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BH here and I have to say I am impressed with the self improvements you have made since your first posting. You and your BH are much like my WW and myself. I kicked her out and we were separated for nearly a year, and like you she never gave up. I took her to the brink of divorce but called it off when she showed me she was really trying. We are back together but it is still a struggle. I am full of anger and resentment. I do not abuse or belittle her, but neither do I tell her I love her...because at this stage I don't feel any kind of husbandly love for her. But I hold out hope that I can love her again someday.

Our reconciliation has stalled because I have not done the work on myself to heal and she needs to do a lot more work on herself. I have begun IC and I am going to demand she dig deeper into her "whys".

All I can tell you is to keep digging deeper into yourself and let your BH see it. Even if he does file for D, it is not over until it is over. You can still keep fighting for him throughout the process. Don't stop fighting for him, not one day.

LivingWithPain - I'm afraid how far I've come is more a testament to how far I had to go than where I am, but I appreciate the acknowledgement of progress. It's nice to hear from someone that I'm moving in the right direction, since BH isn't interested in giving "constructive feedback" at the moment.

Hope is a powerful thing - it can move mountains. If both you and your WW have hope, and you both continue working toward the future you want, I have faith you'll get there. Committed, wholehearted people can accomplish incredible things.

It does sound like IC could help with the resentment and anger you're feeling. I know mine has been incredibly productive in forcing me to examine and familiarize myself with my feelings, as well as where they come from. I'm really remedial in my emotional education, I'm afraid, but while up until now I dealt with that by avoiding them, now I'm enrolled in a figurative "emotions 101" thanks to my IC, and it's been eye-opening.

I would also recommend it for your WW, to help her identify her "why" - which I agree is critical. Remorse alone doesn't make her safe.

Best of luck to you both! I'm sending positive thoughts your way.

I wish you the very best CSCE.

First and foremost you must really, really, really, really, really want this.

Not to protect yourself from the potential hurt arising from your efforts but to protect your husband from the devastation of him realising that deep down you actually don't want this enough to willingly embrace that hurt.

I don't know that this will help any, but I say it in all sincerity: I think most BS would pay a lifetime of treasure to have a wayward spouse who tries as hard as you are trying.

SorrowfulMoon - I've never wanted anything more. I don't know what else to say...I'll be frank - I'm struggling. This is really hard, and I don't claim to "get it". The only thing I can say is that I'm trying to. Honestly, entirely, and earnestly. And I'll keep trying, no matter what.

CuckNo - This makes me so sad.

I have to admit, I get extremely angry when I see/hear of WS's who don't try. I stay out of the other forums sometimes, it upsets me so much. The amount of grace it takes to be a BS and, despite everything, be able to extend a hand and say "let's work on this" is astounding. The idea that a person, when presented with such a gift, would be so self-indulgent as to squander it by not giving it 100% makes me ill.

It's distracting and judgmental of me, but I just don't understand. It's not even about R. It's not about loving the other person, either - it's about realizing you hurt another human being terribly. How can you not respond to the need to help, on just a basic human level??

It's so cowardly. It's like drunk driving and running someone over. You did an awful, reckless, selfish thing. Something you knew had serious risks, and serious consequences, and you did it anyway. But now, when faced with those consequences, and the pain you caused - how can you then hit-and-run?

I just don't get it. Every BS deserves a WS that genuinely tries to help them heal. I did so many horrible things. I lied over and over again. I looked him in the eyes and I told him he had nothing to worry about. I stole countless hours of our time and the things that were supposed to be just ours, and I gave them to someone else. I abandoned him. I used his faith in me against him.

Nothing I do will ever "fix it", "make it right" or "atone" for any of that. I know that without a shadow of a doubt. But by the hand of God, even knowing that it will never be enough, I will try. Because it's the right thing to do. I can't go back and undo the disgusting choices I made, but I can choose to make better choices in the future. It doesn't erase the past, but that doesn't matter. Doing the right thing isn't about guilt, or shame, or fear. It isn't about "fixing" the past. It's about now. In this moment, who do you want to be? Will this choice reflect that, or not? Will you call the ambulance, or hit-and-run?

