SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

In one of her talks she equates infidelity to "cancer" to the marriage. I also see that she may have a conflict of interest, as she comes across as a wayward spouse who still has fond memories of her affair(s). She is part of the current establishment of feminist thinking that affairs used to be the province of men and now women are catching up so good for them. I find her vibe distasteful, but I have found her useful as a way to bridge my WS into dialoguing about what was really going on with her.

I may seem to be defending her but I am not. I just want to be fair to her. Calling infidelity cancer is about right. I like the analogy because it does not necessarily mean you will die. It can cause you to think about all the things you did that facilitated the growth of the tumors and what you can do to stop them from returning. The underlying premise is that cancer is deadly and terrible, but it can lead to renewal and health if you treat it as a wake up call. Often for the betrayed, the lesson is: you were giving too much, trusting too much, and assuming too much. Which can lead to investing less in someone who lied to you just to get side sex. Holding them fully accountable and keeping the option of moving on completely if they don't enthusiastically help you heal every single day until you get there.

So I get 2 years to "make myself a better person"

I mean, for fuck's sake, if it's so healthy and liberating and good for your wholeness, then it should be a positive thing when your spouse goes on their own journey of discovery

When I was in the wilderness of the excruciating pain right after DDay, I could only relate to the infidelity from the victim position. Once my WH came clean with the full story, one month after DDay and we began the long, arduous road of recovery and reconciliation, I was haunted by the whys. I read and listened to anything I could get my hands on, and during that very dark period, I came across Esther Perel's TED talk on how very frequently affairs come about because the WS is looking for a new self, not necessarily a new partner, which is why they can occur even in seemingly okay marriages. This message was key to me, and helped me to see how much pain my WH had been in, that he had untreated male depression he was desperately hiding, and affected by many FOO and other childhood issues he hadn't addressed. Of course I was angry and still am, but I also can relate to his pain. He shows remorse and is undergoing a metanoia, with a lot of help from his IC and our MC. It's excruciating work and there are days when I feel like throwing in the towel, but for me, key to R has been my ability to empathize with my WH's pain. I know I can forgive him, if not his actions. So although I may not agree with other things she has written, that TED talk opened my eyes and helped me begin processing the whys. For that I am grateful.

Aumanny99 But to reconcile, I must judge and reject those parts of her that did cause the affair, her choices, but not reject the person I fell in love with and am still in love with. I can understand some, if not most, waywards are beyond redemption and feel free to kick them to the curb. Many are not. Mine seems to fit into the redeemable category. Perel helps me to peer into her darkness and see why she did what she did. It's ugly, but ignoring it, or demonizing it is not the right path for me.

I couldn't agree more, Aumanny99. This is why we are doing the arduous work of R.

In that particular TED talk Esther Perel also gives examples of how the WS can help the BS with triggers, and puts the onus on the WS to anticipate them. That was also convincing for me. She didn't sugarcoat the anguish the BS goes through, and that triggers can occur years after DDay.

On DDay:

BS 56

WH 58

OW 26(!)

Married 35 years, my only

Two DSs, who know, ages 25 and 28

DD1 Oct 18, 2016 - Told me he had gone to a massage parlor

DD2 Nov 19, 2016 Real story confessed, an 8 month EA + PA Dec '15-July '16

In R - Both working 200%

I may seem to be defending her but I am not. I just want to be fair to her.

I get what you're saying. I initially felt the same way about Michelle(?) Langley (Women's Infidelity), and she's an absolute fucking crank infidelity apologist. She's worse than Perel with none of the qualifications (however tenuous) except that she'd been a WS and needed to "understand herself".

But in that first year, she was enormously useful to me, because I couldn't imagine the level of delusional bullshit going on in my wife's head until someone else was willing to spell it out in a semi-objective confessional form.

It was enormously useful for me to encounter that thinking in a way that distant enough that it wasn't as threatening to my self-identity. The guys here told me I was fuckin' nuts.

And I think they were right for most BH's. Langley is a complete idiot in the Eat, Pray, Love mode, and if you take her as an academic with a legit voice, she's likely to wreck you and make you a doormat for the emotional needs of your wife's inner-child-masturbation-therapy.

