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Losfer

Thank you so much for the kind words and support! I couldn't even bare to look yesterday at the forums or this thread because in the end this whole thing is humiliating. Maybe even worse for those of us here. But with that bad comes the good(?) of knowing a little more or understanding easier the how and why of getting here? Maybe that's just hope, not a bad thing.

Sleeping a little better but honestly not without medication. The anxiety is crippling at times. Silence is the worst.

My H's IC seemed to go fine. He said it felt good to be able to talk to someone about everything on his own and it lifted a lot of his anxiety. He felt calm for the first time in weeks. I wanted to hit him. I cant eat, i cant sleep, i cry all the time when im alone and a general mess because he needed a big ego stroke but HE's now calm. But at the same time was happy for him because I love him and maybe more IC can snap him out of his fog and denial of how big a deal this is.

I have another IC today, hopefully I get out some of the anger before MC Friday.

Also I have a few questions that I know everyone has a different answer for but I'll throw them out and see what I get.

I've read a lot about HB or even people that still are having sex with spouse post Dday. How? How do you get to the point of wanting that again? How do you stop the mind movies and wondering if every touch or action was something THEY did together? After the second week I allowed my H to snuggle in bed and we hug and I like and crave the affection but nothing more. I don't think we've even kissed since then. It's so weirdly lonely and sad.

Everyone seems to be split on how much to ask about the A and details. Hearing him say that 'sometimes you just meet someone and feel this connection like this person truly understands me' soul mate crap just crushed me but it was also the big wake up I needed to realize how much he was still in the fog. Does asking the hard questions and knowing the timeline help snap them out of that fog? I want to get to the real hard work we have to do on bonding and communicating but I feel like MC is a waste of time if you BS is still in some fog.

I feel awful asking for complete transparency in regards to checking his email and texts even though I do it when he's not watching. For one just doing these things makes me a person i don't like being. also, I feel like talking about it will only make him delete the info before I can get it. Both his phone and computer are work issued so I have no access during the day. I guess this is where I have to start with the rebuilding of trust maybe? Trust that he will not delete browser history and emails?

Any thoughts or suggestions?

Also I would like to say to all the people who've posted before me, thank you. Thank you for sharing your stories and experience. Seeing other people's struggles has helped me understand my own better and every post gives me a new path to think about and explore. I wish all of you happiness and luck with your own struggles.

Hi Seasickyetdocked -

Just checking in a bit. Glad to hear that you had a bit better luck in the sleep department. It does get better with time. It is okay to rely on medication for sleep/depression issues, although I'd definitely recommend consulting your doc about that if you haven't already.

HB seems to be different for everyone. My wife went through a phase of it early on. I do understand the distance and detachment when it comes to intimacy as well. We've gone through phases of that also.

When it comes to asking the hard questions, and figuring out what level of detail to go into, I honestly thing that rests primarily on you. There are some people who want every last detail. I am not one of those people. I still had some fairly detailed questions, but a lot of the nitty gritty was just way too soul crushing to me. In my case, getting a timeline did help quite a bit. As far as snapping out of the fog is concerned... that doesn't seem to happen until true remorse happens. You'll know it when you see it.

Trust is slow to rebuild. Trust, but verify. If you are still early out, it is okay to be in espionage mode as well. If you have access to things he doesn't know about, it is okay at this point not to give up your sources. Nobody likes doing their own PI work, but at this point in time, it is important to look out for yourself as much as possible. Again, it takes a long time to rebuild trust.

Hope things are going well and that everyone is hanging in there this evening!

Welcome, Seasickyetdocked!

After the second week I allowed my H to snuggle in bed and we hug and I like and crave the affection but nothing more. I don't think we've even kissed since then. It's so weirdly lonely and sad.

Take your time, do what makes you feel comfortable. Talk about it. You don't have to pressure yourself to do more than you're ready to.

Does asking the hard questions and knowing the timeline help snap them out of that fog? I want to get to the real hard work we have to do on bonding and communicating but I feel like MC is a waste of time if you BS is still in some fog.

