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Just want to say I hope you are hanging in there. It can be a super bumpy road as a BS. We are here for you when you need it.

I read his post. You are making the right call, for yourself AND your kids. He is a master manipulator.

Your husband didnt just by chance have an affair. He planned and planned, and planned some more. He's smart enough to cover his tracks, and you should ask for at the very minimum a lie detector test and ask all you need to make a good decision. Its obvious he researched the correct methods to hide his cheating, by using cash, and apps that don't save their messages and are encrypted. That tells you that he didn't just by chance end up in an affair, he has been planning this for awhile.

I'd also ask him when you get a chance if he has ever done this before or in other ways.

He throws up red flags with his behavior, and calling the cops on you....I'm not sure about that. Yes, DV is DV, would you have called the cops on him if things were turned around?

I think you keep watching and see how he behaves going forward and he should know that he is under the microscope going forward. Trust is not easily returned after something like this.

I would also burn that bridge down with that other lady once your husband leaves his current job. Share everything you know with her husband.

Kudos to you for going to therapy. It sucks to be in this club but we are not the people who put us here. Take care of yourself and continue to be a strong woman and mother for your children. It will either work out or not. Either way, you will still be standing on your own two feet.

I have been nothing but open to Ap’s bs. However I am now realizing that while I shared timeline and information with him, he did not share additional information he came about which we had agreed upon to share. If you recall, I saved ap’s bs from tt that wh and ap had subjected him to. He is in constant touch with WS and both of them have confessed to hiding additional info from me while I have been begging for complete honesty. Don’t know if my wh convinced him to not tell me more info or they decided together. Now ap and her bs refuse to give me their version of timeline and gifts my wh gave her. I am so angry that I want to post ap and my wh pics ( some of them are ap flashing) to expose them as decent people beware at some social site. Can I do it?

I am hurting so much with constantly catching my wh in lies. Now he is blameshifting that he wants to not hurt me that is why he keeps lying about details or he forgets or he does not feel safe sharing as I get upset (he has gaslit it to " my explosions") Every week I find out more details, more gifts, more encounters between the two. But I am smart enough now to physically separate myself and doing it through emails and phones so he can not manipulate me into the first d day situation where he called the cops on me. On the downside he has managed to capture my anger, frustration in texts and emails. Now he wants to have a joint session with my therapist or our therapists but I have refused it. I am offering to sit in front of his therapist to hear the complete truth. But I still believe that he is up to some trick that I don’t understand yet. Thoughts?

I threw wh out on Monday night as he broke the agreement of complete truth after falsifying the revised timeline once again. and have spelled out three conditions for him to come back into our home 1) get a new job ( he has not applied to a single job so far except one where I am trying so hard to get him in my company) 2) recover all his wa and telegram messages he deleted 3) become an honest person

He has promised to do #1. Says #2 is unattainable ( is it?) and I don’t know how to measure #3 as he keeps choosing actions that further prove his lying, scheming and manipulations to a deeper level. I am subjected to a new d day nearly every time I ask specific questions on a weekly basis in past six weeks. He has claimed to have read books, going to IC but I don’t see real change. He remains apathetic, uncommitted to asking how I am doing or listening to my hurt. Often he walks away or switches topics. When confronted he says he does not know how to deal with emotions and does not understand or have empathy. Claims that he has asked his therapist about it. If you venture to the other side, you will see that he is the fastest recovering ww on this board but is super manipulative about slyly blame shifting on me. I am convinced that he is similarly manipulating his therapist.

So despite reading books and claiming to have a better understanding, he is

1) not yet fully forthcoming for various reasons on his Affair
2) has done nothing actively to look for another job ( it never even occurred to him -,hmm)
3) not helping me heal. In fact he gas lights me so well just like he did on the other forum where he takes responsibility but under current is always a deficiency in me. Emotionally stunted to me
4) my hypothesis is he is presenting himself to be emotionally stunted and paralyzed in light of my emotions and hurt incapable of making the right choices and actions

I am 100% certain that until my conditions are met, I am not allowing him back in our home. He had it pretty good- keeping his job, keeping his image in front of family and friends and getting his life back to normal. But he could not change and become a better person or stop lying. I don’t have any hope but my hurt and waves of sadness, anger and numbness keeps intensifying through his actions. How do I protect myself from this monster?

