SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

"Man-babies" can't cheat unless there are women for them to cheat with.

You have no idea how incredibly dispiriting it is for men like me and others to realize that acting like an asshole with women works. It effectively goes against my very nature and everything I believe in deep down. Yet, in 2019, for too many men, it's a sad truth.

It works really well with stupid women, and you likely don't want them anyway.

Caveat...we've all been with assholes. We didn't all realize that they were assholes at the time because they were lying assholes, but most of us figure the players out pretty quickly and move on.

So it works, but it stops working on the wisest of us when we're still young. The cheaters some of us wound up with were better at lying than the average player.

[This message edited by DevastatedDee at 9:26 AM, August 21st (Wednesday)]

We’ve seen betrayed women describing something similar, a feeling of having their femininity nullified, “effemulated” if you will.

However, I have noted a distinct pattern to the actual items that are enumerated by betrayed spouses. Betrayed wives tend to talk about characteristics of the AP, and/or the A, that suggest their WH enjoyed sex with the AP more than with the BW. The AP was younger, prettier, bigger/firmer boobs, higher ass, etc. Or, she was sexually aggressive, or did sexual stuff to/for the WH that the BW had not done.

It's not just as simple as "she was younger" and such. The feeling of being middle-aged and having your spouse cheat on you with young women is deeper than her boobs or ass. It's a nullifying of you as a person. It's a reflection of what society does to women as they age. When your spouse, whom you believed loved you fully and accepted that you would age and not be as pretty as you were when you were 20, rejects your middle-aged self for 20-year-olds, that destroys your self-image as a sexual being.

Had I stayed with my WH, I would never have wasted my time with lingerie again. I put my sexiest lingerie on one time after DDay and wound up ripping it off and throwing it in the trash because why fucking bother? He'd seen young whores in better lingerie than my old ass. I probably looked like a joke to him when I wore it while he was cheating. That's what it does to women. A year prior, I felt like a goddess in that lingerie. Thought I looked like one too. Maybe one day I'll wear lingerie again, but I can't say that I'm eager to do so. He kind of ruined that for me for the time being. That asshole got me where it hurts. I used to be very confident in the sexual arena.

It's not the same as emasculation, I'm sure, but it's still the root feeling of nullifying you as a sexual being.

DevestatedDee,

My ex is not stupid. A bad person, but not stupid. She knew what she was doing.

It's the same with all cheaters. They cheat for crass and selfish reasons. But intelligence helps in their conniving.

A woman who cheats is being just as crass and selfish as a man who cheats. They have the same base motivations. Many of them here cheat with the cads and players. Of course, those are the ones who come on to them, because they don't care about the WW's marriages or their own. And yes, their lines work. They don't work until they do work. These are the same guys that these previously faithful women were turning down, until the day comes when they don't.

No different than a man looking at some woman saying "I'd like to tap that" and doing something about it. The men and women are from the same ilk. Doesn't matter if it's a man getting hard from some cleavage he sees, or a woman getting the tingles from some canned lines said by some player.

On the receiving end, I am sure faithful women feel diminished as well as men by the actions of cheaters.

Interesting thread with some really good context. I can only imagine the pain a middle aged BW must feel upon being betrayed. Reading DevastatedDee’s story about lingerie made my heart ache. I don’t understand women or men who do these things to other human beings.

I saw the manosphere mentioned. Probably a lot of BH’s have been down that rabbit hole. There are definitely some hard truths there mixed in with a lot of misogyny and juvenile nonsense.

Where I think “red pill” hits the mark is in identifying some fairly startling commonalities across human male-female relationships and how things like hypergamy, provisioning, withholding sexual best etc. can play into those relationships.

Where I think it completely misses the mark as a “predictive model” is in being reductionist and treating complex, ensouled women and men as if they are simply evolutionary robots preprogrammed to carry out certain A/B binary roles. And it lets both women and men off the hook for personal responsibility and moral decision making.

