SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Welcome and sorry you are here.

I expressed to my WW last night already that I need to see her taking initiative.

This is very important. I recently wrote a whole page about it on another thread.

Not only take the initiative, but hopefully you both won’t learn the hard way that SHE MUST LEAD THE REBUILDING EFFORT if there even can be a chance at reconciliation.

She has irrevocably damaged the marriage. You know and have said it. It’s only thru witnessing and evaluating her effort that you can even begin to find a basis on which to build a new relationship with her. I cannot express this enough and so should you with her.

She needs to research what it takes to help your partner heal after her cheating. She has access to the Internet which is a wealth of resources. She is more than capable of figuring this out. Don’t do the work for her.

I often say here, if you have to push and cajole a wayward partner to do the work, then more than likely you will end up reconciling with yourself, not her.

So my recommendation would be to do this: ask her for her rebuilding and healing plan. Tell her it needs to be written down. And tell her you and she will review the first draft of it in one week. You know it won’t be very good. But it’s a start. Yes you can research your list as well and use it to ask questions about hers.

One other thing I have been known to say here: a basis for rebuilding a new relationship, after the old one was destroyed by infidelity, is thru Pride. The BS Having pride in the way the wayward partner behaved and worked after DDay is really the only emotion that can lead to a new marriage.

After all, this work is something that can purely be done for only you and her. It was Never something given to the AP. So if they do it well and effectively it can be something you as the BS can decide if it’s enough to use to start something g new. Never guaranteed, but possible.

I wish you the best of luck going forward.

[This message edited by Stevesn at 6:13 PM, Friday, June 16th]

Skip the couples counseling unless you want to be made into a contributor to the affair, or an ogre for not treating her with proper sensitivity since you found out she was doing some other guy during your health crisis.

I disagree this is what you will find in MC. My MC has 100% said my actions are not to blame for the A, and that my wife needs to make sure that my needs/emotions are prioritized over hers in the beginning of R. Then we can move onto making sure I am meeting what was lacking in the marriage down the road.

Definitely go with a Gottman focused therapist/counselor if you do MC.

My wife is extremely remorseful and it's genuine. The reality is that she has felt guilty internally ever since the affair which also negatively impacted our marriage because she has truly stopped liking herself over the last few years. I've seen it, we've discussed it. But it never made sense to what degree she suffered with self-hate...until now.

Okay, catching up a bit on this one. I feel this is a top 3 reason my wife cheated on me as well with an online affair. Is your wife willing to do IC to work on herself? That was a requirement from me early on, that my wife work on her self esteem, past trauma and need for validation/ego boosting.

Also I do disagree with Hellfire. People can be remorseful and ashamed, but not confess. The fear of losing what you have once the magic of the affair goes away is pretty common for WS that have worked through the cycle. Your wife (mine too) was definitely selfish, detached, and apathetic when they made the decision to cheat. Nothing that happened in your marriage excuses what she did. But they are also human, and humans will protect themselves in moments of extreme stress.

That being said, I think its important for you to make sure your wife feels the full gravity of the situation and makes sure that she is really committed to you. A few things I think might help (which helped me guage how sincere my wife was in R)

1) Get a full written timeline of the affair (my wife lied to me about the timeline of her A 3 times because she didn't want to risk making the sitatuion with us worse. Don't be surprised if yours is doing the same. I didn't get the full timeline until she wrote it out. I am sure there are some details not there but I don't really want to know them unless it involved her having a physical A.) Give her guidelines on the details you need in the timeline (it will vary for everyone based on how much they want to know). Also make her read the timeline out loud to you before she hands it over.

2) Press her on her thoughts during the time she began the affair, and try to learn what excuses she gave herself to cheat. I think its really important to talk about those and make her realize that those excuses are crap so she doesn't hold onto them. If you do MC, you can do this step in one of the sessions

3) When you are feeling moments of anger about being neglected/hurt during a period when you were being cheating on, bring that up with your wife in a respectful, but honest conversation. If her main response is to apologies, then you know that she is at least genuinely remoseful. If she comes back and attacks you in some way or makes her seem like a victim, then she probably isn't ready for R.