You protect yourself by sticking to the 180. Go NC as much as possible. Until and unless he meets your demands, you will only talk to him about the kids and separation. If all he does is lie and hurt you when you ask questions, as tempting as it is, you have to stop asking until he proves to you that he will answer truthfully.

You can also protect yourself by seeing a lawyer and making the separation legally official. Ask about whether there are benefits or not to filing for D or sticking with S. D isn't going to happen quickly so even if it's better for you to file now, you can change your mind and withdraw it before it's final if he finally comes around.

Now ap and her bs refuse to give me their version of timeline and gifts my wh gave her. I am so angry that I want to post ap and my wh pics ( some of them are ap flashing) to expose them as decent people beware at some social site. Can I do it?

Nope, particularly not if there's any nudity. You would open yourself up to revenge-porn charges. Your best bet, no matter how angry you are, is to pretend like those two people fell off the edge of the world and never see, speak, text, or email with either of them.

But I am smart enough now to physically separate myself and doing it through emails and phones so he can not manipulate me into the first d day situation where he called the cops on me. On the downside he has managed to capture my anger, frustration in texts and emails.

I agree with Neconamida... protect yourself, first and foremost. Stop interacting with him, see an attorney, get your separation legally validated. What you've posted above sounds like he's trying to set you up. I'd check out wiretapping laws in my jurisdiction and even if I had to make a loud announcement about making a recording, I'd keep a VAR on my person and record everything. Because of what you've posted above, I don't see how you could ever trust him.

In terms of him being forthcoming about old messages and gifts or whatever, I honestly don't think it's possible to know everything. I do remember how frantic and obsessive I felt back then. I spent hours and hours going through all my WH's shit trying to fill in the story of what had happened. It's completely NORMAL to feel that way. You don't need all those details to make your decisions though. You already know enough to divorce the guy if you don't feel that he's capable of being honest with you. I'm in R because my WH started being HONEST with me. IOW, your WH isn't a candidate for R until you start believing what he tells you. So, if he wants R, he needs to make that happen. He needs to show you whatever you need to see and he needs to BE HONEST enough that you will know in your heart that you're hearing TRUTH. If he's saving your messages to prove that you're angry, he's not sincere, not honest.

I am yet again so exhausted. Every time I believe that I am recovering, my ws keeps stabbing me once again.
The latest is that he has moved out so my children and I can have some peace over the last two weeks but of course he can’t stop the manipulative and reverse victim behavior. As per my therapist, I am ignoring his crap and focusing on stabilizing my kids. On Saturday morning, I was talking to a friend about this weird coincidence of him figuring out where I was and what I am up to and she suggested that I changed my password on the phone and Apple cloud and check how many devices I was logged on. He knew that I had stopped sharing my location with him on Life360. Lo and behold, I discover that I am logged on several of his devices and my old iPhone X. I texted and point blank asked him if he had cloned my active phone and was tracking and key logging me. He denied it. I ask him about why he took my old iPhone X away from home. He makes up some excuse about it being in his car by mistake. I ask him to return it next day. Guess what, I get an email within an hour from Apple about OS upgrade and activation from that phone. the phone that he never have supposed to touch is now on the latest OS and is backed up to 8/21 when I switched my device and it is downloading and refreshing all the apps.

My husband is deeply manipulative and a world class liar. I keep begging him to build trust and be honest but this is what he did. Instead of coming clean once again on how he took the phone from home, used it to keep track of my activities and perhaps put a spyware on all my devices as he knew my Apple cloud password, he formatted the other phone and backed it to the last backup.
Am I wrong about his sinister behavior as I can’t find any truth or goodness in this piece of shit man and every action he seems to take is all about covering his tracks and his lies at every step.I am fully aware that I may be getting tracked everywhere right not but he is the liar, manipulator and cheat not me.

I am so sorry for you. You are dealing with soooo much right now it is hard to know where to begin.

First I think you need to stop begging your H (and/or hoping) to be honest and truthful. Once you accept or attempt to accept his choice is to lie, you will have a bit of peace. Not that future lies won’t still upset you but that you will have expected him to lie and just be better at accepting it over time.

I think you made the right decision about meeting with his counselor.

It is possible you are witnessing a person who doesn’t know what to do because he has lost control. He cannot live with you but yet continue yes to make the same idiotic choices. It is clear to a child what he SHOULD do, but yet he can’t or don’t do that one thing - STOP LYING,

So he keeps digging the hole deeper and deeper. Because he still wants to control you and the situation. And now he can’t and he doesn’t know how to handle it. Sadly he’s not getting much from his therapist or he’s choosing not to listen. But then again I’m certain the therapist knows very little — and is also being manipulated by him.