After I caught my XWW cheating the first time, I was in emasculation hell. This was the 2nd instance of cheating (that I knew of) as she had confessed about 2.5 years into our marriage that she cheated once while we were engaged.

How did I get past those feelings? I kicked her out when I caught her the next time, divorced her and never looked back.

My ex is not stupid. A bad person, but not stupid. She knew what she was doing.

It's the same with all cheaters. They cheat for crass and selfish reasons. But intelligence helps in their conniving.

You're right, Striver. In the case of a woman cheating, she totally knows what she's doing. Player lines work on her because she wants them to.

I was more addressing the idea that a man acting like an asshole actually works to attract women. Most of us know better than to fall for those guys. They're good for a ONS maybe, but that's about it. So yes, they can be successful in the sense of a woman using them for sex and tossing them away. Those who fall for those guys...that's where stupidity comes in and lord knows most of us learn that one the hard way.

I’m saying for me if I feel deeply, biologically as an authentic man that Ive been emasculated then that seems to be a genuine and authentic experience.

I think that message is ...um... wrong. If you think about biology, do you not have all your parts? Don't they still work?

As I wrote a few days ago, the metaphor that works for me is that I heard messages that I generated internally that called me less than a man. I got out of them by realizing my parts were there and worked, and HB gave me proof. When HB faded, or when I was disgusted with my W, I could feel the hormones - I just didn't have a woman I wanted to use them with.

So I went through cycles of feeling bad for myself, but they got shorter and shorter as I let reality intervene.

No matter what metaphor you use, the way out of the false emasculation is to get in touch with reality and your feelings (see below).

They do a cost-benefits analysis and realize that the WW has intentionally targeted the very core of their lived, authentic experience as man.

I don't see that happening in the stuff I read from WWs here, or from my W.

The thing that I get is that we generally aren't targets of the A. My reading of relevant posts is that the BS isn't much in the WWs' consideration at all. Like BWs, BHs are more like collateral damage.

The world doesn't revolve around WSes, but it doesn't revolve around us, either.

To be blunt about it, I think men who feel emasculated by their WWs have to wonder if they believe something about themselves that isn't necessarily true.

That's another way of describing my 'internal messaging' or 'self talk.'

Another way out of emasculation is to realize it's part of a Drama Triangle, with the BH in the role of Victim. 'Poor me - look at what my W did to me.' I don't mean that as criticism - it's impossible, IMO, to stay completely out of DTs, and there's a lot of societal pressure on BHs to feel like losers.

Once you know you're in a DT, the way out is to figure out the feeling(s) - sad, mad, scared, ashamed - and feel them.

Emasculation was generally fear for me, which diminished as I let reality in - I still had the parts, they still worked.

Reality, self-talk (or the metaphor that works for you), and feelings - a great trifecta.

I've never once considered a BH any less of a man because his wife betrayed him.

As a guy who could be thought of as so bad in bed that I drove my W to a woman, I was afraid of being ridiculed when I started here. If anyone saw me as an object of ridicule, s/he never posted it.

How do you treat new BH members? If you're kind to new BHes, you damn well deserve to be kind to yourself. (Strange 2 X 4.... )

The vast majority of members here view the vast majority of BSes here as complete human beings. I hope this isn't an over-generalization: We don't see each other as unsexed.

If you feel emasculated, remember that your fellow members don't see you that way. Sometimes, other people know you better than you know yourself.

The feeling of being middle-aged .... It's a nullifying of you as a person.

I don't think gender or age, or looks are al that relevant right here. I submit that the real problem is that cheating essentially nullifies the personhood of the BS in the WS's mind, and that encourages the BS to wonder if s/he's still a person.

BSes are persons. Period.

I know what I've written here is easier said than done, but every BS who has healed has done what I've talked about. Every BS who is healing is in the process of doing what I'm talking about. It's just that we use different words and images.

