SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

MCC, I just wanted to add this too. I am not being critical of you at all.

For me... the hurt from the betrayal went SO deep. SO DEEP. It hurt me in a way that I find hard to really describe, even all these years later. It damaged the very core of my being. And in addition that THAT lovely gift, the additional months (in my case - years in yours) of lying, minimizing, false promises, actions not matching words, you know all the false R bullshit just kept that initial wound gaping open and bleeding.

It is absolutely NORMAL to want to find anything to make that hurt better, and a lot of people find other people to salve it. I'm not assigning "right" or "wrong" to that, but I am saying that in my personal and lived experience, salving a deep wound like a betrayal and false R with another person rarely ends well for anyone. It is so unfair, but ultimately YOU have to heal that wound and stitch it back together on your own, and that's true whether you date or not.

In dating, you have the butterflies and the magic and the long talks and and and... yeah, it would make it feel better, not gonna lie. But what happens when new guy is protective over his phone or promises to do a b or c and doesn't or (god forbid) you see him send flirty messages to someone else? That wound is now torn open again and this time it has salt and lemon juice and acetone in it.

I am still working on my healing and the last time I even spoke to my xwh was five years ago next month. It is not a quick process and it deserves all of the focus you can give to it.

I have martyr tendencies, but I am definitely not codependent.

That's a contradictory statement.

You're obviously not an Italian Catholic lol. I learned it from my mother, and it;s not about codependency, it's more about a sense of nurturing and I do this for everyone.

I have been an adult for 27 years and 14 of those I have been single - I am the complete opposite of dependent on a partner, I promise you. I am more aggressively independent.

So much so that when WS detached from me and stopped calling every night / being available and generally was detached I literally didn't notice.

Yes, is that so bad after three years of R not beginning? Is it so bad to want to just feel better? ...... Would it be so terribly bad to just want to have a bit of fun and feel a bit nice for once?

There is nothing wrong with wanting to feel better. Infidelity is hard. One-sided R is hard. Breakups are hard. You deserve to feel better and I WANT YOU TO FEEL BETTER. My concern is that you've been 'single' for like a week and are still having relationship-like conversations with your ex. You posted in the R forum within the last month. You have not yet detached at all. I think you've taken major significant steps towards doing so recently, and I applaud you for it, but I just don't think you're ready yet. I think going on a few dates is likely to create more chaos and turmoil for you in the short term and distract you from your own healing (which I know is exactly what you probably want right now).

I also worry that right now you think you need to be with someone else to feel better or happy or "feel a bit nice". What I want for you is to take a little bit of time so that you can be confident that you can feel all by those things on your own. That way, when you move into the next relationship, you will be healthy and whole and healed and you will be in the best possible position to be able to find someone else who is healthy and healed and whole. People like that (Ellie is a great example!) are less likely to accept bullshit from a partner in their next relationship. Ellie for example is happy with herself and because she is not afraid of being alone, her standards for a partner are high.

I know that probably sounds terrible, but if I can't be honest on SI then I can't be honest anywhere.

I don't think it sounds terrible. I am not judging you. I PROMISE. I'm not saying any of this because I think you owe it to your ex. I'm saying this because I think you owe it to YOURSELF.

So playing along..
Scenario 1: Your ex gets insanely jealous. How does that feel to you? What does that give you emotionally?

WTH, I am going to sound like an awful person but I will answer those questions honestly.

Him being jealous would feel good. There is a part of me that is SICK of having lived for three damn years wondering "was the sex better with her?", "was she more fun?". And he hasn't had much empathy. In fact once I remember telling him those thoughts really plagued me and he responded with "I am sorry you feel that way". Not "no that is not true she was not better in bed", just "I am sorry you feel that way. I mean, he stinks at empathy. He always did, but I was chilled and secure and a happy person who felt great so I didn't need empathy, but now when I did, he stinks at it.

