SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Many of us men can't even fathom having this and still going out to chase tail. <head.just.shaking>

<Raises hand> I could not agree more. This is going to sound terrible, but, most of the men I know who are out chasing tail have a very, very similar story. Little/no sex at home, wife is more interested in the kids than some mutual orgasms, very inhibited sex life when they do get down to it, lots of acts in the "no" category. I'm not saying it's right, in fact, I think it's just as awful as any other A, but it's understandable why these guys are doing what they do. They want to experience some sexual act/excitement and an A is, if nothing else, the least disruptive way to do that.

But a guy who's wife is a freak in bed and will give him all the sex he wants (which I realize is a lot of the BW's here, and I'm just so sorry for you; you're doing the right thing and getting the wrong results)?? What the heck is wrong with that guy? IDK anyone like that IRL, so I can't ask them, nearly all the men I know cheating have complained for years about dead bedroom. But I'm sure they are out there; I've read the stories here and my head just shakes every single time. Dude, do you have any idea how RARE what you have is? And you're shitting all over it for what? So you can trade the rare and wonderful thing you have already for what's almost certainly an illusion? Yeah, a lot of women will bang your brains out during an A; most will stop that behavior the moment you make them into a legitimate partner. It's like a rich guy wrestling a dollar bill out of a beggars hands, what the hell is wrong with you? I have 0 sympathy for this behavior in men.

Alright,then, since we're piling on, I'll add that the female poster who wrote this...

I was nasty with my husband because I had this insane idea that if I were choosing to only have sex with him, I'd make sure it was a good time.

...is also apparently a Vette aficionado. How is that not ideal? Lady, point him out to us because I'm betting I can gather a couple of the fellas here on SI to gang throttle some sense into him.

[This message edited by NotTheManIwas at 6:36 AM, May 1st (Wednesday)]

I think loving somebody and choosing somebody for these characteristics is normal and not something to scoff at, but it all flies out the window when you find that your spouse is keeping you around for the reliability and paying the mortgage on time while getting strange on the side.

Yes, there is a difference between loving you because you are reliable and just keeping you around.

I purposely titled this, "Husbands", rather than BHs because I was thinking in terms of why the W chose to marry her H in the 1st place, not why the CW went back to the BH. What I'm getting is that a lot of times it's not even ok when it's the reason a woman decides to marry a man.

WRT hot guy vs. average looking guy. It's whoever is attractive to me. I think I already said I wouldn't marry a guy I wasn't attracted to. And, I'm not going to marry the lazy bum hot guy just because he's hot.

I'm also with OIN on attractiveness. I've known several very good looking guys who were not attractive at all because of their personalities. I've also known guys who I was not instantly drawn to who became more attractive to me once I got to know them. My H is one of those guys. Interestingly, I'm told all the time that he's very good looking. He is, but for whatever reason, I wasn't really attracted to him when I first saw him. Maybe that's the answer to your question, Neverhealed.

As woman I want my man to appreciate all of the traits in my character that makes me a reliable partner. However, at the end of the day I want him to want ME.

To me, that is wanting me. Say, for example, my H didn't marry xgf because, while he was very attracted to her physically and she was a decent person, he didn't think she would be a good mother. H decides to marry me because, in addition to everything else, he thinks I would be a good mother. So, he loves me for me.

A better analogy for me is if my H told me he chose me only because I'm hot and/or for the sex. That would not be ok with me. I do not want to be a trophy wife.

After cheating, in line with the thinking on this thread, all of us betrayeds became plan B. My fch went to the OW for emotional support. Apparently, he wasn't getting what he needed from me. If I hadn't found put about it, he would've continued to be friends with her. He actually thought we all could be friends because she was such a good person.

The thing is, his cheating wasn't about me. It was about him and his unhealthyness. He had problems and he chose the wrong solution. It wasn't because I wasn't pretty enough, or wasn't wild enough in bed, or didn't keep the house clean enough, or wasn't available emotionally. I was available. He never came to me even though I tried. None of that is on me.

I guess the idea of being plan B bothers me because it seems to me saying that I wasn't good enough, that, somehow, the cheating was my fault. I don't want other betrayeds to put that on themselves.