4) See if she is willing to read and partake in books about how to help betrayed spouses and build back your relationshhip

5) If you do MC, make sure she pays for it, along with the above books purchased to help repair the R

6) As you think of it, relay what you need from her in the process of R and see if she steps up to meet your needs

7) You should both take a quiz on languages of love to see if there is any misalignment in the way you are expressing love to each other

8) Also take a quiz to see if either of you have attachment disorders (my wife and I both do) and try to work on those

[This message edited by Tav3n at 7:07 PM, Friday, June 16th]

So my recommendation would be to do this: ask her for her rebuilding and healing plan. Tell her it needs to be written down. And tell her you and she will review the first draft of it in one week. You know it won’t be very good. But it’s a start. Yes you can research your list as well and use it to ask questions about hers.

I think this is a bad move. You don't want someone with communication and self esteem issues (along with what other issues that made them cheat) to come up with a plan to rebuild love. I think she should definitely find the MC. But I would leave the rebuilding plan to someone who is more emotionally stable (I guaruntee any WS that has been recently caught is not this) and knowledgable about best practices/identifying root causes of what made the marriage bad and the WS cheat.

[This message edited by Tav3n at 7:21 PM, Friday, June 16th]

The reasons we say no to MC right away,are many. Those of us who have been here for a while(not because we are bitter, or not healed,but because we give back to the community that helped us), is because we have seen some horror stories when it comes to MCs. Some times you luck out. But many want the BS to take equal blame. They don't think transparency is a good idea. They tell the BS to stop asking questions, and the WS to stop answering them. Taking a freshly caught WS to that kind of MC is a disaster. And,if you try a new MC, a good one, the WS will cling to the first MCs approach, because it's easier for them.

It's best that she get a few months of IC first, then MC.

Remorse and regret are two different things. Remorse is about the pain they caused their BS. It's linear. They don't have Remorse, then lose it,then find it again. That's regret. Remorse is about being honest,respecting their BS and their agency. Can't keep it a secret,and do that. There is no anger,and defensiveness with remorse. Their actions,and the work they put in to becoming a safe partner, shows their remorse. Can't do that when they're lying to their spouse,and allowing them to believe they have a faithful partner..even in the years between the affair ending,and dday.

Many BS arrive saying their WS is remorseful. Then,as time passes, they learn the difference, and realize they were regretful. True remorse takes time..because until dday,and they see the pain their actions have caused..and how far reaching the damage is..they can not be fully sorry for their actions. Ask most of the ws here and they will tell you it took awhile for full remorse to set in.

Words mean nothing. Sure, apologies are necessary..But it's actions that indicate remorse.

[This message edited by HellFire at 7:55 PM, Friday, June 16th]

Sorry for the crap sandwich.

So much good advice here on surviving initial impact.

I will go ahead and ask a though question-are you sure on the paternity of your 5 year old?

2023-5=2018.

2018-9 months could be 2017?

If WW is lying by a few months, OM could be the bio dad.

I know it is a shitty thing to ask, as you are reeling, but eventually you will think of it.

Prayers you are not dealing with that, but you need ALL relevant data to decide what to do.

You don't want someone with communication and self esteem issues (along with what other issues that made them cheat) to come up with a plan to rebuild love.

And this is a great example as to why you put off MC for a bit,while the WS does IC for at least a few months.

Working on the issues that allowed her to cheat, her crap communication skills,and her self esteem, are things she needs to work on before working on the marriage. These are things that will help her become a safer partner.

Otherwise..the MC puts together a plan that basically dances around the fragile WS,to make things easier for them,usually at the expense of the BS.

Please understand, trying to nice your wife into the marriage,or doing a pick me dance, will eventually fall apart. The WS must do the hard work,initially. You can't do it for her. She works on herself, you work on yourself, and you RECOVER before you attempt reconciliation.

These are very important steps, if you want a successful reconciliation.

[This message edited by HellFire at 8:06 PM, Friday, June 16th]

Yes, if you’re going to go with early MC, or MC-IC concurrently, vet your MCs carefully.

Tav3n’s MC sounds like the ideal you should strive for. I’ve heard nothing but good things about Gottman influenced counseling.