I don't mean to discount what I think is the terror involved in being unsexed. I went through a bout of ED at 49, before Viagra was available, and I remember how awful I felt about myself at the time.

But it's nightmare we can wake ourselves out of - we still are men and women. We just have to keep reminding ourselves of that - a lot. Reality, self-talk, feelings - a great trifecta.

JMO, of course.

I appreciate the high-minded conception of masculinity set out by Oldwounds, DevastatedDee, and sisoon. But I also resonate emotionally with the more visceral conception expressed by Thumos, Mene, Neanderthal, and GoldenR. My intellectual appreciation of the one does not diminish the devastating feeling of the other.

As a boy I stood my ground. If attacked or insulted, I fought back -- sometimes with fists, other times with words. My self-respect demanded it. If someone unjustly hurt me, my sense of myself as a man required that I respond in kind (though not, as Mene shows, in ways that were self-defeating). And it still does. I defend myself. I am not one to turn the other cheek.

As a husband, I was done wrong by my wife and her boyfriend (a romance rekindled by a 50th high school reunion). I have their email correspondence. Not only did their actions betray me, but their words denigrated me. To them I was implicitly a wimp, a fool, a chump, a schmuck. My masculinity, my sense of myself as a self-respecting man, was deeply wounded not only by their actions but also their words. I felt and continue to feel a need to strike back, get even, cause the POSOM pain -- at least as much as he caused me.

But unlike Mene, there's nothing I can do. I've never met the son-of-a-bitch, who's younger, bigger, and better-looking than me. He lives 600 miles away in another state. He screwed me over, took my wife, disrespected and emasculated me. I eventually intercepted the emails and put a stop to the affair, but it's been a number of years now and there's nothing I can do to get back at him.

I imagine him thinking he did a number on me, laughing at me and thinking he's a better man than I am because when he made a move and she had a choice my wife preferred him to me. Intellectually I know I'm a better man (and my wife now agrees), but the feeling of emasculation remains.

My husband said that the old cliché a man’s home is his castle is true. In the old days he could actually say he built it. Now he says he paid for it. Everything in that castle belongs to him. His wife and children belong to him. He says it does not matter about women’s rights this is just bone deep in most men. I agree with DD that a woman in midlife who gets dumped for someone half her age suffers the very same devaluation. I consider cheating assault and battery of the soul. It says you are not worth my time, my love, my energy. It says you are worth nothing to me. I don’t care how much regret and remorse someone feels the person who is cheated on never gets over it. You can compartmentalize it and get on with your life but you know for the rest of your life that the person you trusted cheated and lied. That’s pretty hard to take.

For you men, I am so sorry this happened to you, but as a woman I can tell you pain is pain.

Every word of your post rings true SeventyFour. Every single one.

My intellectual appreciation of the one does not diminish the devastating feeling of the other.

I wouldn't ever suggest anyone should feel any one way, I'm just going with how I found my way to the other side it all.

I also appreciate the 'high-minded' idea, I'm not sure I've ever been credited as such. I had included a very brief qualifier in that it took me a long time to ditch the devastation you eloquently describe. It's something we feel, as Thumos notes, down to our DNA.

AP in my world was a declared family friend. Our families hung out, broke bread together, OBS made Halloween costumes for my sons at one point. But all my respect for him ended when I learned the truth.

I have to respect someone in order to give any fucks about what his take his about me.

He had to hide from me in every way possible. He was never man enough to confront me about ANY of it, ever.

So, any words he may have said about me -- they ring hollow.

Yep, I had all those feelings anyway.

Somewhere along the way, I figured less than brave APs don't get to define me. My wife's selfishness doesn't get to define me.

I guess that's when the 'concept' hit me that I wasn't made weaker or defined by anything they did.

What does AP get to brag about? That he cheated on his family to take advantage of the most broken down version of my wife? Have it man.