On the other hand if it hurt him, if it caused him anything on any level of the pain I have suffered then I would genuinely hate that.

Scenario 2: Your ex kinda gives lip service to caring, but he doesn't really. How does that land on you?

Great, this would free me up to move on without the doubts I have.

Scenario 3: Your ex doesn't care or uses it as a convenient excuse to abandon any of his work and go find someone else. How does that strike you?

Great, this would free me up to move on without the doubts I have.

what I am tired of is limbo. Being on permanent hold because of someone else.

People like that (Ellie is a great example!) are less likely to accept bullshit from a partner in their next relationship.

what I am tired of is limbo. Being on permanent hold because of someone else.

MCC, so sorry you lost your fiancé in such a traumatic way.

How about filing for D? THEN date.

Filing is certainly a step towards climbing out of limbo.

If his actions match his words in the coming months and you want to pursue that 1% chance, then stop the D proceedings.

I agree with most of the feed back here. Jumping into the dating pool right now will add to the confusion caused by the mixed messages you've been getting from your betraying partner recently. Your postings reflect the push-and-pull obstacle course he's been putting you through.

Hope he is still blocked so you have some space to figure things out!

Not telling him feels bad because in his head he hasn't accepted it's over.

Telling him feels either cruel or manipulative.

I realise at this point I owe him nothing, yes, but it's a messy swamp

TBH, your separation sounds like a torturous version of infidelity limbo - a limbo where you are still emotionally enmeshed with someone who enjoys pushing your buttons. Filing for D would certainly help to un-muddy the water. Filing for D sends the message you SAY you want to send - that it's indeed over. Then if you want to date everything is crystal clear. You can proceed without feeling cruel or manipulative.

MCC - If you're not ready to pull the plug and file for D, area you really ready to date?

[This message edited by BoundaryBuilder at 11:35 PM, Thursday, September 21st]

I am so sorry that you lost someone you love in such a traumatic way. That's absolutely heartbreaking. Big, big hugs.

You're obviously not an Italian Catholic lol. I learned it from my mother, and it;s not about codependency, it's more about a sense of nurturing and I do this for everyone.

No, but I'm married to one! He calls himself a "Recovering Roman Catholic." I'm of the stuff-your-feelings-and-smile Methodist variety myself.

IMO, a lot of what I've read here is in the codep column, but we don't have to get stuck on that. I'll take off my Junior Counselor hat and let it go.

[This message edited by SacredSoul33 at 10:00 PM, Thursday, September 21st]

MCC you don't sound like a terrible person. You sound like a NORMAL person that is dealing with a huge pile of hurt and years of additional hurt from false R. You sound like a BS, in short.

what I am tired of is limbo. Being on permanent hold because of someone else.

Oh I get this. But you know what I found out? I was in the limbo ride because I sat down and belted myself to it and then clung onto it like an octopus (told you I was all attachy and shit). But that's the thing - you are only in limbo until you unbuckle, stand up, and exit the ride. Just like Dorothy, the power to do that is yours and has been all along. Your life is on hold because you've pushed the pause button waiting to see if he was gonna get on the ride with you. I get that, I promise you I do. I did it too.

Again - NOT criticizing you at ALL for that. I think those are very normal reactions to betrayal and I had more than my fair share of them too. Infidelity is so unbelievably disorienting, and it is for LONG time, not just for a week or a month but for YEARS. You have to retrain your trauma brain - you KNOW that from losing your fiancé. That is not a fast process, it just takes as long as it takes. And you do owe YOU the space to process things, sans someone else's presence, opinions, distractions, etc.

Maybe some people will give you the goforit message that you want, but I believe that truth for a BS is the most important thing, so I will not be one of those. Truthfully I think that anyone dating immediately after a breakup is not a good idea. I think that anyone who still has hours long convos with their ex is not ready to date yet. I think that BS's need to be especially cautions about 'getting back out there' because of the hurt they have felt. I think far too many people jump back in to the dating pool way too soon and hurt people hurt people. Just my 0.02.