I won't hit-and-run.

Hi CSCE

I have only ever read that one page of your thread.  I have followed your BH thread but have not been a prolific poster there. I identified too strongly with him and was concerned that any post I made would project too strongly and seem to be trying to engineer some sort of  preferred outcome.

I still have not read here, so am not sure where things stand between you and BH.

I have however, read a number of your posts on other's threads.   In each I see incredible understanding, honest concern and wise council.

I would like to ask that,  regardless of how things work out between you and BH, you stick around SI and remain active, giving that advice to those poor new souls who find themselves in this awful hell that we have navigated through.

I have a sense that it will also play a part in your becoming that person that you have started working on.

Ohforanewme - Thank you - your words mean a lot. I'm humbled that you feel that way about my posts, and I appreciate that you feel my voice is valuable here. I hope the OP's of the threads I chime in on get something from my responses.

No matter which way things go, I think I'll stick around, especially since it doesn't seem like divorced WS's have much of a presence, and if BH wanted to try R, I know I'd need help navigating that anyway.

Again, thank you. And I agree about the mutual benefit - providing help to others is one of the ways I learn best. Taking those thoughts and turning them inward is where I need to improve.

I do believe you CSCE. You are continuing to do the right thing and hopefully that will give you inner strength.

I fully re-iterate CuckNo's observation and your excellent and eloquent response. This is something I truly hope your husband will come to realise through his hurt.

Your affair was probably at the high end of the betrayal scale as it were. However, your level of remorse is now way off the scale as far as I am concerned, albeit with the odd slip up, which is probably inevitable even in the best intention-ed Wayward.

It is always a mystery to BS's how the one they love can live with them day to day and yet have another separate life with someone else at the same time, putting more into that relationship than they do to their actual marriage.

To me, however, what is far worse than the initial affair is the Wayward who fails to make the effort to show remorse or even worse continues in infidelity after DD and sometimes deliberately hurts the BS by flaunting it. In my mind an affair is forgivable that is not.

Your husband may not show it but I would be verysurprised if he failed to recognise and be grateful that you are not a hit-and-run driver.

I can only speak for myself but it would lift my spirits greatly if I truly believed my spouse, by constant endeavor, showed me that they did after all really love and respect me. It may be that he is just not wired to get over this and be your partner again. However, he will be a much less damaged person than if you were not showing the level of your commitment to him as suggested by WalikinOnEggshellz. That you made every effort to help him heal is something that you can be very proud of even if it does not turn out the way you hope.

Yes, so be that ambulance and keep up the good work!

And well said ohforanewme, I totally agree. Although CSCE's quality of writing does show many of us up

p.s.

I think you are the Jane Austen of SI, CSCE

CSCE, please don’t take this the wrong way, but I’m not sure exactly what you’ve done for your BH that the other BHs commenting on your thread find so remarkable. This is not to shame you or question their judgment, but rather to ask what they are seeing that I am not.

Sure, it seems like you understand the damage your betrayal has done (and relatively quickly), and perhaps that is much more than other ever got so that explains the effusive praise. However, I see that as a very small part in making things right with him.

Again, I’m not trying to put you down, but rather temper your expectations with regard to your BH who may be viewing your progress quite differently. Were I in his shoes, I can’t say I’d be as excited about your progress as some here seem to be.

Please keep up the good work, but realize there is much, much more to do.

While you are doing the right thing by not being a hit and run driver don't lose focus that from your BH's perspective you were still the driver of the car that has ruined his life and broken him. You chose to drive dangerously and almost killed him.

I realise that you can't change any of the choices you made to hurt him. To have a year long affair. To have the OM in your house, the daily photos to your AP so he could see you first, The TT, the deleting of your messages. You chose to lie to and humiliate to your BH's every day. You need to realise that you made these choices and your BH is suffering the consequences.