But all that doesn't have a damn thing to do with what kind of man I am. How could it?

The only way I can work with feelings is to keep it simple - mad, sad, glad, sca(re)d, ashamed, maybe love and/or desire. Those are the only words I use.

'Emasculated' is a thought. Certainly feelings are associated with the thought. The actual physical sensations that came with the thought when I was dealing with it told me the parts were still attached. The emotional associations? Had to be one or more of mad, sad, scared, or ashamed. Those are the only choices I allow myself, and I recommend limiting your own choices for feeling words to the ones I've listed, or something very close in your own words. Keep feelings simple.

I imagine him thinking he did a number on me, laughing at me and thinking he's a better man than I am ... the feeling of emasculation remains.

Gently, consider what 'imagine' means.

IMO, 'imagine' means you've created a fantasy that some asshole thinks he's a better man than you are. That's your own idea. You are telling yourself he's the better man. You and only you can change that message - but first you have to own that it's your message. The emasculation is in your head. We have met the enemy and they are us....

They always affair down. To tell yourself the om is a better man is to tell yourself a lie. Stop doing it.

Again, I don't mean to minimize the awful feelings around being unsexed. I do mean to get people to see that it's a problem that each individual can solve for him/herself, by taking ownership of his/her self-talk.

And again, I know it's easier said than done.

And I don't consider this high-minded. I hope it's practical advice. I spent a lot of money, time, and effort learning the above, and I want to pass it on at no charge.

[This message edited by sisoon at 5:55 PM, August 22nd (Thursday)]

I imagine him thinking he did a number on me, laughing at me and thinking he's a better man than I am.

Maybe he does think that he pulled a number on you, laughs at you, thinks he's a better man.

Fuck that noise! Real men don't fuck other men's wives.

Real men value things like integrity and honor, courage and semper fuckin' fidelis, goddamnit!

I'm not trying to say, btw, that I'm a saint or some paragon of virtue and righteousness. Nope. That's not me, brother. Still, while I might fall short upon occasion, I do try to aspire.

I'm really sorry you guys feel emasculated by your WW's affairs and all the shit that comes with it. I don't doubt the feeling at all. I'm sure it hits hard and it's tough as hell to deal with.

If anything, I'm trying my best to present a different perspective and hope that in some way you guys can figure out whatever it is that's tripping you up. I'm sorry if that sounds "high minded" or arrogant or condescending. I'm being as sincere as I can be.

Real men get betrayed.

Good men get betrayed.

That's just life.

It's not the betrayal that defines or robs us of our manhood, it's what we do in response that defines who we are.

I think that message is ...um... wrong. If you think about biology, do you not have all your parts? Don't they still work?

This seems overly simplistic and a way of eliding my point. Biology for a male or female is obviously a great deal more complex than whether the outward genitalia are intact. So too is the spiritual depth of being a man or woman. I don’t think it’s wrong at all. It’s expressed repeatedly on this site and elsewhere that BH’s feel emasculated by their VBW’s decision to have sex with another, often by desecrating the familial home or marital bed. One can whistle past the graveyard, but these things matter a great deal.

I don't see that happening in the stuff I read from WWs here, or from my W.

I don’t view Vow Breakers as reliable sources. I’m surprised you do. This is one of the gravest mistakes that the therapeutic community seemed to make the past couple of decades, for example: taking the retroactive rewriting of the history of the marriage by Vow Breakers at face value.

Lying liars tell lies. Vow Breakers tell lies in service of their self image and to justify their transgressions. This isn’t hard.

Another way out of emasculation is to realize it's part of a Drama Triangle.

Based on? Source?

This is a very interesting situation. I’m honestly sitting here trying to imagine what it feels like to feel emasculated and I can’t. It kind of makes me wonder if I’m a narcissist, haha.

What exactly are you feeling? Can you put those feelings into words?