Regarding your future - your peace of mind is of the utmost importance. Your healing is your first priority. He cannot help you heal so you must do that on yourself own unfortunately.

Maybe complete no contact with him is your best option. Except for $ and kids you don’t answer a text or call or anything.

As far as getting him a job in your company I would not advise that. He’s a reflection of you. So if (or when) he lies, that is a reflection on you.

If (or when) he cheats with another employee, how will you handle that? If you think he won’t do it at your place of employment then you are putting too much faith in him. He’s not shown you one shred of evidence he can be trusted. He puts HIS needs or wants first (as evidenced by his choices).

Plus if you D do you want to work with him? I don’t care how big the company is, it’s not big enough to work with a potential XH.

Just my two cents. I hope he gets his act together soon b/c he is running out of time.

And just know master manipulators don’t like losing control of situations.

Oh Lost - I'm so sorry to hear about all of this.

TBH, I'm reluctant to post much, as you WH has been on SI, knows you've been here, and may be reading this thread. Unfortunately, I cannot PM you bc you don't yet have 50 posts.

Am I wrong about his sinister behavior

TBH, who knows. Sounds like you have good evidence of some sneaky stuff that IMHO goes beyond "typical" (whatever that is ) wayward thinking/behavior.

I could be off base here, and if so, I apologize... but I did spent a LOT of years in the divorce world.

First and foremost - I think it would be wise to see an attorney IMMEDIATELY. If he is downloading software and using your login on other devices to track you, it is STALKING, so the question for a local attorney is what are the laws in your area about spousal stalking / data privacy. You could also contact the local police, but they tend to not want to get involved (esp if he called them on you before... which did not bode well at the time and looks even worse in light of your post today).

I know it's a big step, but if possible, you may want to consider getting an order of protection - first & foremost bc the tech crap you describe IS escalation / controlling behavior that is NOT healthy/normal, and second bc it shows you mean business and WILL protect yourself and your children. Some states will also make allowances for the financials (maintenance / child support) and custody agreements as part of an order of protection (IOW, depending on the laws in your area, it MAY be a way to get some preliminary financial/custody parameters set w/o having to file for D.... so you don't have to file for D, but you ARE taking solid steps to protect yourself right now. Again, this varies a lot from state to state, so what works in my state may be VERY different from yours).

I'm not tech savvy enough about the logins/passwords... it may not matter but I would probably try to use another computer (e.g. at my local library) to access my Apple account and change the passwords, etc. I'd probably get a new gmail account as well and use that as the login. I may consider changing banking or other passwords, but may want to talk to an attorney before doing that (again, each state is different). IMO the updating the other phone with YOUR apple ID is a big big no-no, esp after you asked him to return the device he used to download YOUR data (IOW, any "consent" you may have given prior was rescinded when you confronted and asked him to return the other device). You may want to contact Apple about it as well (tho I have no clue what, if anything, they would/could do on their end). It would be a lot of time/work/energy, but if it were me, I'd probably backup the phone, then factory reset and start completely from scratch (ie would NOT restore from backup that may have spyware on it). I believe there are programs that can help to backup/reinstall only specific components (e.g., your contacts - I have my iphone set up to use contacts & calendar set up in Google, bc it's a lot easier to xfer data from one google ac to another than it is to do via IOS).

If you don't already have one, may want to consider opening a credit card in your name alone - it is, unfortunately, VERY common for estranged spouses to cut off access to credit / debit cards (in my area, this is met with STRONG consequences by a judge, but the kind of person who will cut off credit/debit to a spouse and their own kids isn't thinking much about consequences or believes they'll be able to talk their way out of it, a tactic I never once saw work during the years I was in the divorce biz).

The other thing is to document, document, document. Whether there may still be a path to R or not, right now you must protect yourself and your kids as if you will D. Only communicate with him in writing, and then screenshot/print/save EVERYTHING - ideally with a copy saved with a friend/relative you trust.

All of this includes the 180. No more talking about the infidelity or the M. Limit it to kids and finances for awhile. You can ALWAYS re-evaluate where you are / what you want / what you see in him changing (or not). IMO, the stalking is like throwing down a gauntlet that kind of shifts all the perspective.

just my $0.02.