But for me, I needed to see it and confront it so I'd have a methodology for understanding it and then attacking it when I was confronted with the bullshit for real. I wasn't stunned to silence or tempted to believe it was "true" when it started popping out because I'd already had time to parse it, come to grips with it, and turn it on its head. I was in my 30's on D-Day. I hadn't thought of my genitals as my primary problem-solving organ since I was like 21. Langley was useful in educating me that there's a persistent class of people who appear to be fully engaged adults for whom this is not true. That's a priceless insight.

My infidelity recovery philosophy was simple: Do what works. When it stops working, do something else. Langley worked for a bit when I needed it. Then I moved on to the next thing.

[This message edited by wincing_at_light at 6:24 PM, September 19th (Tuesday)]

I am so glad to hear other's echo my sentiments. Perel is far from perfect, but she formed a key role in my recovery. I could not have said it better than hurtbutreslient. It helped get out of the victim posture, which is a dead end. I have never thought of myself as a victim. I owned my life. I knew I was responsible for who I am and what happens to me, in the sense that I control how I react to it.

In this case, the affair helped me grow up. To stop seeing my wife through rose colored glasses. She IS capable of deception and being conflicted and acting out. She does use her genitals to solve her problems. She can be incredibly rageful, vengeful and immature. I have the right to evaluation from scratch this new person I never noticed to see if she is capable of being a safe partner for me. This took mourning the loss of the illusion of our former marriage. It took humility to see the ways I was underestimating how my choices played in a role in exacerbating her pain, of which first and foremost was underestimating how much pain she can hide from needs that were not being met in our marriage. Now, I attend to them, but also let her know I have unmet needs, too. I want more from the marriage or I want out, too. Esther Perel emphasized that in the talk. The betrayed is often as unhappy as the wayward and the betrayal gives them an opportunity to get out of a marriage they found stifling also or to renegotiate a far better one now that the affair has exposed how badly things had gotten. This, again, is similar to how the wake up of a heart attack or cancer can thrust someone into a more healthy lifestyle.

Thanks again for validating how Perel was useful.

" the betrayal gives them an opportunity to get out of a marriage they found stifling also or to renegotiate a far better one now that the affair has exposed how badly things had gotten."

many other ways to do this rather than having an affair or recovering from the betrayal from it. it's like saying well if it's going to happen or happened I may as well get something good out of it.

no. it was wrong. it sucked. i dont' have to fucking figure myself out. i didn't do anything wrong. i dont' have to be a victim either. but there is nothing wrong with sitting there for a while. my IC said my anger was useful in moving me forward.

But I sure as hell don't need to do any work other than heal. it made trust a slippery concept in our marriage. it made my life worse.

[This message edited by sewardak at 12:49 PM, September 25th (Monday)]

I think she's an idiot

Aumanny99:

The betrayed is often as unhappy as the wayward and the betrayal gives them an opportunity to get out of a marriage they found stifling also or to renegotiate a far better one now that the affair has exposed how badly things had gotten. This, again, is similar to how the wake up of a heart attack or cancer can thrust someone into a more healthy lifestyle.

Exactly! We are now communicating much more honestly than we ever have. Our MC has really helped us to connect with our feelings and express them in ways we can hear each other. We are learning how to really support each other and how to build boundaries around the marriage, so that not only APs are kept out, but other negative influences, such as meddling FOOs. I will no longer leave my needs unspoken and unmet.

Furthermore, I don't read Perel as condoning affairs but as trying to shed light on the complex psychological issues that make people think they are solutions to complex psychological issues. My fWH was in a deep, untreated depression, so desperate he thought the ego strokes from a "beautiful", "artistic", "shy" "exotic" 26 year old would help him. Not surprisingly, the A did the opposite, especially as most affair down. fWH had enough sense to call the AP and stop the A himself, three months before DDay 1. But the damage is deep.

Perel helped me understand how fragile and hurtful humans can be, even in solid relationships. Now both fWH and I just wish we could have gotten to where we are headed without all of this pain and scarring.

I am all about empathy but this

She fell prey to a narcissist

sounds a whole lot like excusing. She made a choice and a poor one but she didn't fall prey. She's a grown woman.

I know it can be very reassuring to think your spouse was lured or preyed upon but in the vast majority of cases the wayward spouse and the AP hold exactly 50% stake in the affair.

As for Perel, I agree that she is a good exercise in coming to a point of realizing the depth of selfishness, immaturity and delusion it takes to get into the headspace for an otherwise decent person to have an affair.