But a guy who's wife is a freak in bed and will give him all the sex he wants (which I realize is a lot of the BW's here, and I'm just so sorry for you; you're doing the right thing and getting the wrong results)?? What the heck is wrong with that guy?

And that proves my point that it isn't about us.

During my wife’s affair, sex was infrequent, uninspired and limited to a handful of basic acts and positions. I specifically told her “don’t vacuum me,” meaning sex felt to me like she was performing just one more mundane household chore before she could get back on her phone to do whatever she was doing.

Then she stopped having sex with me at all for eight months.

Her AP got to fuck her, but only the same way I had before her affair. No bangbus porno style shit for him.

Then her affair died it’s natural death.

Then she put her energy back into our marriage and - plot twist - we started to like each other more and our connection returned.

And I started getting her best effort in the bedroom and it was awesome, for five years.

And then the affair was revealed. And in a way that many of you will understand, we dug in and had a lot of hard conversations that strengthened our connection and intimacy.

And my wife, who is extraordinarily intuitive, must have known how tempting it would be for me to go get some strange given what she had done. I’m not the man who would do that, but she didn’t want to leave anything to chance. So........

I now have a wife who actually enjoys pretty much everything short of violence and playing with pee or poop. I’m not down for violence or diaper play, so that’s good. But toys, anal, spanking, lingerie, oral to completion, sex she initiates, sexting, all the good shit, is mine, often. Does it erase the damage she did to me? No. But it does make for good spank bank material to overwrite the hard drive otherwise filled with mind movies of what she did with AP.

And her insurance policy against a revenge affair, unnecessary as it was, makes me agree completely with Rideitout’s last post. I cannot comprehend a man who has what I now have putting it at risk.

And if she keeps this up for me, I’ll be happily married again.

I'm trepidatious about being used as a means to an end whenever I reenter the dating pool, so I get this feeling wholeheartedly. Still, I fall on the fence when it comes to this discussion. Does me being attracted to mid range weight and below mean I like a woman who has a sense of mind to stay healthy and attractive, or am I shallow? Does a woman being into me making good money indicate a gold digger or someone who appreciates a hard working man?

I guess the test is whether or not they leave you when you don't have that thing, or that thing isn't enough anymore. But that's when people can rationalize their balls off: he/she gave up, they were a mess, dragging me down with them, yadda yadda. Truth is, while most people do in fact settle, we don't like to think we're settling and so until life pushes us into someone else, we construct all of these rules--which include things like "is he a good provider". These are mate-attracting traits and really stuff that get our feet in the door.

Knowing if it's "true love" or not (whatever the hell that is, by the way) is unknowable until the other person proves it is actually *not* true love, or one of you dies before you can break up.

My fch went to the OW for emotional support. Apparently, he wasn't getting what he needed from me. If I hadn't found put about it, he would've continued to be friends with her. He actually thought we all could be friends because she was such a good person.

The thing is, his cheating wasn't about me. It was about him and his unhealthyness. He had problems and he chose the wrong solution. It wasn't because I wasn't pretty enough, or wasn't wild enough in bed, or didn't keep the house clean enough, or wasn't available emotionally. I was available. He never came to me even though I tried. None of that is on me.

I guess the idea of being plan B bothers me because it seems to me saying that I wasn't good enough, that, somehow, the cheating was my fault.

If I change all the He/him/his for She/her, is a perfect description of my situation. And yes, being chosen as Plan B (the Plan B where they keep you around without love, only for the reliability), makes you feel worse than being cheated on. Makes you feel like, used.

Bit of a threadjack, but I must speak up for my much-maligned minivan. It's my favorite car I've ever owned. I've driven a Camaro, a '68 Charger, a BMW Z3... none of them have the comfort and versatility of my Sienna.

Lest you think I'm just hopelessly boring and conventional, I've had sex in both the Camaro and the minivan (with BH both times, don't judge me!), and the minivan experience wins hands down. I wouldn't have dared try it in the Z3. We'd have been arrested for indecent exposure. There's a reason Bangbus isn't filmed in a sports car.

