANYTHING that I said "no" to was to lose her shit. Like, ugly-style lose her shit. And then, 24 hours later, after digesting what I said and why, she came back to the proverbial table ready to contribute again. In other words, her initial emotional reaction was her ego resisting what she knew to be right, but she came around to my side a short time later in nearly every instance.

I see this same behavior pattern in your wife. Her initial reaction is to tell you to go kick rocks while she paints herself as the victim. Then, after she has some time to really process the information, as well as to work herself off of the proverbial emotional ledge, she comes back around.

Recognize this behavior pattern for what it is: a win...each and every time. You don't have to like her initial reaction. Lord knows, it took me almost 18 months of relationship chaos (and some very sharp forum posters) to really recognize and understand the pattern. But ultimately, she is coming around to your want.

When that happens, you are going to have to set aside your sensitive self and quietly celebrate it for what it is: a small step towards her meeting your wants/needs for reconciliation.

That’s fair, but she’s not coming forward and being contrite on the big stuff yet. She’s been coming forward and agreeing with me on the little stuff our entire relationship—there’s no satisfaction in being right if I have to deal with her attitude the day before.

[This message edited by Drstrangelove at 4:52 PM, Thursday, June 16th]

The point I was trying (badly) to make was that there are likely lots of reasons your W doesn't want a D. Fear, familarity, she thinks it erases her mistake. She likes her lifestyle and wants to see her kids today. Plus a few more I can't think of right now. She can't agree to a D because that would make her the bad guy. In that D story the only role she can play is not one she likes to play. Heck, I am not even sure she knows what love means to her.

Authenticity, right? How often has she said one thing, but her actions point to the opposite ?

So why are you are so sure she is telling you the truth now? Think about it.

If I had to guess. . .you want to believe. Nothing wrong with that BTW.

However if she is still lying about minor things why would she not lie about bigger things too. You said it yourself she doesn't even know why she lies.

The scariest lies are ones she has told herself. She has to dig through those and see them as they really are versus what she told herself to feel better about making choices she knew was wrong.

I hear you; and regrettably, I think you’re right. I know HikingOut disagrees, and I see her perspective as well.

What I’m asking though, is what I’m supposed to do about it today? You’re saying to offer her D—I have and she doesn’t want it. I don’t want it either right now. So are you saying I should force D because she might want it? That seems illogical.

I’m very much hoping our relationship doesn’t come to a divorce—because it would mean she either refuses to accept her issues and work on them or she has no desire to spend her life with me. Either way, that’s a sad outcome.

What I’m asking though, is what I’m supposed to do about it today? You’re saying to offer her D—I have and she doesn’t want it. I don’t want it either right now.

Keep putting one foot in front of the other until the situation becomes more clear to either of you. Sucks to be here, but that is the only way forward for both of you.

I hear you; and regrettably, I think you’re right. I know HikingOut disagrees, and I see her perspective as well.

What I’m asking though, is what I’m supposed to do about it today? You’re saying to offer her D—I have and she doesn’t want it. I don’t want it either right now. So are you saying I should force D because she might want it? That seems illogical.

I’m very much hoping our relationship doesn’t come to a divorce—because it would mean she either refuses to accept her issues and work on them or she has no desire to spend her life with me. Either way, that’s a sad outcome.

With all due respect, as long as she knows you are clinging to the skeleton of this murdered marriage, your WW has the Ace cards and the Jokers and you a pair of Deuces.

You have to let go of the skeleton of this marriage before a new relationship can be born, either with your wife or someone new.

Doc,

Your WW sounds like a Tiger Mum. High expectations of her brood, and pushing them to over-achievement. Perhaps she is projecting her need to be perfect on them. She is/was trying to be the 'Perfect Child' for her parents.

I’m very much hoping our relationship doesn’t come to a divorce—because it would mean she either refuses to accept her issues and work on them or she has no desire to spend her life with me.

What if she is not refusing to accept her issues, but she does not have the tools to fix those issues? She may still want to stay with you, but does not have the knowhow to fix herself.

Either way, that’s a sad outcome.

In the context of your post where I pulled this quote from, the answer could be Yes and/or No. Yes at the initial stages, but a D could end up being a happy thing for both of you on the long term, as you both are removed from the toxic dynamics of the M you have now.

What I’m asking though, is what I’m supposed to do about it today?

Detach.

Detach from her and the M (somewhat) and attach to yourself--your own goals, hobbies, future, interests, needs. Find yourself in this world. Marriage is not a destination. And it was never a guarantee. My friend's H is a widower after 20 years of marriage (my fantastic friend died of cancer two years ago). This is certainly not what he wanted, but he is having to find himself all over again. Women frequently go through this when their children leave the nest for good. We spend decades mothering, and then we don't know what to do with ourselves. Or who we are. So what, we should keep our kids at home until they are 50???