Also, I don’t agree that women don’t understand. They probably feel the exact same thing whenever a younger woman is involved. There just isn’t a sex specific word for it. Or not one that I’m aware of.

Regarding the AP:

I feel superior to him in every way.

And if there are things he’s better at, so what? There are things I’m better at as well. There’s always someone better.

I’ve actually felt nothing but insulted by her choice. Like, really? This dude? He’s ugly, dumb, needy, dumped his daughter+wife, job given to him through wife, etc.

When his family found out, they literally took away his phone and keys, locked him in their house, and hit him. He’s was basically a 30 year old baby that was spanked and sent to time out. HA!

Really, this dude? Ok, have fun. I’m sure he’ll be a great spouse.

Regarding my feelings/reaction:

I’ve been incredibly comfortable telling people about my experience, even people I don’t know. I feel no shame. Shame lies with her.

I don’t cry much, but I cried a lot during most of this. Whenever someone would say something like “men don’t cry” I’d just ignore them. What do they know? I’m not afraid of showing my emotions. Judge me all you want, I don’t care for the opinion of someone that says “Men don’t cry”.

Life outside of marriage:

This is probably what’s built up that wall that has protected me. I feel very satisfied with myself through all the hard work I’ve put in at the gym.

I’m not a exceptional physical specimen. However, maybe the biggest ego boost is when you know guys are you comparing themselves to you. And I’ve reached that spot not because I’m special, but because I’ve worked so hard.

People appreciate me at work, outside of work. I’m very good with children, I know I’d be a great father. Another thing she messed up, I’d have been a terrific father. My work has been incredibly stable, same company for 10 years, been working with children since I was a teen myself. I’m compassionate, considerate, empathetic, polite.

I know I’m not the best, I have my own problems. Some big, some small. But, I’ve accepted that. We all have our strengths and weaknesses.

It’s everything I’ve done outside of my marriage that has helped build this tremendous wall protecting my sense masculinity. My XWW did quite a bit to try and break me into something of a man servant for her. I guess this recent affair was perhaps partly in response to how my new sense of self that came through my training made her feel.

[This message edited by Ganondorf at 7:32 AM, August 24th (Saturday)]

Another thought just came to mind.

I never saw my marriage or my wife as something that defined who I was. It was simply a part of my life.

I'm very proud of a lot of the things I've done in my life, and of who I am. It's not a lot, I'm not special, but I'm very satisfied with myself in many ways that had absolutely nothing to do with her or what she did.

How about you? What are you proud of? How do you feel about yourself, outside of your marriage?

Ganondorf, maybe you feel that way because you divorced her and sped up the healing process? Maybe I’ve prolonged my agony by attempting some version of reconciliation and staying for three years.

Like you I’ve spent time in the iron temple - does wonders for men. And I’ve improved enough that younger men want to know how I’ve built muscle mass. I do wonder if my WW began to grow threatened by my improved physical shape a little over three years ago.

@Thumos

In my situation, she was the one that pushed for D. I think it's just my mindset. I wanted to "win her" during the pick me game, but I was also aware the prize was kind of a shitty prize. Maybe she'll realize her mistakes and become a better person, but I wouldn't hold my breath. All the shame of this situation lies with them.

I can't speak for your WW and your time at the gym. I suspect mine just didn't like my focus shifting from pleasing her to cultivating my own interests. When I would say "No, I can't eat ____. Could we eat ___ or cook instead?" She'd simply hear "No" and take it personally.

I absolutely felt that way, and whether that was validated by the pro-R crowd here on SI was then and remains now 100% irrelevant to me. I took the actions necessary to eradicate the cause of that cancer from my life, set the JAG on the AP, and moved ahead smartly with a whole new personal aspect of my life. Nearly 18 months later, I'm on the other side of CONUS thriving in my chosen profession, not yet settled down with a new Mrs. CdrNotLost but I am exclusive with a lady who seems like a solid prospect for that role. Life does get better.