I purposely titled this, "Husbands", rather than BHs because I was thinking in terms of why the W chose to marry her H in the 1st place, not why the CW went back to the BH. What I'm getting is that a lot of times it's not even ok when it's the reason a woman decides to marry a man.

I am glad you specified that. I do think the lens is different, and I know you know that too.

And, operating under that same lens, generically under "married life" and not "life after betrayal", I want to say that chemistry while you are dating is great. I do recommend that, and obviously you want to marry someone you are hot for in addition to being an appropriate mate. Meaning that if I am the woman who married the man I am just hot for, eventually his "bad boy ways" is going to erode by desire for him. And, if the woman I am married to is a freak in bed but can't seem to be a good mother to our kids, or really have any other useful qualities past her bedroom skills, she is going to turn you off. It's hard to be attracted to someone you don't like any more. That's why AP's who get married get divorced.

Chemistry is ever changing. Attraction is ever changing. I do not believe it is what actually keeps things going. What keeps things going is deciding to make the relationship a high priority for both people. Keeping the resentments down that impede the natural easy flow of your relationship. If it's not easy out of the sheets, it's not going to stay easy in them. And, vice versa.

My H and I have had a great sex life for decades. He and I both agree on that. It's not because we had some magical chemistry - that sort of stuff goes out of the window after the honeymoon. We are so many people during our evolution of life and our marriage is so many things during those years as well.

The reason we had a fantastic sex life is because we both decided it was important. It's also because he supported me in every dream I ever had, and supported whatever I needed to do to be happy. And, it's because I did the same for him. We kept date nights with small kids. We kept stoking the fires of our desire AND our love/emotional connection because during that time we had our priorities right. The kids would be fine if we took time for ourselves, in fact I think our kids turned out better because of it. Marriages that succeed are the result of two people who were consistent in choosing each other every day. That includes everything from sex to the mundane tending of life. And, when one gets out of whack it effects everything else. It's because it's out of whack because at least one of the two of you can't prioritize the relationship over whatever else is at play.

And, you can see that at some point I still had an affair. Because affairs by and large have nothing to do with the BS, and usually very little to do with the relationship. We simply stopped making each other a priority, we took for granted that after all we'd been through together and as easy as our marriage always was we could withstand ignoring it. The problem is that neither of us knew I could not handle that. I didn't have the coping skills a person should have. I didn't reach out. I fell into a deep depression (not because of the marriage but from empty nest, from being burned out and wildly over worked, and I was not getting my usual doses of validation/appreciation) I didn't do anything but try and escape, leave, or whatever you want to say. He was in the same marriage, he didn't cheat. That's why you can't look at anything but the cheater. It's both of our faults our relationship was off the rails, but it was my fault that I could not stand up and do something productive about that instead of throwing it away.

The bottom line: Want to have a healthy marriage? Choose it. Obviously, there are many people on here that would if they could. They are still waiting to see if the WS will work to clear some of that debt before they decide if the rest will be discharged. But, in general, that's the answer - both people choose it. That includes marking as many of the boxes as possible for what that looks like to the two of you. If sex is important to one, it needs to be important to the other, if equal chore division is important to one than it has to be important to the other. Keep the river of your marriage flowing with as few obstacles as possible.

Does me being attracted to mid range weight and below mean I like a woman who has a sense of mind to stay healthy and attractive, or am I shallow? Does a woman being into me making good money indicate a gold digger or someone who appreciates a hard working man?

No. There are evolutionary reasons for these types of attraction. A man is attracted to a woman for her looks because looks convey health or lack thereof, which conveys suitable ability to bear and nourish offspring. Women are attracted to men who can provide because it helps to ensure that her offspring will survive.

I understand that thinking you are just being kept around only because you are a good provider makes you plan B (maybe). That's not what I talking about. I can get sex, and probably love, just about anywhere. What I can't get from just about any man is the other stuff my H gives me, security, responsibility, reliability, care, etc. Maybe that's just my experience. He was the first man I knew besides my dad who was like that.

BSR My minivan was a necessary evil. Boy, was my H mad when I bought it! He didn't talk to me for 3 days right before he was deploying for at least 6 months, might've been a year. I don't mind a t/j. I like it when these convos ebb and flow and evolve.