No, but I'm married to one! He calls himself a "Recovering Roman Catholic." laugh I'm of the stuff-your-feelings-and-smile Methodist variety myself

We are raised to suffer! :D

I think you have all probably made very useful comments and given feedback that's probably very accurate. I probably do need a bit of time to grieve by myself.

I might need to find ways to soothe that bit of myself that feels like my life has been wasted in some sense. I achieved so much in my life in terms of work, parenting (have a grown child), friends, travel. This one part of life has eluded me, and I'll be honest this past year my grief and pain got so big I stopped caring about almost anything.

I don't feel I have any energy anymore.

As someone who often has and often will still put other people’s needs above my own, I understand the problem. Ironic coming from a ws I know :-)

I don’t think you seem ready after reading through the thread. BUT, then make not doing it about you not being ready. What are the plans for divorce? Do you interact with him? If so, why?

Maybe this is less about hurting him and more about wanting for everything to be finalized for your own integrity? I think I would practice thinking about and filling other needs right now. Maybe join some new groups in which you can partake in similar interests with other people. Pamper yourself. Practice doing things for yourself more.

I am not a psychologist either but I do feel like soul sister is pointing at something that feels a bit co-dependent to me as well. And maybe your religion has instilled it in you so you think it’s just that. But if you put up with false R for three years, are now separated, and still worry about hurting him, that’s not healthy for you no matter how you label it.

I think sometimes when a relationship ends it’s good to look at what you would do differently if that ever happened again. How would you save yourself? And what barriers would you have to overcome for that to become a reality. We are not here to suffer, so whether it’s religikn, martyrdom, codependency, or whatever it’s not healthy. And when we are out of balance we unconsciously bring in people who might exploit that in us. So I personally wouldn’t look at this as "this is just who so am". I would look at it as let’s get to the root of that because I am a magnificent being and I deserve better. I won’t accept anything less.

I can appreciate you have been careful about who you attach to, but that doesn’t mean when you do attach it’s a style of attachment that is working for you.

Please know I am not criticizing you. I don’t even know you. I am telling you this because you do deserve better moving forward, and I think it would be good to do some soul searching to get to the place of being more on your own side than on someone else’s side who hasn’t been in your corner. I know two wrongs don’t make a right, but you don’t have to put away what you want any longer.

I hope that makes sense.

[This message edited by hikingout at 12:47 AM, Friday, September 22nd]

Oh and I clicked on this because we are madhatters. Lol. It’s so not a madhatters situation I couldn’t make myself go there.

I will say this- when I found out about my husbands affair it hurt. I don’t think it hurt like he did though. I understood the dynamics of cheating, and he did it within a marriage that I had already broken. It just doesn’t have the same shock value. I did consider divorce. He did the work and we are in a good place these days. (And he was truly a mad hatter I thought we were in R three years after my affair and he’s been having sex with his assistant in our home for 18 months)

But here is what I should have said about it in my other post- if he is unable to understand and deal with you dating under these circumstances it means he has taken no accountability and learned nothing. I think if he would throw that back on you that is a really good way to know he is not someone to get back with. That’s why I said soul sister was on to something.

[This message edited by hikingout at 12:54 AM, Friday, September 22nd]

MCC, so sorry you lost your fiancé in such a traumatic way.

Thank you. It really had played such a big role in why I have reacted the way I have to all of this. But it also plays into how I feel now, because let me say something entitled and childish probably: I felt like I had enough god damn pain and I wanted a nice story. And I feel cheated out of that, and probably just want to feel hope that life isn't quite over.

How about filing for D? THEN date.

We have never been married :)

Hope he is still blocked so you have some space to figure things out!

He is, but I will have to start speaking to him again at the weekend for practical reasons (work we are doing together and so on) but to be honest the blocking probably gave him a startle response :)

TBH, your separation sounds like a torturous version of infidelity limbo - a limbo where you are still emotionally enmeshed with someone who enjoys pushing your buttons.