Sometimes. Sunlight can be a marvelous disinfectant. When he writes out a timeline, it might force him to answer some questions that make him uncomfortable, because all the secrets are being exposed. It might also really help you to have all the answers in one place. There is only so much you can do to "snap him out" of the fog, and largely it has to come from him. But timeline can really be helpful. Is he working on one for you? Is it something you can work on together?

I guess this is where I have to start with the rebuilding of trust maybe? Trust that he will not delete browser history and emails?

It might be too soon to trust, especially if he is still in a fog. But checking the history and emails together might help the process of rebuilding trust and accountability for him. If you have doubts, you can verify - do checks without him to see if he's deleting anything before doing checks together. Until he leaves the fog and until your gut is quiet, I think it's good to keep verifying so you can get as much of the truth as possible.

Can phone records be changed? If not, that might be a good thing to begin checking together.

Losfer,

That first question is really interesting about whether we disagree on what's abusive. I think we do disagree on that. We have talked about it. I tell her that she was being abusive towards me, and she denies it. I think part of that may come from some of the abusive behavior she received as a child. Maybe what she redirects towards me isn't as extreme as what she experienced. One thing that she doesn't deny is that she says some really hurtful things towards me when she is angry.

I think if you see it as abusive, then it's something for her to look closer at. It's important that you don't get invalidated. Maybe by looking closer at how you're feeling and validating you, it might also help her examine some of the abuse she went through as a child and validate her own experiences, and find common ground and compassion for both experiences. Is the childhood abuse something she's been exploring?

How was your vacation? Hope you all had a good time!

As for stuff happening at home...

About three days ago, my H said nasty/scary things late at night again. I told him that if he's really sorry about doing it (he apologizes the next morning and then does it again a day later), then don't do it for a week. He hasn't done it in three days so far. But there have been other things happening, and everything else caught up - feeling very depressed right now. Going to "think my way out of it" later, but for right now, just trying to accept it. Using those fabulous DBT skills.

I wish I could set up boundaries around A-talks with H, but he sticks to his guns that neither of us cheated, nothing happened with him and other girls, and therefore there's nothing to talk about. Complete and utter denial and minimization. Unfortunately, after four and a half years of this, I think it's time to accept that I will be healing from this alone. But that doesn't have to be a bad thing.

[This message edited by silverhopes at 12:21 PM, April 2nd (Wednesday)]

Damn, I broke my rule again.

He did it again last night, started in on me. When he did, I was too angry to speak, so it ended sooner than usual. Now he's asking what we fought about last night.

Still angry with him, so trying to think of solutions. I think no longer engaging when it happens might help. I don't want to feed the dance.

[This message edited by silverhopes at 10:56 AM, April 3rd (Thursday)]

Hi Silver,

I think if you see it as abusive, then it's something for her to look closer at. It's important that you don't get invalidated. Maybe by looking closer at how you're feeling and validating you, it might also help her examine some of the abuse she went through as a child and validate her own experiences, and find common ground and compassion for both experiences. Is the childhood abuse something she's been exploring?

I completely agree with you that it is something that needs to be looked at. Continually, actually. My wife has addressed many of the things she went through during her childhood in IC, and through her own personal research and reading. I'm probably not going to talk about it too much more here, because she is a member here. I don't want her to feel uncomfortable if she does decide to come back here and read/post some more. One thing I will say is that she has been working very hard the last several weeks on her anger management, and not "blowing up". She has made noteworthy improvements, and I'm actually really proud of her for this, because I can see that it is a struggle for her, and I can see that she is making some very visible changes.

How was your vacation? Hope you all had a good time!

The vacation was fantastic, thanks! We stayed local, so I guess it was more of a "staycation"? Got a lot of stuff done around the house, caught up on some much needed sleep, and had a few fun family outings. It was really refreshing for all of us.

About three days ago, my H said nasty/scary things late at night again. I told him that if he's really sorry about doing it (he apologizes the next morning and then does it again a day later), then don't do it for a week. He hasn't done it in three days so far. But there have been other things happening, and everything else caught up - feeling very depressed right now. Going to "think my way out of it" later, but for right now, just trying to accept it. Using those fabulous DBT skills.