I have no idea what bangbus is. Should I Google it?

My experience was a little different.

Im married to NPD...everything was about him...his ego...his looks...his sexual ability...

we talked...I tried to explain what was hurting me...what my boundaries were...what was breaking us...he didn't hear...if it paintead him less then perfect....he blocked it out...and if I mentioned sex,....he only heard the sex conversation...nothing else.. As he aged, he stopped having sex with me, while he cheated..he couldn't handle both.....his ego was so wrapped up in sex, it was most important to him...

I would give anything to have reliability....at least on some level....great looks, great sexual ability, obsession with sex.....can be a very negative thing...its all about balance...

IT didn't matter my attributes. I have not let my looks go......one would never be enough for Wh...life was meant to live it up.. He refused to pass thru this life, without exciting new sex anytime he could.

It did give me low self esteem...I felt not good enough, until I really saw him...and saw this is his problem..this is his issues...and I can do better.

Its about attitude....this doesn't make me PBJ sandwich...this makes me smarter then him..this makes me decent...and this makes me trustworthy... if you feel PBJ sandwich....its on you. Their behavior does not label you.

I love a fine meal....I don't eat it everyday....sometimes PBJ is exactly what I want. balance.

[This message edited by cancuncrushed at 8:52 AM, May 1st (Wednesday)]

HO, I started to quote a part of your post, but realized I would have to quote the entire thing. You are spot on. We need to continually choose each other and the M.

Some people don't like to hear that. They say it shouldn't have to be a choice, but it is. I wake up every morning choosing to stay in my M. I go to bed every night doing the same, even when I'm pissed at my H. I can choose to leave at any time.

My H does the same. I don't know for sure why he makes that choice. He says it's because he loves me. He could be lying. I know he can lie. It could be out of obligation. It could be because he doesn't want to be seen as a failure for getting a D. It could be because he doesn't want to pay alimony and child support and not see his kids very much. At some point, I have to decide what I think the truth is and decide whether or not it is enough for me.

IT didn't matter my attributes

It did give me low self esteem...I felt not good enough, until I really saw him...and saw this is his problem..this is his issues...and I can do better.

Exactly. It wasn't about you. It also wasn't about the AP. The AP is nothing special. Who, what, or how the AP is has absolutely no bearing on who, what, or how we are.

To the point of your OP, I'm both a BH (first LTR) and a H (current marriage). My wife and I were both early 30's when we met. We had both lived lives. She is a very attractive woman who grew up and lived in a big city. She had her share of "tire tracks across her back", to paraphrase Jimi Hendrix. So did I.

I knew that one of the reasons she chose to marry me was because I am a decent, honest, hard working, reliable man. I'm 100% fine with that. More than 100% fine. I'm proud to be her husband, and flattered that she chose me.

But if she were to cheat and fuck another man -- and especially if she went Bangbus with him, and/or denied me during that time, etc. -- absolutely no way would I thereafter be okay with being relegated to "Joe Reliable". I would not be able to find it in my heart to R if R meant stepping back into that role.

In other words, context means something.

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 9:20 AM, May 1st (Wednesday)]

I don't feel like plan A or B. The posts that say I'd rather they chose me because they can't keep their hands off of me hit me hard. My wife and I had incredible sex by her own admission the AP doesn't do it for her. I'm reliable with a good job and I have always taken care of her. She's told me that I'm an incredible partner and have been so amazing but yet I'm not good enough. I do NOT get it. Not plan A or B and she finds me sexy and reliable and good sex...so WTF

I knew that one of the reasons she chose to marry me was because I am a decent, honest, hard working, reliable man. I'm 100% fine with that.

But if she were to cheat and fuck another man -- and especially if she went Bangbus with him, and/or denied me during that time, etc. -- absolutely no way would I thereafter be okay with being relegated to "Joe Reliable".

In other words, context means something.

Nailed it.

I don't ever recall wondering if I was her Plan A prior to the betrayal. I knew plenty about her past and the excitement she'd had with AP prior to meeting me. That pre-dated me and I'd had plenty of excitement myself. No harm, no foul. I was actually proud of being "the better choice."