F

It has been infidelity limbo, but I don't believe he enjoys pushing my buttons. I think that's the last thing he wants to do. What he wants is to make me happy, but not in a selfless way - more like needing the approval way. And affair work doesn't feel like approval. It feels like being the bad guy. He says it is hard to see me in so much pain and know that he has caused it all so he reacts in self defence. So in order to be able to move forward, he would need to check that at the door 100%. That is what's going on.

I wish he'd joined this forum and read some of the wisdom here - he would have learned how to navigate those feelings.

are you really ready to date?

Not really I guess. I am ready to not sit alone every night crying, but I guess that is a terrible reason to start dating.

Thanks Hiking, your posts always enlighten me.

I don’t think you seem ready after reading through the thread. BUT, then make not doing it about you not being ready. What are the plans for divorce? Do you interact with him? If so, why?

We are actually not married legally :) Although we did have a ceremony, legally speaking we are not :)

I am currently not speaking to him, but probably have to soon as we are working on something together and I am not sure how to play this out. I stopped talking to him / blocked him in a moment of anger, but I have been searching for what it is I need to do to say "goodbye" and I am not sure what it is. I have never split up with someone I still love who is begging me to stay so this is complex territory for me. Do I say goodbye to his family? What about our kids? (adult step siblings). I have said I have only had one other truly long term relationship and he died so I probably have to think of what I need to do.

I am not a psychologist either but I do feel like soul sister is pointing at something that feels a bit co-dependent to me as well. And maybe your religion has instilled it in you so you think it’s just that. But if you put up with false R for three years, are now separated, and still worry about hurting him, that’s not healthy for you no matter how you label it.

I react to everyone like this. Worry about everyone if they might feel sad or bad. I even comforted the AP at one point (not kidding!!). I once got a hamster and was so sure he was depressed I ended up spending thousands on turning an entire room into a hamster fairground thing and a) I didn't have the money to do that and b) I don't even like hamsters. And there I am googling "is my hamster happy". So this is just how I am. To be honest, being very empathetic and compassionate towards people is something I like about myself and I don't want to change it. I don't find it dysfunctional - I am slow and careful to let people into my life and don't need their approval in any way. If it makes me a schmuck sometimes, I am okay with living with that, but I don't want being in pain to fundamentally change the parts of me that I like.

I think sometimes when a relationship ends it’s good to look at what you would do differently if that ever happened again. How would you save yourself?

I have asked this question a thousand times. I don't think this insane situation could ever happen again. If someone ever cheated on me again (and three others have and I immediately left - albeit they were short relationships) I would instantly leave. These circumstances were very unique and with hindsight I don't feel I could have done anything differently. Aside from maybe leaving a year ago when it was clear R wasn't working. That said, I do not beat myself up for taking my time - it's who I am and again, maybe it made me a schmuck, but I was doing it for the right reasons (love and hope) and certainly not the wrong reasons (desperation to be with him).

So I personally wouldn’t look at this as "this is just who so am". I would look at it as let’s get to the root of that because I am a magnificent being and I deserve better. I won’t accept anything less.

I do think I deserve a lot, I think everyone does, so I am slow to choose people and careful where I invest myself. My sister is the total opposite of me. Always in a relationship. Always in love with the next person. I remember a few years ago her spouse had an affair. My sister literally just left and was in love with someone else five minutes later. It's how she moves in the world - but that isn't me. I know you're telling me not to say "that's who I am", but it is. Things matter to me, so I take them seriously. That doesn't mean I am a doormat - WS would tell you he is basically the one jumping to my beat so I tend to kind of "wear the trousers" in relationships, but I love deeply, care a lot and don't move on or give up on people I love easily. I am okay with that meaning I sometimes hurt.

I can appreciate you have been careful about who you attach to, but that doesn’t mean when you do attach it’s a style of attachment that is working for you.