Your good work now does not in any way negate the damage you have done to your BH. Please don't hold it up as a shield of self righteousness against him. You make comments about how he isn't receptive to give you praise for the work you have been doing on yourself. He shouldn't have to. He is your victim. He should not have to congratulate you for not hurting him anymore, for not hurting anyone else.

I recognize some of your philosophical rhetoric regarding being a wayward and your observations about some other waywards.... Lessons learned the hard way. Life's regrets. I haven't been in a good place lately. I've been struggling with some melancholy lately. So, haven't been as active as I have been in the past. Not too sure if I am in a place where my pontification will be all that wise or helpful. Hoping the best for you and your betrayed spouse. What ever your husbands decision, it can work out to be good for both of you. Work to stay hopeful and positive.

SorrowfulMoon - Thank you. I appreciate everything you've said. It's been a long time since I've read Austen - once I finish my lengthy reading list of "betterment" material I really should get back into reading. It was foundational for me growing up, but I haven't read any classic literature since college.

Sanibelredfish - I can honestly say that I have no expectations from BH, so tempering them isn't necessary. That being said, I do appreciate the words of caution against complacency. I hope it comes across that I do not have all of the answers - I don't claim to. And I recognize that I have a long way to go. If I'm being candid, I am very frightened about the fact that I don't have any idea what I am doing. I realize that my judgement is flawed, I cope by lying to myself, and I have very little sense of who I am without the cocoon of defense mechanisms that I've built up over the years. As such, I flounder a lot. I am often paralyzed by self-doubt. I don't trust myself or my own thinking a lot of the time. I don't know how to recognize authenticity within myself, let alone how to live it. I still cry whenever someone says something compassionate and kind.

That is to say: I'm a mess. I've moved an inch on a mile-long track, and I know it. I'm going to keep on, because I fully recognize that stopping isn't an option, but I'm not planning any victory laps.

All of that being said, I'd be lying if I didn't find your words to be somewhat discouraging, although you are certainly entitled to them. I don't know if you have read my whole thread, but based on your experience and what you know, is there anything I could be doing that I'm not? Any places you see where my wayward thinking needs to be checked? Anything I should be working toward that I'm neglecting? As I have mentioned before, I am doing everything I can think of, but I recognize that there is likely more I could do, and I would welcome any feedback that helps me do more/better.

HardyRose - Your point is well taken. You're absolutely right - doing the right thing now doesn't erase the things I've done, and I take that very seriously. I hope I did not come off as dismissive - the truth is that I know I will carry that knowledge and regret with me every day of my life, and so I don't spend much time talking about it because it's a given. But you wouldn't know that, and might understandably not believe me even as I say it. I understand why you feel the need to call it out.

What I've come to realize is that I can't behave a certain way in an attempt to make it up to him. There's no way to "make it up", and if that were my motivation, not only would it be self-preserving in the sense of being an attempt to minimize consequences, but it would be insulting to him because it would presume that the pain was minimal enough that it could be offset. Instead, I am going to do everything I can to cause no more hurt, and to support/encourage healing. I'm going to do this not to try and take the weight off my shoulders, but because it is the right thing to do when someone is suffering. The weight is mine to bear. I accept that. Unfortunately, I've also thrust it upon BH, and I can't take it away - all I can do is try to help him carry it.

I fully apologize if anything I've said has come off as self-righteous. I don't expect BH to "congratulate" me for what I'm doing, and I don't expect any kind of medal for being a recovering toxic personality - I only meant that he hasn't been giving me much feedback of any sort lately, and so I can't use him as an indicator of if I'm moving in the right direction. I don't trust my own barometer on that topic either, since I am very aware that there is still a lot of wayward thinking in my head. So, I have to rely on the kind people here to guide me, and I very much appreciate when they take the time to.