Sending mojo to you. Dealing with trauma and trying to heal from infidelity, in and of itself, is already hard as F. Adding a WS who is engaging in some very sketchy / harmful behaviors adds a whole other level to "hard".

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's a duck.

Everything your WH is doing is showing you the type of person he is. Words are meaningless, ACTIONS tell you the truth.

Have you spoken to an attorney? If not, you should. You have no reason to believe your WH will change, and unless you are willing to rugsweep, this will likely end in D. You should start to prepare yourself for that.

I would also suggest you start the 180. Disconnect from your WH. If he ever starts to show you he is changing, you can then decide what you want to do. In the meantime, it will help you to see things more logically and help to minimize the emotional conflict.

My husband is deeply manipulative and a world class liar.

This is your truth. Your WH has had ample opportunity to change it, but again and again, he confirms it instead. I honestly don't know what's up with that. He might be a card-carrying narcissist who simply can't stand losing control of the narrative and the family dynamic. OTOH, this kind of panicked manipulation can indicate fear of abandonment and deep-seated insecurities. So, I can't tell you if he's some machiavellian bad guy or not. What I can say, based on my own experience, is that R has no chance until you've got HONESTY. Whatever his malfunction is, the bottom line is that he's got to start being honest. Every day. In all things. That's the only way forward.

So I asked him point blank yesterday why he charged the phone. He did not have a satisfactory answer but he swears up and down that he never tried to track me and offered to clone his phone on an iPad so I can see what he is up to.
I don’t have the mental energy to deal with tracking his activities tracking me between my job, my kids and my trauma. So I appreciated the offer but can’t handle that. On my end, I am upto nothing but work, kids activities, community service and my IC so I don’t know what anyone can accomplish with key logging or tracing me. Whatever I have to say and do, I am pretty straight and been my whole life. So there is some advantage to leading an integrity-led authentic life.
I can spend the time battling him and proving it one way or other but stress and disoriented state it caused me is just not worth it. Am I trying to prove that he is still a liar. We already know that.

So focusing back on me and my mental health and my kids. Plus I am looking forward to my only time off with the boys next week for this year. He is not coming with us by design and it is a cruise so no work, no emails and cut off from the world will do me a lot of good.

Everyone here including my therapist keep saying- focus on you, not on infidelity or marriage and let time decide it. He knows that he alone can fix this by completing the conditions and I have till March to gauge progress. He is not going to become honest, humble, and have a new job overnight. So as painful and unbearable it is, got to go back to me as a person and children. Easier said than done and I am grateful for this community. Thank you and hugs. I won’t wish this experience on even an enemy. I never have felt so spiraled in my life before.

Forgot to add that I have an attorney who did my post-nup and I have been in enough work related lawsuits to know that it is better to divide everything in the middle and walk away after 17 yrs of marriage ( I don’t believe that I should either in custody or in assets given our ratio of take home and work plus what he put us through) but only lawyers will get rich by fighting.) I have offered it to him that he can download the form and I will sign it any day he wants.
I have access to our finances, taxes and frankly after what happened to us in the past two months, any amount of money pales as a compensation to what my life has become.

LID, I'd like to weigh in on the technical aspect of what he may be doing. If he has your log-in account and password for Apple/iCloud, he can use the "Find My Phone" feature online to see where you are. He does not need access to your phone to do this. He does not need to install a keylogger. You need to change all of your passwords immediately to something that he would not be able to guess if you have not already.

About the old phone - in order for a phone to update, it needs to connect to a network. So either it needs to be active on your phone plan OR be connected to the internet. The ONLY way it could have updated in his possession away from your house and home Wifi is if he turned it on and connected it to the Wifi where he was staying himself. That means looking for the network and inputing the password given to him by the hotel/motel/B&B/friend or family member. It is an INTENTIONAL action meaning if he says he plugged it in and it "just happened", he's lying. What he could have done before this is check your phone and what you had been up to recently on it before you deactivated it and look through old messages/pictures. He most likely did that before connecting it to the internet and then decided to connect it in order to get into your other app and social media accounts that may auto-login on it.