I can't really speak to the DBT skills, although I have heard it is a really powerful, yet intensive therapy. I'd say definitely to use those skills that you've learned from DBT to the best of your ability. It sounds like you really did a fantastic job at staying cool and collected, and standing your ground. Has the depression gotten any better? Sending you many kind thoughts as far as that in particular is concerned...

I wish I could set up boundaries around A-talks with H, but he sticks to his guns that neither of us cheated, nothing happened with him and other girls, and therefore there's nothing to talk about. Complete and utter denial and minimization. Unfortunately, after four and a half years of this, I think it's time to accept that I will be healing from this alone. But that doesn't have to be a bad thing.

That really sucks that you are carrying this weight on your own, Silver. One thing that I am impressed with is that you are continuing with your own healing anyway. Throughout my own experience, and what I've witnessed from others here, that really seems to be the healthiest path, no matter the outcome. You may not be able to heal your marriage or relationship on your own, but one thing you do have control over is your own healing. That definitely does not have to be a bad thing. That is a sign of strength. I've read a lot of your posts over the last couple of years, and I can see you healing, and see your strength shine through. Definitely keep up with that.

Damn, I broke my rule again.

You know... it's okay to vent if you ever need to. I understand your personal rules, but sometimes you just have to get this stuff off of your chest, even if you are just talking things through with yourself.

He did it again last night, started in on me. When he did, I was too angry to speak, so it ended sooner than usual. Now he's asking what we fought about last night.

This sounds to me like it is probably related to his alcohol usage. I'm not quite sure how to advise you here. If he has had too much and is not listening to reason, it is okay to draw your boundaries and disengage for the evening. Maybe shelve things until the next day? Perhaps you could even write down what he is angry about, and let him know you aren't playing games, it is late at night, and you'd prefer to talk about it tomorrow? I'm just kind of grasping at straws here, trying to help you figure out how to deal with the situation. Definitely take or leave whatever suggestions I come up with.

Still angry with him, so trying to think of solutions. I think no longer engaging when it happens might help. I don't want to feed the dance.

I think you might be right that some form of detachment or disengagement might be key here.

How have things been going the last day or so?

Seasickyetdocked - You still with us? Hope things are going well.

ETA: Edited for grammatical discombobulation.

[This message edited by LosferWords at 10:40 PM, April 3rd (Thursday)]

I'm probably not going to talk about it too much more here, because she is a member here. I don't want her to feel uncomfortable if she does decide to come back here and read/post some more.

That definitely makes sense, and it sounds very respectful of her boundaries.

One thing I will say is that she has been working very hard the last several weeks on her anger management, and not "blowing up". She has made noteworthy improvements, and I'm actually really proud of her for this, because I can see that it is a struggle for her, and I can see that she is making some very visible changes.

That is so wonderful to hear! It sounds like there's a lot of healing going on right now

Has the depression gotten any better?

Not yet. I think this has been a good learning experience that I still look too much to friends and family to help stabilize - too much external validation. And there's been a lot of interpersonal drama with just about everyone lately. I've got to picture what life would be like if I were my only support system… What would be my first step to getting stable again? I'm stuck at the first step. Is it NC with everyone?

I can't really speak to the DBT skills, although I have heard it is a really powerful, yet intensive therapy.

They really really really are! I'm one of those nuts who think EVERYONE would benefit from the DBT skills just because they help you manage your life so well. Apparently they take a lot from Buddhist principles and incorporate them into the lessons.

Perhaps you could even write down what he is angry about, and let him know you aren't playing games, it is late at night, and you'd prefer to talk about it tomorrow?

I think this is a great idea! It's always easier to talk about the next day when he's not angry, and I think he knows it too - the next morning he always says that he didn't mean what he said the night before, but I think it's worth talking through again, because he wouldn't keep bringing up similar things when he gets drunk if it were really "nothing". I've also been trying to use the VAR on nights when I think he's winding up.

Throughout my own experience, and what I've witnessed from others here, that really seems to be the healthiest path, no matter the outcome. You may not be able to heal your marriage or relationship on your own, but one thing you do have control over is your own healing.

So true! I learned that from the WS side more than anything. When you take charge of your own healing, you take charge of your own life.