You are not your M, and your M is not you. Allow some space in the M to do IC, read books, spend time with yourself, exercise, journal your feelings and thoughts as they change (they WILL keep changing), spend time with your kids without your WW, get in touch with friends, spend free time pursuing things that make you feel joyful, connected, or proud. Focus on being you and take your mind off, "I've gotta fix this M right now." This is what numb&dumb meant when he said, "Be comfortable being uncomfortable." You will WANT to fix the M when you think about it, but you can't. The dysfunction and damage can't be fixed overnight. And it will be SO uncomfortable to sit in limbo. Will this work? Will I be house shopping in a year? Will I be alone? But ignore those thoughts and spend time giving you and your personal self some attention. This is a good use of your time for now. How long? Well, spending time on you shouldn't feel so torturous! Lol. Try to enjoy yourself and your life. Set happy goals. This is the only life you get, you know? Find joy. You deserve it. The marital stuff will unstick itself naturally if you both keep working on yourselves--and it will feel like a positive reconnection of two healthier people, or it will feel like your healthier selves just can't connect. But that is an issue for another day.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 10:31 AM, Thursday, June 16th]

I’ll give an update and try to address some of the recent posts in the process. Yesterday was a long and winding road.

Shortly after my morning post and exchange with HellFire, I received a text from my WW apologizing for getting upset over my decision to tell my sister and father—she told me I had the right to tell anyone I want (verbatim from HF’s post).

I thanked her for the text and laughed that she was clearly reading my thread again, which was ok—since she began posting here we opened up both our threads for the other to see. I had warned her repeatedly that my thread would be rough for her to see, but left it to her.

She told me she had been reading it and I said that was fine. Her getting to a good answer from reading my thread was better than her not getting to a good answer at all.

At work I decided to tell my VP what was going on—him and I are very close and I value his counsel. We spoke only about 30 minutes, but he has a wealth of experience and his feedback was more or less and succinct overview of this thread and my therapy sessions (focus on myself and my children, know that none of my wife’s issues have anything to do with our marriage, give her the space to work through them in IC, etc.)

He did offer one strong POV as he played my situation forward. He told me if she has more serious mental disorders, she should have a psych evaluation immediately—he felt my biggest pitfall would be if she doesn’t get all the help she needs because of her pride and I spin around in circles with her for a big chunk of my life while she remains unhealthy.

The advise resonated with me.

I went to my IC appointment a little later—we focused a bit more on my WW than I intended, but she covered a few points:

1. My trauma healing largely requires time and patience (sound familiar?)

2. My wife needs to grow up and stop wallowing in self-pity, blaming external factors for her unhappiness—and there’s not much I can do until she recognizes that.

3. She didn’t think a psych evaluation for my wife mattered much as ultimately it would come down to my wife’s willingness to address her issues—and the first step is more IC for her.

4. She didn’t seem very on-board with my telling the rest of my family, but once I gave my reasons she changed her position.

5. Sex shouldn’t be as complicated as my wife and I are making it—we need to take the pressure off of it. She also expressed lots of people have sex with a partner when they don’t want to—for the betterment of the marriage—and they do it without making their partner feel horrible, so my wife’s behavior is unacceptable (highlighting Monday night).

6. I should visit this forum less as it may be too consuming for me (she’s probably right and I’m going to likely start posting a bit less—we’ll see how it goes).

Following IC I had to race home to meet my wife and kids to go to a brief event at my son’s school. We bumped into OBS’s best friend, which was mildly awkward, but it didn’t bother either my WW or I much. We then went out to dinner as a family.

All night my wife was *very* distant, staring off into space and giving me fake smiles anytime she caught me looking at her. Back at home I bathed the kids and got them to bed so she could go for a long walk.

Afterward, I asked how she was doing and how her day went. She told me everything was fine, she just was thinking about more of my family knowing, but ultimately felt I should tell them if I wanted.

At this point I wasn't sure what to do—it was obvious to me she was lying about why she was upset, but I wasn’t sure if I should press or just let her sort out her issues on her own and not give her further opportunity to say something stupid. As always, I went with the former like an idiot and asked if she was sure she didn’t want to talk about anything.

She let me know that she read a lot more of this thread and it really rattled her—especially my post yesterday about planning to ask her to have a psych evaluation and me feeling unsafe around her. She spiraled hard and interpreted that as me wanting to have her locked up in a mental institution and keeping the kids from her.

I told her I was very concerned about her mental health—and her response to reading my post is case-in-point a reason why. She is erratic and often saying seemingly crazy things (like that).