The context changed after the betrayal. Now, the notion that she's been pining for him all along is front of mind. Now, sex is the reflection of, benchmark, and definition of what it means to be Plan A.

To all the female posters that have wondered out loud here on SI "fellas, what is your fixation with the sex defining her love for you," think context. The betrayal changed it, and it has changed how we see ourselves.

[This message edited by NotTheManIwas at 9:16 AM, May 1st (Wednesday)]

coco, that's exactly what I kind of touched on at the end. Precisely why I don't get too hung up on this stuff unless I'm actively feeling used. "I want someone to like me for me" is a misguided thought. People do like other people for "them", but being a provider or attractive or strong or not crazy are parts of "them".

I don't ever recall wondering if I was her Plan A prior to the betrayal. I knew plenty about her past and the excitement she'd had with AP prior to meeting me. Yet, I was actually proud of being "the better choice."

The context changed after the betrayal. Now, the notion that she's been pining for him all along is front of mind. Now, sex is the reflection of, benchmark, and definition of what it means to be Plan A.

To all the female posters that have wondered out loud here on SI "fellas, what is your fixation with the sex defining her love for you," think context. The betrayal changed it, and it has changed how we see ourselves.

I think that's why the OP wrote that she is talking about the lens of marriage not betrayal.

I do think the point you are making is worth underlining though. What happens after betrayal is very different. You were the one bringing home your paycheck, helping with the house and kids, putting your effort in. You accepted the less sex, remained faithful. Then, she gave the sex to someone else with really nothing in return. He didn't have to do any real work for it. It makes you feel foolish for accepting what you accepted. I get it. So, new boundaries and expectations for the marriage are put up.

Not to mention, regardless if you are a BW or a BH, your spouse went out and made someone else more important than you. To even begin to heal that particular wound, the wayward really needs to prove to you it's YOU they really want. That they will choose you and your needs. They will give you effort and enthusiasm. And, if they won't then what really is the point?

That will only go so far though. At some point, if the BS wants to have a happy marriage, then they will eventually have to discharge the rest of the debt. A WS will never make it fully up to you. At some point you have to either say "this is a dealbreaker for me" or "I want us to move forward and be happy", and if it's the latter then both parties come together and paint the picture of what that means.

But, I think that no matter what - it comes down to the BS wants to understand that the WS is there FOR THEM, because they LOVE them. A romantic relationship means you also DESIRE them, or like Rideitout points out, then it's not a romantic relationship. It's a friendship. I do think the reason this gets lost in translation is the men tend to talk about this in crass terms that do not sound loving. But, there is a reason for that - it's NOT loving. It's "this person broke my love, I am willing to see if that can be repaired but I need to be convinced that they love me and are really all in with me."

I think that's why the OP wrote that she is talking about the lens of marriage not betrayal.

HO, yup, which is why I wrote...

I don't ever recall wondering if I was her Plan A prior to the betrayal.

...and I don't think most men give much thought to the Plan A v. B notion before a betrayal. It's a non-issue because "I was her choice." And that's pretty damn fine for us.

As for...

That will only go so far though. At some point, if the BS wants to have a happy marriage, then they will eventually have to discharge the rest of the debt.

...I'm betting most men understand this, too. But...for us, the start of building a new marriage begins with the expression of our primacy. And DomesticTourist's posts provide the blueprint for the WW.

Check out how his last post ends...

And if she keeps this up for me, I’ll be happily married again.

Ironically, because I'm getting from his posts that he's not one to be emotionally steamrolled, I wonder if even DomesticTourist would have imagined himself writing that shortly after Dday.

Crass though it may be, crass is a form of male self-preservation. Even the stoutest and staunchest of us might well be influenced by the vagina's power. Just sayin'

and maybe cheaters are messed up emotional people with ego...needy...

Maybe its that simple...no plan A or B...no rejection of the spouse. No boring...no reliable......just crazy cheaters...

maybe its about their messed up needs. and has zero to do with BS.

This is more about how cheating leaves us feeling...not any truth...we are not these things. don't allow them to make you feel this way...you know who you are...you know what they did was absolutely wrong.

[This message edited by cancuncrushed at 10:01 AM, May 1st (Wednesday)]