SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Josie,

"This has gone on long enough, Squid. I wonder if you might just call her up and tell her you still love her and you forgive her and you want to start over and just go from there. I realize that opens you up to a mountain of hurt but it also puts an end to this Limbo and the risk might be worth it. It'll either work out or it won't but i'll end this nightmare one way or the other."

I've tried this. Many times. But she keeps waffling between wanting to maybe, kinda R and just going our separate ways. Obviously, her ability to support herself seems to weigh heavier in her mind than with trying to give our marriage another shot.

As SuperDaddy said, she doesn't really get my side of the story. In fact, she calls me controlling and trying to change her because I try so hard to get her to understand my side. But she always goes back to her pain from before alluding to the problems we had in our marriage and her subsequent checking out.

I'm torn between the narrative of her letter that I WANT to hear and the TRUE narrative which others here have helped distill. An that's of a person who is trying to find a way to not get kicked out of the house, but at the same time doesn't really want a marriage.

First of all, I'm not exactly sure why I've taken a special interest in you but I have and so you can view me as a guardian angel or a pesky fly buzzing about your head. I'm fine with either scenario, I've got broad shoulders, and if it helps you, then it's even more fine.

Anyway, if you have approached her and offered a clean start and she hasn't fallen to her knees sobbing in gratitude, it's time to call it quits. Because anything less than that from her leaves her with all the power and you with all the pain. You've already had enough pain for 20 lifetimes so why volunteer to take on more?

And just like me, you are a controlling person. It generally stems from our childhoods and is our way of making our situations tolerable. It doesn't have to be a traumatic or miserable childhood to cause this, just one where the child doesn't get much say in anything. My Dad was military and he made all the rules and we followed them, never daring to say anything about anything. So we learned to take control where we could. And it spills over into our adult lives and even when we keep trying to get our point across and have another person understand what we're trying to say is a controlling action. We're trying to control what they think. We're trying to control their opinion of us. We're trying to control how they view us or the situation we're in.

It's exhausting to go through life trying to keep everyone under control. It's especially exhausting because part of the reason we do it is to take the focus off ourselves and not deal with our own faults. Me watch my cholesterol? But I have to make sure my son doesn't take his college classes in the afternoons. Or I have to make sure that when my daughter goes to see her boss, she knows to tell him about my appendicitis and not punish her for being late.

So Squid, the bottom line is, your reason for hanging on for so long is you've lost control of the situation and that's an unbearable scenario for you. Believe me, I get it. Hell, I know exactly what it is because I lived it and I still do to a certain extent. But really and truly, please trust me, the best thing you can do for yourself is: Just let it go.

It's hard, I know. But do it.

[This message edited by josiep at 7:40 AM, September 16th (Saturday)]

Squid:

I tend to think in imagery and stories - hopefully these make sense to you.

Even earlier on, she didn't talk about D. It was usually me mentioning it. Only because she never wanted to really R. So in my mind, what else was there? Why would/should I settle for a M that is nothing less than fully committed to by both partners?

I struggled hugely with this and all the related questions for a very very long time. After all Princess YogaPants had Senor MoneyBags all in her hip pocket for a very long time so why didn't she pull the trigger, file for divorce and move in with the guy. She was telling all her friends that was what was going to happen - but it didn't and after about 2 years it still hasn't.

One part of the narrative could indeed be like others have suggested here that she didn't want to "be the bad guy" and that may indeed be the case. A dear friend of mine on another forum (more than) once advised me to not to try to "understand crazy".

In some ways it seemed to me like we were two cats both staring at the same thing that neither of us wanted but that we didn't want the other to have - it certainly felt like that about the bank accounts. She did move first on that and grabbed what she felt was "her part" of the money eventually.

The other image / story is the parable of the donkey who dies of starvation between two bales of hay unable to decide which one it wants first.

So - you may be dealing with a cat, or an ass. And you'll probably never know.

Squid, it's hard to watch you suffer so badly.

In reading her letter, she is trying to compare her pain to yours. It's not possible.