She called her psychologist during her spiral and they talked for 30 minutes. As far as I can tell, my WW trashed me the whole call, telling her that I thought she was a sociopath and I was building a case to have her locked up and other such madness. The IC calmed her down and they discussed my post. The IC recommended that she immediately stop reading my thread and posting on SI because it is having far too big of an affect on her (so she won't be posting more in her thread for now). The IC also said a psych evaluation wasn’t necessary because she needs to meet with her more and if she determines there’s an issue she can suggest medication or further therapy.

I thought the IC’s response was perfectly reasonable and my WW is going to see her again this morning, so that resolved the conflict.

Then, shockingly, we largely had a good talk. I spoke mostly about how I felt—that she was constantly attacking me and treating me like an enemy. That the relationship I want—with her or anyone—is a true partnership where it’s us against the world. That I felt stupid and hurt for thinking I had this incredible partnership with her and then she treated me like a piece of garbage.

She seemed genuinely upset for how she kept thinking the worst of me and feeling the need to attack me/defend herself from me. She pointed out that it wasn’t just me—she felt attacked by everyone right now. I asked her to please try harder to let me in rather than fighting me like everyone else—I wanted to help and support her but she wouldn’t let me.

We also discussed her reneging on alcohol use and how it hurt me she agreed to something she didn’t agree with again, making trusting anything she says impossible. She understood and was angry at herself that she keeps doing things like that (people pleasing).

It was an emotional conversation and I’d say it had more positives than negatives, but the various red flags are still there.

Also of interest, she pointed out the other night (Tuesday, which I wrote about), I was acting cold toward her, so she was cold in response. I don’t think I was cold toward her at all, but I was practicing the 180 and it clearly affected her.

I haven’t figured out what method is best in dealing with her. I am still going to focus on me and live my life, but I also recognize she reacts poorly when she feels shutout. It’s a balance. Tonight, for example, I’ll be going to a concert with my mom and sister and she’s home with the kids. And then she’ll be traveling for work for four days next week—so most of this next week will be apart and I’m keeping sex on hold at least until she returns from the trip.

[This message edited by Drstrangelove at 12:20 PM, Thursday, June 16th]

Also of interest, she pointed out the other night (Tuesday, which I wrote about), I was acting cold toward her, so she was cold in response. I don’t think I was cold toward her at all, but I was practicing the 180 and it clearly affected her.

This is exactly why you need to implement and maintain the 180 ASAP. You are doing exactly what you said you wouldn't - giving her the attention she wants for her bad behavior. Even after everything and having the answers to the test by reading your thread, she still won't stop mistreating you. I can't imagine the balls she has to make you feel bad about the decisions you are making for yourself to heal. Every time you open yourself up to her, she takes another shot and it is working. She is wearing you down. This is not what a loving and remorseful partner does so for your own safety, you must DETACH. Stop talking to her except for kid logistics. Let her have her tantrums.

This is exactly why you need to implement and maintain the 180 ASAP. You are doing exactly what you said you wouldn't - giving her the attention she wants for her bad behavior. Even after everything and having the answers to the test by reading your thread, she still won't stop mistreating you. I can't imagine the balls she has to make you feel bad about the decisions you are making for yourself to heal. Every time you open yourself up to her, she takes another shot and it is working. She is wearing you down. This is not what a loving and remorseful partner does so for your own safety, you must DETACH. Stop talking to her except for kid logistics. Let her have her tantrums.

I’ve been giving this a lot of thought. I can do that—and I know she’ll reciprocate in kind—and I know it will affect her way more and way worse than me. I just need to figure out a balance to where it can’t be interpreted as cold by her. I don’t want her to think I’m trying to be hurtful to her and escalate negativity in the house with the kids.

I am still planning to stop digging into how she feels and I cut off the conversations anytime she attacks me and starts talking about her issues.

I just need to figure out a balance to where it can’t be interpreted as cold by her. I don’t want her to think I’m trying to be hurtful to her and escalate negativity in the house with the kids.

She can interpret it any way she wants. Seriously. You cannot expect reasonable behavior from an absolutely unreasonable person. You don't do the 180 to change her, you do it to protect you. So what she thinks of it is not your concern. You can be all business and reasonably friendly when the kids are around but stop supporting her, stop listening to her crazy hurtful rants and stop giving her all the control. Even in considering the 180, you are giving her the control because you aren't sure how to act because of how SHE will react or feel. That is on her, not you. You can control you and you can enforce boundaries for you. How she reacts and feels is ENTIRELY on her.

What I’m asking though, is what I’m supposed to do about it today?

People are answering you, and you're not taking the advice. What are you getting from asking? What are you getting from rejecting the advice? (I do not mean to imply that rejecting advice is wrong. I'm suggesting you look into an anomaly that is pretty apparent, at least to me.)