Just a thought… Maybe I can list the things that I'm stuck on in my personal life:

- Readying Lil Silver for preschool - having some difficulties with behavioral issues (he hits and bites me a lot) and toilet training. Also need to take him to the playground to be around other kids everyday, and it's sometimes hard to leave the home with the depression and anxiety.

- Addressing my hoarding/cluttering issue. I've been working hard on all my things in the basement (complicated situation - my godmother has a habit of making my things disappear - that's what triggered the depression earlier this week, when she threw away some of my chief cooking spices and I discovered this in the middle of preparing a meal), and I've almost gotten through the "sorting" phase. Got about ten more boxes I'm having trouble sorting… Figure the next step after is "purging" within each category (S.P.A.C.E. = sorting, purging, assigning a home, containerizing, equalizing). Having trouble getting motivated with the depression. Thinking a second trash sweep. Preferably will get rid of a bunch and make it all look presentable before my aunt returns from DC in June, since she and the other extended relatives are pressuring us all to empty the basement (for no reason at all - not to renovate, not to put something down there, they just simply want an empty basement… I'm not thrilled about this idea, since the majority of my things are down there).

- H's anger issues and supporting him as he gets some family back (sister, brother, cousin, in-laws), and deals with losing others (both his parents).

- Friend drama to the max. Suspect two are having an A, another one is suicidal, a family of friends have suddenly dropped off and I'm paranoid I inadvertently offended them (it's probably just that they're busy - I'm trying to tell myself this), and my BFF is struggling with lots of life things and I'm getting tongue-tied and dealing with general social anxiety around all of them. And a new friend on a writing support site has just told me she has brain cancer. Super worried for half my friends, super pissed with the two I think are having an A.

- Anxiety about eventually returning to work. I'm asking around about opportunities in my old field. Struggling with knowing what job skills I'll need, hoping to start volunteering when Lil Silver goes to preschool (stressing big time about financial aid)… I'm on disability income right now, but the constant fear for both H and I is that we'll be kicked off eventually and be expected to make it in the job world - with our disabilities - and that we won't have the skills we need. Both that and the de-hoarding tie in to my fears about eventually finding another place to live - the Section 8 housing list in our city is CLOSED, so finding low income housing (without getting evicted in under 28 days, as is the practice of several low income housing landlords here) is going to be difficult.

My own family stuff is still in the background, but I'm trying hard to NOT think about my dad anymore. I still miss my Nana all the time.

There's so much to do, and I feel overwhelmed. I know logically I need to think of a plan. The depression is making that difficult. Thank you for letting me get that off my chest.

On the bright side, got the living room looking great. Anyone in the household who complains gets put on compost duty

In slight disbelief…

My father wrote me today - just got his email. So did the family of friends who I'd been trying to reach. And the forms came in yesterday for preschool financial aid. At first I thought Mr. Silver and I were going to be a team - he said he'd go in with me. A little while ago he abruptly told me to go into the preschool and have them walk me thought it - said it rather nastily - because I know one of the people there. Sudden change, with cursing and total disrespect in his tone, as if I wasn't doing or planning well enough. I could write it off as stress, but I don't curse him out when I get stressed.

As for Dad… I will write him back. Not sure it will be right now, though. I'm deeply hurt he took so long, and that he responded to none of what I asked him in my emails to him. No talk about my Nana, none about my family (of course)… And he was so chipper. No apologies for not writing in so long (8 months since the memorial service). And he informed me that my grandparents (the ones I had the frightening falling out with) are moving to this state. I hope they stay far, far away from me. As far as I'm concerned, they're unsafe for me and my son. Which is making me wonder what I should say back to my father. Should I just validate him for the fun he's been having in the kitchen? Ask him simple recipe advice? Say I'm glad the grandfather's surgery went OK? And nothing more? I don't want him to know too much personal information anymore. He threw me away. He doesn't want to know my issues. He's not a support system.