I think it does. This is the only time in my life I have had a painful relationship. All my others (as well as with friends and family) are very calming and rewarding. This is a complete one off. I have had bad relationships before but they were only short because I recognise them quickly and leave.

Please know I am not criticizing you. I don’t even know you. I am telling you this because you do deserve better moving forward, and I think it would be good to do some soul searching to get to the place of being more on your own side than on someone else’s side who hasn’t been in your corner. I know two wrongs don’t make a right, but you don’t have to put away what you want any longer.

Thanks HO. I honestly don't see it as criticism, more counsel and challenge. I am grateful for it.

I am sorry, I didn’t intend to say that being empathetic and caring is wrong by any means. I too am that way and also like this about myself.

But I guess I was leaning more towards, he’s not been on your team and you remain loyally in his. I understand the difference between sometimes being a schmuck and self sacrificing past a point in which you should. It’s certainly your decision to make, but it allows someone like who I was or who your husband is to see you from a mile away. It’s not that I never loved my husband but I definitely have taken advantage of his generous heart in the past.

I tread lightly here because I think it sounds like in another part I am saying that it’s your fault for not protecting yourself. That wasn’t where I was coming from at all. I too take my time with things. I too had false reconciliation. So I don’t think that you are dumb or brought any of it on yourself. (I kind of got that it sounded that way by your explanation)

I think it’s more I see myself in you, and after moving my boundaries around I can see how I betrayed myself to a certain extent. That being said I obviously don’t know you in real life and could be projecting. But boundaries around your own needs is not being unkind or unempathetic. Putting someone else’s needs above yours should be a reciprocal endeavor. I am not talking about in a transactional way either. Not a tit for tat.

Anyway, I can see that in some ways my post sounded a way I didn’t not mean at all. I hope you talk about this in real life with someone who knows you because it’s hard not to project some of our own experience into someone who doesn’t have a face to us.

To be honest, being very empathetic and compassionate towards people is something I like about myself and I don't want to change it. I don't find it dysfunctional - I am slow and careful to let people into my life and don't need their approval in any way. If it makes me a schmuck sometimes, I am okay with living with that, but I don't want being in pain to fundamentally change the parts of me that I like.

I'm very compassionate and empathetic too. And I too worried that that part of me was broken after dday. But the more time that's gone on the more I've found my way back to that. The biggest difference these days is that I give compassion and empathy to MYSELF before giving them to others.

I don't call empathy a dysfunction, but I do think it an easily exploitable trait. My xwh was very broken. He lacked empathy. He didn't know how to deal with emotions. He struggled after dday with taking accountability and dealing with the fallout (any of that sounding familiar?). It was no skin of his nose tho, cus I was there supporting him and listening to his excuses and existing his behaviors myself even.

But that's all those things were, EXCUSES. Because funnily enough he had zero issues finding 'emotional connection' with his AP (which wasn't really real but he sure thought it was). He had no issues exhaustively researching cars when he wanted a new one (that I paid for but that's a whole other worm can I'm just gonna set down). He had no problems empathizing with his sister in law when she was having an ea. He managed all of those things just fine... so why was it when it was me asking for those things it was all of a sudden impossible? And why did I excuse that ridiculousness for as long as I did? I even bought into his let's be friends after we split nonsense for a while, until I realized that my friends, my REAL friends, are all people who don't make me feel like discarded human refuse. I trust my real friends and they reciprocate the effort I put into our relationship because THAT'S what real friends DO.

The point I'm making in a rambly way is that you don't have to lose the compassionate and empathetic part of who you are, you just have to not let it blind you to some bullshit when that's what getting shoveled at you. And above all, you need to be compassionate and empathetic to yourself FIRST. Fill your well to the brim so you can be that for others without depleting yourself.

I am sorry, I didn’t intend to say that being empathetic and caring is wrong by any means. I too am that way and also like this about myself. But I guess I was leaning more towards, he’s not been on your team and you remain loyally in his. I understand the difference between sometimes being a schmuck and self sacrificing past a point in which you should.