I don’t think I was cold toward her at all, but I was practicing the 180

You think the 180 is warm? How can you think you weren't cold when you were practicing the 180? This does not compute.

About your Cs recommending staying away from SI, I suggest asking them to read here before making any recommendation. We offer peer counseling. They offer individual or very small group counseling. They're 2 different things, and they meet 2 different needs.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 3:29 PM, Thursday, June 16th]

Dr, the 180 isn’t intended to change your WW into a better candidate for R. Rather, it is intended to allow you to emotionally detach from your present situation so that you can rationally evaluate and decide on the best path for you going forward.

People are answering you, and you're not taking the advice. What are you getting from asking? What are you getting from rejecting the advice? (I do not mean to imply that rejecting advice is wrong. I'm suggesting you look into an anomaly that is pretty apparent, at least to me.)

The community has been clear on advice—in what you quoted, I was specifically asking Numb&Dumb to explain his advice on offering my wife D now.

You think the 180 is warm? How can you think you weren't cold when you were practicing the 180? This does not compute.

I don’t interpret as cold or warm. Staying polite, but not engaging or getting caught in her spirals. I’m probably just not explaining myself here well.

I did not engage with her on Tuesday beyond the minimum. But I was not mean or cold either. That’s how I plan to continue acting.

She (wrongly) took my behavior as cold and acted very coldly toward me—she can certainly do that, but I suspect the result will be me looking to S as I have no intention of tolerating a negative environment for the children.

Dr, the 180 isn’t intended to change your WW into a better candidate for R. Rather, it is intended to allow you to emotionally detach from your present situation so that you can rationally evaluate and decide on the best path for you going forward.

Yea, and I’m on board with that.

**

And as an update—we had an event at my son’s school this morning and we went together to support him. We had run-ins with various people my WW new from the PTA, including her friend from the committee she was on with AP. It was awkward for me.

During the conversation with her, I noticed my wife not wearing her wedding ring. It’s the first time I noticed her not wearing it post-DDay and it coincides with us being in a very social setting with affair-adjacent people—she claims it was a slip of mind in her rush this morning and I obviously think she is full of shit. (Note: she stopped wearing it on Dec. 17, to the event AP first kissed her; she began wearing it again every day after DDay.)

To be fair, I stopped wearing my ring post-DDay. It’s not that I care if she wears it, but her not wearing it today sends a clear signal. The message was received.

[This message edited by Drstrangelove at 4:40 PM, Thursday, June 16th]

The fact that she is on this site..that she is reading your posts..that she has received specific advice in her thread..and,yet, when you are what she perceives to be "cold", she decides her response should also be cold..says a lot. A whole lot.

She SHOULD be warm,understanding, empathetic,and loving. Even if you are distant,or having a bad day. Instead,she decides your pain deserves coldness.

Yes. It says a lot. You need to listen.

[This message edited by HellFire at 5:20 PM, Thursday, June 16th]

You mentioned that she basically repeated what I said about you deserving support from your family. And she admitted she had read your thread.

Unfortunately, that is a huge downside of having your WS here. They see what they should be doing,so they try to say the right things. Sometimes they are genuine. Sometimes they're not.

The fact that she is on this site..that she is reading your posts..that she has received specific advice in her thread..and,yet, when you are what she perceives to be "cold", she decides her response should also be cold..says a lot. A whole lot.

She SHOULD be warm,understanding, empathetic,and loving. Even if you are distant,or having a bad day. Instead,she decides your pain deserves coldness.

Yes. It says a lot. You need to listen.

Exactly correct. She is a child.

During the conversation with her, I noticed my wife not wearing her wedding ring. It’s the first time I noticed her not wearing it post-DDay and it coincides with us being in a very social setting with affair-adjacent people—she claims it was a slip of mind in her rush this morning and I obviously think she is full of shit. (Note: she stopped wearing it on Dec. 17, to the event AP first kissed her; she began wearing it again every day after DDay.)

This is some passive-aggressive bullshit, right here. It's just another way for her to express her resentments and anger toward you. Same deal with becoming cold toward you when she perceives that her lovebombing isn't working (when you're trying to detach with the 180).

And that right there...that's the "real" her. That's her authentic self, currently. I've never known anyone with this kind of entrenched passive-aggressive victim behavior to be able to recognize it and grow out of it. I don't know why, but this particular mental pattern is extremely hard to fix. It's going to take years and years for her to be able to identify what she's doing and stop doing it, IMO.

Personally, I don't keep passive-aggressive people close to me in my life. It's dishonest, deceptive, destructive behavior. But it allows them to keep thinking they are the real victims, and that everything they do to purposefully hurt others is justified because "they hurt me first," or it's forgivable because they "didn't mean to do it."