Upset about the two friends who appear to be in an affair. Upset about the cheating (if I'm right and that's what's happening), upset about losing friends, and weirdly upset about being made to feel like the third wheel for so many months before now. I have no proof of the cheating, just the vibe from their messages - it's a group conversation email type thing, between four of us - one friend, the other friend, the other friend's spouse, and me (three of us are college friends). I've noticed that the one's spouse and I haven't been responding to as many emails lately - I wonder if he's feeling the same discomfort I am (the times he does respond seem forced, like he's trying to be happy when the two write poetry to each other). The three of them hang out in person a lot more (and lately have been seeming to try to hide this from me, in a weird way, which just adds to the secretive/inappropriate vibes), and it seems like the two always have these flirty inside jokes, or one only ever responds to what the other one says, either ignoring or disagreeing with what I or the one's spouse says. It's sickening. Luckily the couple is moving at the end of the month to another state. Hope that puts an end to this whole mess. The worst thing is, I keep doubting myself - what if they really are only friends and I'm being paranoid for no reason (but my instincts have almost never been wrong before), or what if (if they do have some kind of connection) the one's spouse is somehow above board on it? Ugh. Going NC with them.

Looking forward to hanging out with the other family of friends.

Anyway… going to do the best we can on the financial aid app. Just going to accept that this will be a very stressful week. But once we get this in, it's probably over being stressful for a while at least with that battle. Once April's over, we can begin to let go of the stress. We will find a way.

Peace...

anyone else's spouse answer a question with "the same reason you did." infuriating. Why? fucking blameshifter. Just answer the question.

Silver-

You've got a ton on your plate right now. The thing about your friend's affairs sucks. I'm in a similar situation with a former buddy who became a WS and his BS who are reconciling... I don't want anything to do with him, but he's recently popped back in to my life.

Rachel- No advice, sorry. It's never happened to me.

anyone else's spouse answer a question with "the same reason you did." infuriating. Why? fucking blameshifter. Just answer the question.

Did he say that recently to you, Rachelc? Has he ever looked deeper than this, or has he always blameshifted?

I'm in a similar situation with a former buddy who became a WS and his BS who are reconciling... I don't want anything to do with him, but he's recently popped back in to my life.

Sorry to hear, Ascendant. How are you handling the situation right now, with him trying to get back in your life? Is it bringing up triggers for you?

[This message edited by silverhopes at 11:21 PM, April 7th (Monday)]

yeah he did. and he said, "this is a cop out answer but the same reason you did." I said, "yep, cop out answer."

That's so strange. He acknowledges it as a "cop out answer" but then gives it anyway? What work is he doing on himself to take responsibility for his affairs, and to help you heal?

Just checking in here. It has been quite a few days since I've posted in this thread, but it does always kind of feel like 'home', if that makes sense.

Silver - It sounds like you have gone through some pretty heavy things personally and with your FOO in the last week or so, how are things going now? Did you write your Dad back?

I'm not sure how to advise you with the awkwardness that you seem to be feeling in your response to him. If it is of any comfort or commiseration, I talk to my parents once or twice a week, and I am so different from them that the awkwardness is still there. I think that's just the way it is with some people and their folks. It's like we're from different planets. I know you have a hell of a lot more going on than just that, but I wanted to at least let you know that I understand to a certain extent. It's okay if you want to respond to him and respond to kitchen and cooking topics. I talked to my folks about gardening and ham today, even though there is so much more that I would like to say.

How are things going with NC with your friends? That's gotta be tough. I'm so sorry you are having to deal with that. Even this far out from d-day, I bet that is triggery as hell.

Rachel - My wife and I have never said that flat out, "the same reason you did". We have done some stare and compare type conversations, where we compare our mindsets with each other while in the midst of our respective bullshit, which has actually been a constructive thing. To me it sounds like your husband said this out of exasperation, and not wanting to deal. Do you think this is a temporary thing, or is this his attitude in general?

Ascendant - How are things going for you recently?

As for me, things are going pretty well, especially in the last two or three months. I hope it sticks.

If it is of any comfort or commiseration, I talk to my parents once or twice a week, and I am so different from them that the awkwardness is still there. I think that's just the way it is with some people and their folks.