It would be easier to make sure I'm meeting his expectations and being as safe as possible if he gave me more to go on. As it is, I'm playing darts in the dark. But it's his prerogative not to, and I do understand that. I don't resent him for not feeling able/willing/interested/safe enough to. I hope one day he is comfortable doing so, but until then I will continue to do my best, and ask the BS's here for help. I know right now he needs to focus on his healing, and likely doesn't have the energy to assist me in this.

QuietDan - I'm sorry you've been having a hard time, and I appreciate that despite that, you came to wish BH and myself well. I hope you feel better. Take care.

CSCE, I’m sorry you found my post discouraging, it was not intended to be. I’m not a very big rah-rah type guy so please consider it from that perspective.

I am familiar with most (all?) of your thread and that was the basis of my comment. Off and on throughout the thread I perceive a defeatist attitude from you as well as a hesitance to be vulnerable with your BH. I think others have as well, particularly fWW’s counciling you to not worry about looking foolish in trying to save your M.

I worry that your tendency to go there (defeatist, not vulnerable), coupled with very positive feedback from some BH, could lead you to be complacent or make you believe you’ve done enough and your BH is just being unreasonable.

Given your behavior up until very recently, your BH’s behavior and reluctance to trust you/ engage with you is completely understandable, at least from my perspective. You’d have to demonstrate your recent good behavior for a very long time to begin to change that perception.

CSCE:

I think I can sympathize with one aspect of what you're trying to deal with. Specifically, I'm referring to a lack of outward manifestations / demonstrations of my emotions. This may relate in some way to being on antidepressants for the past 5 years, or just that I'm a much different person now than I was then (I'm an alcoholic who gave up drinking ~5 years ago and back then, I was an emotional train-wreck riding the rollercoaster through manic highs and deep depression).

In any event, I'm an attorney who thinks (and writes) in a robotic manner and I have, for lack of a better term, a very "flat affect". This results in people thinking I'm not feeling emotions, that I'm cold or don't care about certain things, etc. It's very beneficial in a crisis situation (like on d-day and professionally and in my former time as a firefighter) but otherwise can be damaging in a relationship.

So anyway, I think that the advice you're getting to take all drastic measures is related to concerns about how logically and clinically you express yourself and a resulting lack of apparent emotion... not sure how this manifests in your actual real-world life, but just keep this in mind. If I'm reading those posts the right way, it seems like they're suggesting that you really need to break down to him in a way that outwardly shows just how deeply you feel what you're expressing here.

I'm about the worst person to suggest HOW to go about doing so, because I haven't figured out how to do this myself. Just pointing out that I have similar issues and I'm sensing some of that here in your case.

How much of your thinking is your BH aware of? You've said he doesn't read here, but how does he know where your head and heart are? Even if he sits there and reacts in no way, both of you might benefit from you letting him see the good and bad we do.

As expected, yesterday was really difficult. Honestly, it's been a tough handful of days.

BH said that he is going to take the advice of his IC and not make any decisions for 6 months instead of 3. But, he also said that if she hadn't advised him to wait, that he would have made a decision by now and it would have been for D. He said that he sees the work I'm doing, and that there's nothing else I can do. He said he knows that if there were anything, I would do it. He said his IC told him she thinks I'm "fixable".

He's concerned I'm "doing the right things for the wrong reasons", although he acknowledges that I wouldn't stop the work on myself if D was the outcome. It makes sense why he would be concerned about that, considering I've made my stance on R/D very clear.

He said he's feeling much better -- he's disengaging from me, emotionally, which seems to be helping him. It makes me so terribly lonely and miserable, but I'm truly glad he's doing better. He knows how I feel, and he said he understands some of what I must have felt when he was so upset after DDay, as he's watching me go through this.

He said he doesn't want to be the kind of person to R. That's the part that I struggle with the most. The "want" part of it. "Can't" is one thing, but to not want to... I know it's his right. I don't feel entitled, and it's not about expectations. But if I'm being honest, what I hear when he says that is "You're not enough". "What we had isn't enough." "My feelings for you aren't enough." And by God, that hurts. I struggle with those thoughts on normal days, and it's really hard to not believe them when I hear things like that come out of his mouth. It makes me severely depressed.