You've been given, by many, a list of what you need from her.

I'm sure you have even shared that with her. If she persists in trying to be the victim, just keep showing her the list.

I won't tell you to R or D, that's ultimately your decision.

Her statements about mistakes are total bullshit. You and she knows that a mistake is 2+2=5. It isn't continually making conscious decisions to do something that is knowingly wrong.

I'm pulling for you, but every time she wants to talk, show her your demands. If she can't do it, show her the door.

[This message edited by Wool94 at 8:35 AM, September 16th (Saturday)]

Squid, did your WW ever read "How to Help Your Spouse Heal From Your Affair" by Linda J. MacDonald? If she did it sure never influenced her. If she didn't was it because she didn't know about it or refused to read it? Just curious.

steadychevy,

Squid, did your WW ever read "How to Help Your Spouse Heal From Your Affair" by Linda J. MacDonald? If she did it sure never influenced her. If she didn't was it because she didn't know about it or refused to read it? Just curious.

I think she read it. I "loaned" it to her on Kindle. She complained early on that it made her feel bad about herself. So she may not have completed it. I know the part about apologizing to her kids and other loved ones about the affair was something she did not want to do. Yeah, not very remorseful.

Josie,

I have no problem with you being my guardian angel.

So Squid, the bottom line is, your reason for hanging on for so long is you've lost control of the situation and that's an unbearable scenario for you. Believe me, I get it. Hell, I know exactly what it is because I lived it and I still do to a certain extent. But really and truly, please trust me, the best thing you can do for yourself is: Just let it go.

It's hard, I know. But do it.

I think I'm there. I really think I'm ready.

Wool,

I'm pulling for you, but every time she wants to talk, show her your demands. If she can't do it, show her the door.

She has continually told me that she "can't give me what I need". Basically can't give what will make me happy. And, more importantly, doesn't feel like she has to be the one that must change in order for our M to work. Still places all blame on me. Whatever.

Yeah, I'm ready. Like I've said before, if there's any chance of R for us, it will have to be after D.

Bowtie,

So - you may be dealing with a cat, or an ass. And you'll probably never know.

Ass, for sure.

I know this has been referred to a lot by I will refer to it again:

I know you don't believe that our pain is the same at all because of the mistake

Your pain is not the same

It was not a mistake It was a decision

Josie,

I have no problem with you being my guardian angel.

So Squid, the bottom line is, your reason for hanging on for so long is you've lost control of the situation and that's an unbearable scenario for you. Believe me, I get it. Hell, I know exactly what it is because I lived it and I still do to a certain extent. But really and truly, please trust me, the best thing you can do for yourself is: Just let it go.

It's hard, I know. But do it.

I think I'm there. I really think I'm ready.

On May 3, my XWH walked out the door and I didn't hesitate for 5 minutes but went and got an attorney immediately and filed as quickly as I could. In my naive little mind, I was pushing him to go to the floozy and thought the sooner he went there, the sooner he'd realize what a mistake he'd made and the sooner he'd come back. You see, in my own way, I was still trying to control him. "If I do this, he'll do that."

He left June 15. It's been 3 months and even though I have low moments, I've begun to come alive again. As a total codependent controlling person, I didn't realize how much I was living under the cloud that was him. I've made so many friends in the last 3 months, I can't believe it. I used to be outgoing and always had lots of friends but over the last 10 yrs. or so, I'd become very isolated from the world.

I think the rosy glow is wearing off his new life and at first, I was like, "Oh, good." But the fact is, I have no interest or desire in having him come back. I'm enjoying the freedom of not enduring his pursed lips and the way he used to sigh whenever something happened that he didn't like. My grandkids love coming here now cuz they can relax and have fun. It's nicer without him. I eat whatever time I want to. I go out at nite if I want to. And the best part of all, the toilet seat stays down. :)

Anyway, I really want this for you, too. File for divorce and move on. I think you're a lot like me in some ways and I think you'll be glad you did it. You deserve to have someone who cherishes you, who worships the ground you walk on. Someone who would never, ever hurt you.