Don't worry, I didn't feel like you were saying that - I understand and agree I have been too compassionate. My WS was domestically abused by the AP and that garnered a lot more empathy from me and at times I understand that if you are a naturally selfLESS person in a relationship with a naturally selfISH person that you need to figure boundaries and I have definitely let that go for sure.

It’s certainly your decision to make, but it allows someone like who I was or who your husband is to see you from a mile away. It’s not that I never loved my husband but I definitely have taken advantage of his generous heart in the past.

I can say with certainty that my WS has taken advantage of how loving I am, and that does annoy me, but I think the best thing to do is leave someone doing that rather than change who you are IYSWIM.

I tread lightly here because I think it sounds like in another part I am saying that it’s your fault for not protecting yourself. That wasn’t where I was coming from at all. I too take my time with things. I too had false reconciliation. So I don’t think that you are dumb or brought any of it on yourself. (I kind of got that it sounded that way by your explanation)

I honestly didn't take it that way so don't worry :)

I think it’s more I see myself in you, and after moving my boundaries around I can see how I betrayed myself to a certain extent.

I feel I have done that these last couple of years. I probably need to do some thinking on that but he is a boundary trampler and I have enabled that. Leaving has shocked the hell out of him, that's for sure.

That being said I obviously don’t know you in real life and could be projecting. But boundaries around your own needs is not being unkind or unempathetic.

I get we all project. On this forum, people probably see one dimension of things - which is a pretty unremorseful WS, but there are other dimensions to that. If you spoke to him he would certainly feel that the power dynamic in the relationship was heavily in my favour. It always has been. Not my intention, but I was always that way. I'd prefer it was more equal and if we were together we would need to work on that but it isn't me being a doormat. It is more like a very flawed, very damaged, pretty sick right now person with absolute no tools and a lot of really unhealthy coping mechanisms desperately trying and failing to fix the mess he made.

Anyway, I can see that in some ways my post sounded a way I didn’t not mean at all. I hope you talk about this in real life with someone who knows you because it’s hard not to project some of our own experience into someone who doesn’t have a face to us.

Thanks HO. I think the conversations here are incredibly helpful, and please don't worry about saying certain things. Sometimes you nail it, and when I don't feel it fits who I am, I am able to think about it and learn from it. I really appreciate you :)

EllieKMAS your whole post made me laugh. Definitely some familiar themes there!

The point I'm making in a rambly way is that you don't have to lose the compassionate and empathetic part of who you are, you just have to not let it blind you to some bullshit when that's what getting shoveled at you. And above all, you need to be compassionate and empathetic to yourself FIRST. Fill your well to the brim so you can be that for others without depleting yourself.

This really nails it and I can see that has happened. I think that's what HO and others were also trying to say to me. I think the best of people I love so to be honest I can find it hard at times to not spot the bullshit.

You cannot be a MH because you are single. He bailed, whether or not you are ready to date is up to you, but IMO you are single and free to move on.

As every BS here in Reconciliation I have had plan B since dday2 when I wasn’t certain that WH had what it took to redeem himself.

For divorce/separation not to be so scary plan B needs to sound quite attractive so I’ve built on it through the years financially and personally. I know what I financial situation would be if we divorce, I know where I’d live and so on.

Part of plan B is to join all the hobby groups I can find in my area. So for example I know there’s a 50s dance class in my area and I already have the details of it. There are bike trips groups and running groups and this is also something that I’m into. There is a painting/art group too and I started painting about two years ago.

By the time I would join all the above (some I have already joined but I haven’t got as much time as if I’d be single) my week would be pretty busy. This would give me the opportunity to meet a lot of people and do a lot of fun stuff.

So my suggestion is, if you’re not after a relationship but only after some human company/interaction and some fun times, why don’t you look into whatever interests you have groups in your area?