I'm expecting some 2x4's, but let me say: I know that's the same message he got when I went outside of our marriage. I'm acutely aware of it. Every shot of pain is doubled because it's wrapped up in the knowledge that I made him feel this way, but worse. Every hurt is magnified because I willingly caused it.

I keep hoping he'll change his mind, but he's not really that kind. I keep hoping he's truly still undecided, but I doubt it. I keep hoping if I prove myself to him, maybe he'll think I'm worth trying to make it work with...but it's not really about me. It's about him, and what kind of person he wants to be. I can't really do anything about that, just like he can't do anything to force me into being a better person. Change has to come from within. But, believing (and knowing!) that change is possible when you want it, that blasted hope is still there. The hope that maybe, one day, just possibly, he'll decide to not take the well-worn path. If a girl can dream...

As for responses:

Sanibelredfish - I can't disagree with your assessment. I struggle with struggle -- it brings up lots of nasty issues I have about worth and value, and so I'm inexperienced in dealing with it. Defeatism might just be realism, considering what I'm dealing with. I often feel that I must be losing my mind to still be hoping for anything other than an easy, amicable D. And that hope is all that sustains me, some days. When hope falters, I fall into despair.

And yes, I do hesitate to be vulnerable with him. This is largely due to 2 factors: First, I simply do not have experience with it. I have a hard time with being vulnerable to anyone, even myself, so it's a steep learning curve. Second, BH feels awkward when presented with emotions. He doesn't know what to do with them, and they make him want to leave the room.

I will say that I am far more vulnerable and emotional in person than I am in my writing -- at least, lately. I spent basically all evening last night in sobbing tears, to the point where BH came up to check on me because he was concerned. Considering his aversion to being around strong feelings, and my aversion to showing them, I think that says a lot about the state both of us were in.

I very much appreciate the words of caution. I don't believe I've done enough (I don't really believe there is any such thing), and I don't think BH is being unreasonable. His stance is painful for me, but I understand where he's coming from. I just desperately wish he would see things the way I do -- though I know he also wishes I would "come around" to his way of thinking. We're at a bit of a perspective impasse, I guess.

My biggest concern is that he won't give me the time to be able to demonstrate to him that I mean it for the long haul. 6 months of good behavior pale in comparison to 12 months of horrendous actions, especially since much of what I'm doing now is stuff that I should have been doing all along!

SilverLinings55 - I appreciate the sympathy. I have a very analytical mind, so unless I'm falling apart I come off as detached and observational. Like I'm examining, rather than experiencing. Usually I am able to overcome that perception in conversations by being a very engaged listener, but in written communication it's a challenge for me. For what it's worth, I think this is one area where BH and I aligned too well, which enabled some deficiencies in both of us. His discomfort with emotional displays gave me permission to stay unemotional, and my "even-keel" disposition meant he didn't have to grow in his capacity to handle them. I truly don't know if my emotional volatility is a result of the strength of the feelings I'm having these days, or because of the work I'm doing to get in touch with them.

HelenKeller - This is a good question. I feel like BH and I talk about this stuff a fair amount -- certainly more than we ever have before -- but I'm certain there's a lot he doesn't know. A lot of what I say here is me working through events that have happened or my reactions to things, to get differing perspectives. But I take things I learn and I either talk to him about them or I put them into practice to show him. In any case, we could be doing more. His distancing from me makes the opportunities fewer, but we discuss these things to some extent every night during our check-ins (the amount of discussion varies wildly from 30 minutes to multiple hours).

CSCE - your introspection is admirable. My response here is meant to be gentle but firm.

It would be easier to make sure I'm meeting his expectations and being as safe as possible if he gave me more to go on. As it is, I'm playing darts in the dark.