Be wary of therapists who prioritize saving the marriage at the Betrayed’s expense. Avoid therapists who subscribe to an unmet needs fallacy that places blame for the affair to any degree on the BS. You want a therapist who separates the A from any unmet needs issues. Unmet needs lead to marital discontent, not infidelity, not abuse. Infidelity is born from something all together separate from marital-sexual issues, something deep within the character of the Wayward that needs intervention and, if swept under the rug, if neglected, will lay dormant only to reemerge when life stressors and opportunity again come in to perfect alignment.

A good MC compliments-augments the efforts of a good IC who’s job it is to mine deep down to the fundamental underpinnings of what caused your WW to resort to infidelity-of all things, rather than a more rational, loving, nurturing path towards problem resolution and marital maintenance.

Otherwise..the MC puts together a plan that basically dances around the fragile WS,to make things easier for them,usually at the expense of the BS.

Again I haven't had this experience at all in the 4 MC sessions we've had. I don't doubt some MCs do this, but if you vet the therapists properly in the counciltation call you shouldn't run into this sitaution.

My MC is Gottman trained and I did the research before choosing her. Gottman is the most scientifically proven plan for R success and based on clincial research around how couples fall apart. Which is important for me, because I am a very logical person and the steps along the way need to make sense

I agree with Hellfire and others that now is not the best time for MC. My wife has serious FOO issues, pretty much all the major red flags wrt FOO, but won’t go to IC on my asking her to. She instantly agreed to go to MC when I offered though. Based on a prior attempt at MC years ago I think she saw it as an opportunity to air her gripes, hurts and justifications about me to a somewhat sympathetic ear.

So I find one, Gottman trained and about our age (over 50… I didn’t want some kid unfamiliar with MLC’s, menopause, empty-nesting, adult children, imminent retirement, and other such age appropriate issues applying Millennial thinking to our situation). We go, and it’s generally positive, but as others have said MC is about the counselor not taking sides, focusing on communication and intimacy, and reconnecting; not deep seated personal issues. After several sessions when I tried to get into discussing FOO issues, hoping he would at least recommend to her that she seek IC for them, he said "not unless we look at yours first", which I would’ve been glad to do. I’m an only child and I know I have issues with my mom, whom I love and often detest at the same time. But then time ran out and when we came back for our next sessions I couldn’t ever steer the convo in that direction despite how serious I feel the FOO issues are with us.

So I think you need to wait on MC, probably until after she and you have both gone to separate IC’s for several months and you’ve at least begun leaning towards R. Then find an MC that is not either one of your IC counselors. And like I did, seek one out that’s age appropriate. I would also endorse one Gottman trained as well.

On a side note, what led to your heart valve issue, which one was replaced and how has that gone for you? My dad had his mitral valve replaced with a ball and cage artificial valve in 1972 from damage caused by rheumatic fever he got when he was in combat in the Korean War. 10 years later he had his aortic valve replaced with a rotating disc artificial valve as well. It was funny because you could hear them clicking if you got near him and I could always tell when I was getting to him as a child because the clicking would get louder and faster. Although they told him with blood thinner medications his long term prognosis was very good, he was killed in a work related accident in 1987 so we never got to find out. I do know the meds complicated even relatively simple medical procedures afterwards though.

I’m very sorry you’re here, but do know you have concerned and sympathetic ears here for you. And prayers for what you’re going through, both medically and emotionally.

Again I haven't had this experience at all in the 4 MC sessions we've had.

Not all MCs are the same.

Respectfully, and very gently, your dday was a few weeks ago. 4 MC sessions means you're extremely new to MC.

I've been here for years. There's a reason we give the advice we give. You don't know what you don't know.

Hopefully you will have a good experience with MC.

We disagree, we've given our reasons why,so OP can decide for himself. Let's let him do that.

I agree with HellFire here:

Otherwise..the MC puts together a plan that basically dances around the fragile WS,to make things easier for them,usually at the expense of the BS.

MC too early almost derailed my entire Recovery effort. Our MC was Gottman trained. She took every opportunity to make "excuses" for my WW (she cheated because she was young and scared. No, this went on for 20 years/she lies when "backed into a corner". No, she lies when she opens her mouth). 4 weeks after D-Day 1 and in the middle of a 3 day D-Day 2 (while WW was still outright lying), MC told me I "have all the info I’m going to get about the affairs and if I can’t accept that, I may need IC". I wound up bailing out and MC became WW’s IC until she realized she "needed someone who would hold her accountable". What a Cluster….