I'm like that with my mother....but I'm really tight with my dad. We have similar intellectual viewpoints, senses of humor, etc. I don't "get" my mom in the same way I "get" my dad, you know? Even when my dad does things I don't agree with, I understand his mental space and the machinations behind the decision-making process....but with my mom it's like trying to listen to someone's conversation through a wall...it just seems like unintelligible jargon.

Ascendant - How are things going for you recently?

Honestly? I don't know. I mean, no fights or anything, but still a lot of resentment there inside me....and I don't know how to deal with it, or resolve it.

I'm a reluctant madhatter...after enduring five years of my WH's EA/PA I found comfort in the arms of a married man. I realize that that sounds as though I'm blaming WS and I'm not---I chose this path and it's my fault. Things went fast and furious with my AP and I ended things today when I realized the hopeless nature of our relationship. We were together less than three months. Yes I'm going through huge withdrawal already but my IC can address some of those feelings. My question is do I have to tell WS? He has no suspicions and we are trying to figure our own relationship out. Yes, I realize I am hiding something huge from him but if it's over, and it is, why must he know? My own trip down Infidelity Lane has sure given me a different perspective on why WH strayed. I think I have finally understood why he did it and can move on. Anyway thanks to all.

My question is do I have to tell WS?

yes. do you really want to be someone who has to trick someone into staying married to you? Love him enough to give him the choice. Love him enough to want to have a chance at true intimacy. If there is a big secret, there is no chance for this, IMHO.

It's tough - I've been there - but it's the right thing to do. AND, if your AP has a spouse she needs to be informed.

[This message edited by rachelc at 10:03 AM, April 14th (Monday)]

Ugh. I've read enough on this board to know that would be the answer. I don't relish this conversation tonight with Mr. D. I just hope he will listen before making a rash decision. Wow do I hate the thought of telling AP's wife. She's really innocent in all this. Although I sure wish someone would've told me five times before. I cannot believe how weak and stupid I've been to even be in this situation.

Do you know what hits me hard sometimes? There were a couple people who knew about my attraction to AP. No one knew when it went physical. I told my bff and she told me to keep my mouth shut. 3 days later I confessed. She and I are no longer friends. What hits me though is how many suspected? I remember mentioning I thought he was attractive to a coworker and she asked me why I didn't do anything and I told her I'd never do that to xSO and I meant it at the time. I think of a time AP texted me after we went out drinking with everyone from work. I was with a coworker and showed her the text saying he was an idiot and I was going home to my boyfriend. The text was asking me to go to his place. This is also before it got physical. At that moment I got ego kibbles and I wanted nothing to do with him....I just wanted to go home. I wonder if any of my old coworkers think badly of me. Think I am a slut or cheater. Think I am a liar or a fool. I know I can post this in wayward but I don't want to, it feels right over here. I spoke to another coworker about being uncomfortable because he flirted. Same person who was with me when I got the texts.

Then I think of myself during that time as a person. I was still me but a me with aspects I do not like. I wanted a promotion but treated the people I was supervising as friends. I remember one claimed on a table after work one day and was dancing. I scolded her but never reported her. One mooned us one day, I scolded him but manager was there too and nothing was mentioned. I listened to music with them when we closed and acted silly dancing while we closed up. I wanted to be light hearted and fun but wonder now if I was overly friendly and a fool. Was it just another step on this path of stupidity? Who I was in that time frame of 6 months I rly do not like. I analyze everything now. Fuck my life. I want to move to a state where no one knows me and start anew. Is that cowardice?

Is it OK to feel like I'm better than my WH husband? Because I do. =/

I had an unintentional long distance EA a long time ago. And when I realized what I was doing I cut it off and haven't looked back because I didn't want to do that to my husband. I never told him about it then because I didn't want to hurt him. I never intended to do anything like that again -- and I haven't.

Last year my husband had an EA and I understood where he was coming from because I had been there. I "came clean" about my EA so I could show him how I understood the loneliness and felt like my WH didn't care about me anymore. We rug swept the entire thing and tried to work things out. And I really did forgive him and really did try to make things better.

Clue up dd #2. He had a PA with my only real friend. (His best friends wife!) I just feel like I was a better person than him because I had refused to do anything like that to my spouse.