Gently, no you are not. This response conjures up a lot of frustration in me because it just isn't true. That's your fear and victimhood talking. Did you need a map to navigate with your AP for a year? Did you move forward with trepidation and claim that you were stumped about what to do with your AP because he neglected to give you the "right" path forward for him? Or did you power through without knowing what he really wanted, just meandering and trying to please yourself and him?

It always amazed me when Mr. ISurvived told me this. Twenty years together and he isn't sure about what I need? How about a loyal partner? How about a partner willing to sacrifice for your partner's safety? How about a partner doing anything possible forever to keep their BS and their M together? How about a partner who is willing to keep at it for however long it takes to win their BS back? Isn't your BH worth it?

Yes your BH is detaching - he must to survive. This has nothing to do with you. It has everything to do with human nature and the ability to be whole again which means getting a realistic view of his spouse and the danger she presents to him. The only way to do that is to detach. The question is can you build something new and better once he has his wits about him again?

Stop wanting him to give you something - that time has passed since you took everything away from him. Instead fix yourself so you can give to him - and keep giving to him forever. Once your mind gets out of the pattern of expecting him to help you make him feel better, you will actually be able to do it because you will realize that you need to spend all of that time working on you and understanding why you did this and how you made him feel. When you have empathy and remorse rather than regret you will be a much safer partner for him.

Again . . . Relax. Breathe deeply, eat well, SLEEP, and drink plenty of fluids (NOT alcohol). Part of what is needed from you (for both you and your husband) is to feel good and feel positive. Letting the pain and frustration overwhelm you simply means wasting your love and emotional output on outcomes that may or may not come to pass. Don't give in to that! Do you feel the need to get upset or frustrated? That's okay . . . if you must . . . give yourself a specific amount of time to submit to those feelings, and then push them away and force doing (or thinking) something positive into their place.

Look at the Pro's (as well as the obvious Con's) to what has happened:

You may well have 6 months instead of 3. His IC saw something in him that made the suggestion of more time seem viable. You will have many more good moments (and even decent average moments) together. Appreciate every single one . . . If you have to, compel yourself to do this. You will come out with a greater appreciation of life in general, and that will be good for you (and your husband) no matter what the outcome may be.

Again, let go of the outcome. There is more time. It's tough to do what you can to try and fight the pain that you both live with. It's probably even rougher not knowing what will happen. And probably most devastating is dealing with the incredible frustration of not knowing whether anything you try and do has (or will have) any effect or not. But, as you must realize when you think about it, it simply isn't something you can gauge at this point. So, allow yourself to feel it for a tiny bit, but don't dwell on it . . . push it to the side and continue to do the best you can do. Time, dedication, a positive persona, and personal growth are your allies. Embrace them.

ISurvivedSoFar - I know your posts are always meant gently.

I'm sorry I've caused you frustration. Truly. I understand what you mean, and it reminds me of BH's stance that he wasn't going to give me "a manual" on how to fix it. I managed to break it, so now I need to figure out what to do with the pieces on my own.

All I meant is that it's difficult to rely on my instincts when at the same time I don't trust my judgment about anything, anymore.

Anyway, I guess what I'm saying is just that I'm struggling. I'm making a concerted effort to post here even when I know the response is going to be a kick in the pants (maybe especially then?), but I do feel like a disappointment when I do.

c24j - There's something very grounding about your posts. I really appreciate them, so thank you for coming back.

I make a concerted effort to not wallow in the bad feelings, and for the most part I succeed. It gets overwhelming at times, and in those moments I do break down, but I know any time I waste on self-pity is time I will regret (no matter what), so I fight it. I make an effort to be present and receptive whenever he engages with me. I remind myself to be thankful for that time, and to appreciate it. That part is easy, because I do appreciate it.

You're right that letting go is hard, for exactly the reasons you mention. I try to remind myself that while I can't know if what I'm doing has any benefit, I can at least take solace that I'm not causing any more harm. Hopefully, my efforts are making his healing smoother -- that's something I can hold onto, and that's something I know how to do.