Gonna add to the dog pile. It’s way too early to make any calls about anything from counseling to D. You are still in the shock stage. Everything you do for now is to look after your well being. You owe that to yourself and the kids.

Number one. Get with your MD. If you have blood pressure issues there are strategies for you. If you can’t sleep, get help. There are stories on here about guys collapsing and being hospitalized after trying to deal with stress

Number two. Eat and drink water. Try to exercise.

Three. Take time away doing whatever, whether it’s taking a walk or going fishing. Some alone time is good.

Four. Keep talking to friends.

Five. Do what you want, not what she wants. If that means watching the complete Stooges shorts, do it.

Six. Be careful around the kids. You get it.

Seven, read everything on here in the healing library and the I can relate forum.

Eight, understand that you will be up and down for a long while. That is normal.

Nine. Do not take anything the wife says as gospel.

You will get to where you can start looking at strategic things later. Right now it’s all tactical self help.

At the very least our OP has a lot of varying ideas to consider and decide what is right for him and his family.

Wow, this board has been incredible. It was a rough night but it led somewhere. I'm not going to cut and paste everything, please know I read and processed each response though. I am going to go the IC for my WW and I route and also MC. I'm being very careful with MCs because of everything being discussed. I know we'll end up talking about various issues within the marriage, because my WW and I had some legitimate issues, but if the MC even BREATHS that this affair is in ANY way my fault.....we're done on the spot. My WW and I have already had the discussion that there was 100 other things that she could've done to not end up in an affair.

In regards to my daughter being mine. I'm 99.9% sure she's mine, but I'm still getting a DNA test done. My WW is all "I KNOW she's yours" blah blah....and lists all these reasons why....But she's also not fighting the test in any way....her reaction was more like a reassurance..."Okay, we'll do what you need, but I know she's yours" type of thing.

So worse than that though is, when we sat down Thursday morning I told her "I need honesty in your answers...if you lie...we can't move forward"....and guess what...she lied about some details. (Using a condom every time & not in our house). So I truly don't know if this can be saved any more...But I made a commitment to myself that I'm giving it 2 months with no decision.

I'm working out more, which has been good.

Confortablynumb - On a side note, what led to your heart valve issue, which one was replaced and how has that gone for you? My dad had his mitral valve replaced with a ball and cage artificial valve in 1972 from damage caused by rheumatic fever he got when he was in combat in the Korean War. 10 years later he had his aortic valve replaced with a rotating disc artificial valve as well. It was funny because you could hear them clicking if you got near him and I could always tell when I was getting to him as a child because the clicking would get louder and faster. grin Although they told him with blood thinner medications his long term prognosis was very good, he was killed in a work related accident in 1987 so we never got to find out. I do know the meds complicated even relatively simple medical procedures afterwards though.

Sorry about your Dad, sudden death is hard. So "Funny" story. Back in 2016 - early 2017. I was going to the Gym to try and get healthy. Hired a personal trainer. First session with the trainer, I got rhabdomyolysis...BADLY...to put it in perspective....You're body is in Rhabdo at 2000 creatine kinase in your blood stream. Highly strenuous exercizing can put you at levels of 1000-5000 (think of a marathon runner). Well, I was at 72,000...so I was put into the hospital. The only solution is to pump you with fluids and flush it out of your system or you could die from renal failure. While in the hospital for 4 days, my blood pressure spike due to being on 100ml of a saline solution so they put me in the cardiac unit....which SOP is to do an echo and they found I had a bicuspid aortic valve. It had to be replaced in 2020, JUST before COVID, and yes with a mechanical valve that you can hear ticking.

Her lying isn't surprising. Cheaters always lie about using condoms and bringing APs to their homes. Another popular lie is length of their affair. It's highly possible her affair duration was beyond a year. Ask her to write down the timeline of her affair. And then tell her to take polygraph to verify her timeline.

It's possible there were more than one affair.

It's also possible that this affair was more sexual/physical than emotional.

Has she been in contact with her AP until dday?

Is she still in contact with her AP?

Who initiated the end of this affair? And, why?

Has their been attempts to restart this affair? If yes, then by whom?