You'll never be safe with her because even if you guys stay together, you'll never be able to trust her and will always be on edge and she'll always have the upper hand. Believe me, I know cuz my first time at this rodeo I was about your age and 34 yrs. later, I was struck by lightning.

I'll even come over there and go to court with you and then host a great party for you.

Josie,

you give great advice and I think Squid is very fortunate to find a guardian angel!

She has continually told me that she "can't give me what I need". Basically can't give what will make me happy. And, more importantly, doesn't feel like she has to be the one that must change in order for our M to work. Still places all blame on me. Whatever.

Yeah, I'm ready. Like I've said before, if there's any chance of R for us, it will have to be after D.

Then tell her in no uncertain terms that you take zero responsibility for her affair in any way, and her unwillingness to do so makes her unsuitable as a wife, so you have no other choice but to D...and then do so, quickly.

Do not let her weasel more time and college money from you... make her take care of her own life for once. She may not be in a good place financially, but that's not your concern, its just a consequence of her own actions, stop being her savior.

Yeah, I'm ready. Like I've said before, if there's any chance of R for us, it will have to be after D.

When is your appt with your attorney to file?

Squid, I agree with Ohfor. This is one of the worst, most selfish letters I have ever read on this site. Not only is it all about her, she never even mentions the A! If I had seen this letter without any context, I would have never guessed she was a WS. Maybe even a BS. That's how little she is owning her A.

The sad truth is she is openly telling you in this letter that this is the best that you will ever get from her. She says she's not willing to change. She's not even sure if she can or will commit to you. She will always have one foot out the door and will scrutinize your every move to justify it. That's not a marriage. That's living in emotional purgatory indefinitely.

I'm glad that this letter did one important thing for you - answer once and for all if R can happen right now. Obviously, it can't and so you're taking the correct steps to get out. Maybe she will come around after D but don't wait for her. D isn't going to magically her capable of R. You might get a slightly better letter years later but it will mostly be an extended part of her pity party section about the woes of divorced dating and how you're such a meanie for wanting better than someone who is at best a luke warm cheater.

It's just so confusing. Now that she's back home, she's being super polite. Trying to stay out of my way, to give me space I presume. It's so tempting to believe that she's trying to be remorseful.

Being polite and staying out of your way does not a wife make, nor marriage.

She's putting on a good act because she knows she can make you twist in the wind.

She's being polite? Nah, that's her way of keeping you at arm's length so she doesn't have to engage in any difficult conversations.

You're her comfortable person but she has no intention of ever being your wife again. All this "I need space" and "I need time to think" and "I don't know what I want" are a bunch of gibberish. No one, but no one, needs to think about whether they love someone. And the bottom line is, she's incapable of loving anyone right now anyway.

And while I have no doubt that you do love her on some level, your biggest problems are the loss of control and the blow to your pride. You've got righteous anger. How dare they do this to us??? How dare they????

You know what you need to do. I know its hard. Believe me, I looked at the man I'd been with for 49 years and never in a million years thought we'd get divorced. But he changed; he got a dose of dopamine and fell right back into his alcoholic personna and I could see it in his eyes -- he was gone. And it had nothing to do with me, nothing at all. I suspect it's the same scenario with you. But because it had nothing to do with me, that also means there's nothing I can do to change it or to fix it.

I'm so sorry you're facing this.

I'm not super familiar with your entire experience. This is what I see for sure.

Stop trying to impose reality and "normal" on her. She clearly is impaired emotionally and you are trying to make sense out of the nonsensical.

Does she need help? Clearly. Best kept secret in the world, some people who need help don't want any and they are utterly content to live as they are in a hell of their own making except they will tell anyone who will listen how it was YOU who messed up their life.

Stop trying to save her. There is NO magic way to spin words to the point that she'll look at you and go OMG you're right.

You have two choices at this point (and yes, you actually have power in this situation). You can put your rose colored glasses back on and go back to thinking she is who she said she was. (The downside of this option is unfortunately you can not unsee what you have seen, but you are free to try). Option two is to smash those glasses and get serious about loving yourself back to or for the first time to healthy.