I know that you want to brush this off as more of his drama but this is very concerning behavior. This is stalking. This is an attempt to dig up dirt on you to use against you. There is no good reason for him to do this that isn't one at YOUR expense. It may not be wise to wait around and give him more opportunities to keep checking up on you. And the real question is, now that you KNOW he will keep lying, now that you KNOW that he will stoop this low just to reclaim any shred of reputation, now that you KNOW he puts himself first and doesn't care if you get hurt in the crossfire, why would you want to continue a marriage with him? What could he possibly do to "make up" for this? I'm not asking that to shame you but because I'm genuinely curious where you see this going and what miracles you believe he could pull off after this to prove himself to you that would justify putting yourself and children in further danger of continuing and/or escalating unsafe behavior from him.

Things to consider:

- Change your phone plan so that he does not have access to it. Don't put his name on the account. Get a cheap phone with a pay-as-you-go service even temporarily so that he can't keep tracking you. If his name is on the account, he can call customer service and come up with all sorts of lies to convince them to give him access to your phone remotely. Make it so that he can't possibly get access to it without physically holding it and hide all the account information somewhere safe.
- Talk to a local advocate for domestic violence and understand what criteria is needed for an order of protection/restraining order in case he continues or escalates. You may have enough if you want to pursue this but you also may not. That depends on the laws and general practices of your local government. Get informed.
- Talk to a lawyer and see what D would look like if you need to file. You don't have to do it right away if you don't want to but you will want this information regardless of if you wind up filing tomorrow, 2 weeks from now, 2 months from now, or 2 years from now. It will always be in your back pocket as a safety net.

So focusing back on me and my mental health and my kids. Plus I am looking forward to my only time off with the boys next week for this year. He is not coming with us by design and it is a cruise so no work, no emails and cut off from the world will do me a lot of good.

If you're leaving on a cruise next week, that might explain the spying. It's not a rare phenomenon to see cheaters projecting their own unfaithful mindset onto their unsuspecting BS. IOW, sometimes the WS gets super concerned that his BS is cheating or about to cheat. From his POV, anyone might cheat. It happened to him, so why not? Worse, he's given you reason to get even. Not saying this has to be the explanation, but we do see it fairly often.

If this is what's happening, it's NOT A GOOD SIGN. It means that he's not looking inside for answers yet. He's still thinking that his character is typical, that life is full of shades of gray, that splendid people cheat, that it could happen to anyone, etc. etc. When a WS is actually doing the work, they stop lying.. and not only to the BS, but to themselves.

Cheating is about character. It's about integrity and what you do when no one else is watching. It's about honoring your values system and building boundaries around the beliefs you hold dear. Your core values are NOT subjective, not shades of gray or dependent on the actions of others. If your WS is projecting his propensity for cheating at you... he's NOT engaged with this kind of thinking yet.

IMHO, this tells us nothing about whether or not his underlying condition is malignant. I think that's still a waiting game. Time tells the story on that, you're right.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 7:54 PM, Tuesday, November 16th]

Lost - I'm sorry to hear you have been put into this situation. With the behavior you are describing, I'd consider having a trusted friend or relative, that knows about the situation, that is strong-willed and firm, to house-sit while you are gone. So that he doesn't pull any stunts inside while you are away if he still has access to your home.

I agree that dividing everything, including custody is better.
I agree that fighting just gives $$ to attorneys.

Where I MAY differ (bc I can't read your mind) is that what your WH has been doing could be building his own case (and I agree 100% with Neko about the impossibility of the phone downloading "just happening" w/o someone taking affirmative action AND EarlyDetour's suggestion to have a trusted friend/relative stay in your home during your absence). You would not - by a LONG shot - be the first BS whose WS becomes something (or someone) unrecognizable, and is completely blindsided by it. In the early time after dday, it's hard enough for many BS to even wrap their head around what their WS has done. It took me a LONG time to really see and accept the MANY flaws my WH possesses (including the old manipulation). I think it's even harder when the WS is considered to be such a "nice" guy/gal, and the BS is already questioning so much about themselves, their M, the WS, and their very reality.

My goal/point isn't to freak you out or say that bc WS is doing X, then Y is inevitable. Rather, your WH is doing some super shady stuff and protecting yourself, w/o asking him jack about anything other than the bare necessities, becomes important (in my opinion AND experience). IOW, you don't need to ask him about the phone - his ACTIONS are telling you more than I suspect you can take in (which is common and understandable). You sound exhausted by everything - also completely understandable.

I'm very excited for you on a cruise. Such an excellent opportunity to get some physical and emotional distance from it all, and (bonsu!) some time with your kiddos. I really hope it helps you with whatever your heart and soul need right now.

Godspeed.