You need find as much truth as possible to try reconciliation if you want to reconcile.

Also, is her AP married? If yes, then you should inform OBS about this affair. Don't avoid this. It's moral and ethical thing to do.

Please take care your health. Keep a check on your stress level. Meditation could help you. Proper diet and sufficient water intake should not be neglected. Proper and timely sleep is also very crucial. I know your heart is broken now but still take care of it. It can heal and recover.

[This message edited by Lurkingsoul12 at 8:12 PM, Saturday, June 17th]

HurtHusband

You are doing the right things. Focus on you. You both should be talking to individual therapists. MC now is your choice but as you said, be wary of victim blaming.

I do want to address what I wrote on the top of the 2nd page. I still stand by it.

Yes a distraught WS will have trouble thinking straight. They will be inward focused by nature. But if there is going to be a chance at R, That will have to change. Hopefully IC will help make that happen.

But if I were in your shoes, I’d let her know that I expect her to lead the work. That I was in no way going to do it for her, and until I see that coming from her thru her actions and words, I’m going to focus on me and my healing and preparing for a possible/probable life without her.

In your first post you said:

My wife, to her credit, hasn't played the typical cheater's handbook game. There's been no gaslighting, she's been honest in her answers to her questions, and has taken responsibility for her actions.

And that is good. But it also shows she is a capable cheating partner who is aware of what she has done. She is no wilting flower. You should not have to hand hold her through this process and you should make her aware you are not going to.

Regretting her actions and feeling bad for herself because of what she has done does not in any way mean she cannot use a computer to research how to repair the damage she has done.

In no way did I imply she would be doing this rebuilding process on her own. She will need a willing and capable partner in you to make it happen if that is what you decide you want.

As you read in my first post, I said she should bring you a DRAFT recovery plan, not a final one. This will definitely be a collaborative process. But she needs to initiate if this reconciliation process is going to have a chance to be successful.

Overall likelihood that your marriage is over is greater than the chance that it is not. But if it is at all possible, she needs to show that she truly wants it by putting in the maximum effort possible. As I said last time, if you are the one pushing and cajoling to make it happen, then you’ll only end up reconciling with yourself and that will make for an empty relationship going forward.

[This message edited by Stevesn at 3:57 PM, Saturday, June 17th]

As Lurkingsoul and others have said, get that detailed timeline that shows the genesis, evolution and demise of the A. You want to get your arms around the whole enchilada so that you know exactly what you’re attempting to reconcile, to understand and eventually forgive. In high risk investing terms: this is the due diligence required so that you can make more informed decisions going forward. The best prospectus you can get your hands on before making the biggest gamble, investment of your life, an investment of precious fleeting time, money, and the unquantifiable emotional expense you’re about to make. You’re entitled to full disclosure. Don’t hesitate to pull all the stops, including a polygraph, if necessary.

It’s too soon to identify true remorse. True remorse is measured in consistent actions over time. My WW came out of the gate with all R guns firing. Tears and snot greasing the linoleum I drug her across, hanging on to my ankles, as I was storming out the door. She bought the books, she got herself into IC, she journaled, full transparency, disclosure-the works, but it was all Fast Twitch Sprint muscle fiber, not the Slow Twitch endurance response that’s required. R is a marathon and false remorse can’t keep up the act for long before it starts to crap out. Signs of remorse crap-out can come in the forms of resentment, annoyance, impatience, laziness-inaction, failure to progress in IC or wallowing. Wallowing in self pity and victimization, despair, and self sabotaging hopelessness.

The commonalities I’ve noticed around here of truly successful reconcilers is that they are continuously improving their approach, they have setbacks-like anyone, but they reassess, get back on their feet, learn from their mistakes and re-engage with determination.

Another commonality is that they have the ability to boldly and honestly self assess, intelligently and with humility, and they’re able to talk about very personal uncomfortable truths with strong emotional intimacy.

[This message edited by RealityBlows at 7:58 PM, Saturday, June 17th]

Many ws won't bring the AP to the marital home.

It's a complete desecration of the family home.

They can't claim compartmentalization when they bring the ap into the house.

It's a complete disrespect, disregard for the BS, and the kids.

I'm so sorry.

Have you called his wife?

As for Hellfire above 👆

One day at a time.