It's really that simple.

You are all so awesome. I love this site so much.

Josie,

As a total codependent controlling person, I didn't realize how much I was living under the cloud that was him. I've made so many friends in the last 3 months, I can't believe it. I used to be outgoing and always had lots of friends but over the last 10 yrs. or so, I'd become very isolated from the world.

I don't think I was always this way. I know that when she pretty much announced that she checked out (ILYBINILWY speech) I did what ever I could to try and get her to return to the marriage. Hence, me thinking if I do this, she'll do that. I wasn't like that before. Even after, I never told her not to go back to school or not to work or never see her friends. That's probably where she got her impression that I was controlling. But as a result, I isolated myself from my circle of friends.

I really need to open a word document and write out my whole story because I can't do this little white box very well. But if you read it, you'd realize why I know what I know and why I relate to you so much.

I knew XWH was cheating on me back in January. I confronted, he denied, swore he loved me, etc. I knew better but I went along with it and did the "pick me" dance and we were getting along great. We went to the hot tub together every night, we cooked together, we were planning our dream trip to Europe, we were doing some remodeling here and even bought some new furniture. But during all that seemingly wonderful relationship, he was holding me at arm's length, just like your WW. He was doing that because he was already lost to me and I didn't realize it (how I wish I'd had S.I. back then!) and he was stringing me along. Me, the woman who'd supported him through all his rotten mistakes for 49 years, who'd covered up for him, who'd fixed everything every single damned time and who took total and complete care of his elderly parents while he continued to fish and have his life.

I'm not saying he had to have romantic love for me for the rest of his life but I never in a million years thought he could possibly turn on me with the disrespect and dishonesty; I believed I had at least earned that.

So do not be fooled by her. DO NOT BE FOOLED BY HER.

Once they get into this mode, whatever label anyone wants to put on it, they are lost to us. They are no longer normal people.

Please, Squid, file for D and get it over with and move on with your life. You deserve so much better and it's just killing me to see such a fine man with so much character and courage being toyed with by someone who has gone to the dark side.

I'm not even sure it's their fault, I'm still debating that one in my mind. But I do now know and accept that I will lose my life (not as in death but as in really living) if I keep trying to fix him. You are in the same exact situation I was.

I'm going to Atlantic City this weekend. Wanna come?

Squid, did your WW ever read "How to Help Your Spouse Heal From Your Affair" by Linda J. MacDonald? ...

Squid's response: I think she read it. I "loaned" it to her on Kindle. ... Yeah, not very remorseful.

I often wonder if unremorseful Waywards use info in that book as ammunition for the in ultimate gas lighting or hoovering? Especially for professional blame shifters who can't own their own shit! Just a thought...

My story is similar to Josie's. Long marriage (48 years), spouse in the deepest fog imaginable. You didn't break this and you can't fix it. Your WS 's letter is remarkably similar to the BS my XWS tried to feed me in a desperate attempt to keep me in the box he created for me years ago. No thanks. His relationship with the OW crumbled faster than a stale cookie after I gave him his "freedom." Too bad so sad. All I can tell you is she will play you like a violin as long as you let her. I know you love her. But it's hard for all of us BS to accept that the people we thought they were, are GONE. It sounds like you are on the cusp of seeing this. When you do, you will take the action you need to. Wishing you strength and peace.

I know this crap is hard Squid. The decision to D or R is a tough decision. First off you have to have a WS willing to admit what they did and seek help for it. Unfortunately you have an unremorseful wife who wants to blame everything and everyone but herself. I tried for 3yrs to R with an unremorseful spouse. It doesn't work.

It's just so confusing. Now that she's back home, she's being super polite. Trying to stay out of my way, to give me space I presume. It's so tempting to believe that she's trying to be remorseful.

This is not remorse. This is rug sweeping. Until she can come to you with real remorse the most you will ever get is regret she got caught, blame shifting,