ONe thing I think is important to add that someone that lacked enough insight and introspection to learn the things she talks in hindsight clearly did not have that when they choose to have an A.

It follows that same person reading her works after dday would be in the same mindset and takes this at too superficial value and use it to justify their actions in hindsight.

That is where her stuff is dangerous to a WS who doesn't yet "get it." It becomes a "loophole" to avoid personal responsibility for their choices. Further since the WS tends to use deception in the A what is to stop them from telling the BS what they want to hear while harboring "I am justified in my actions," feelings.

The same rub applies. How do you know that the WS is really truly accepting 100% responsibility without harboring thoughts of well insert EP sentences verbatim to alleviate their guilt (not remorse).

I fully agree a grown woman who is married and has an affair is 100% responsible for that affair. She fell prey to a narcissist because she was broken, in the way I stated above. Plus, in her mind it was a revenge affair as she believed that I had had several affairs. I had not. But she had convinced herself. So she had the affair INTENTIONALLY. It was no accident. She did not go kicking and screaming. She enthusiastically had it and would not stop until I finally caught her. She was deep in the Fog for nearly a year after DD. I hold her 100% responsible. Perel just helps me figure out why she is redeemable. My first instinct was to just divorce. But we have kids, so I paused to explore what is possible. SI helped too. I saw that many other couples do reconcile and end up in stronger marriages. But you have to heal correctly or your just deluding yourself with rug sweeping.

[This message edited by Aumanny99 at 12:59 PM, September 27th (Wednesday)]

Perel may not be the first person that a BS should find right after d-day . . . but for me she was. I got the impression that working through the facts and issues brought up by the A, we could experience a better relationship. However, I now see she is probably more appropriate AFTER you have at least passed the TT stages. What I had been listening to in her talks was too optimistic as far as what I was experiencing. And I think her focus on the sexual aspects leaves a gap for those whose spouse had more of a emotional or escapist affair.

But honestly, it has been so long since I watched her TED and other videos, that I don't recall details. And I am afraid that just reviewing them could be a trigger . . . so I will just leave it at that.

I had more problems with the books and materials that are highly recommended, but come from a strong Christian perspective. My wife and I share a different spirituality, as we have both had bad experiences with christian churches. When she began to read "How to Help Your Spouse heal" she actually laughed at all the times God was mentioned. (I know that sounds awful and sacreligious, but the effect was worse than that! I had to endure a horrible wicked laugh I had never heard from her before . . . and it was frightening! It became one aspect of a cruelty that came out as she refused to deal with growing guilt and shame issues. Anger was her go-to when ever she had strong emotions overcome her in the past, and I had no idea that her anger and cruelty were manifest due to this! Only through lots of study and IC did I finally begin to see and understand that FOO and CSA issues had a huge role in how she was thinking following d-day. It was hard for her, but I/C also began to help her reach the turning point where she too, realized that she had always used anger as a defense against strong or hurtful emotions.)

So like Aumanny99 expressed, Perel has helped me with empathy toward my wayward. And that has helped me with patience while she discovers how to feel stronger empathy toward me, the very person she hurt. Her shame was getting in the way . . . but she is making progress. When she becomes angry in discussions about the A or the AP now, I know we are getting close to an issue she is having difficulty dealing with. It is both a red flag and a while flag. I know sometimes it means there is more to the story about to come out . . .

I love this thread. So many eloquent people able to describe the bull that Esther Perel peddles.

If you've live long enough you'll even find people glamourising murder, torture and rape. Infidelity is a soft target for these serpents because very often the victim will try to hang on to the relationship with the offender and the legal framework does not provide any recourse either so, surely it can't be that evil. Ask a person who has been robbed and cheated on. They'll tell you which was more devastating. As for Esther Perel for all her broad minded musings on the subject she still manages to keep a straight face using terms like "mistress". Yes, there is nothing as liberating as being a man's paid piece on the side. The woman's a joke.

I thought it was a great article. Not perfect, but great in that it contains fundamental truths and generates thought.

I mean, isn't this one of the mantras of SI?

And yet I often find myself asking jilted lovers to consider a question that seems ludicrous to them: What if the affair had nothing to do with you?

Or this

Secluded from the responsibilities of everyday life, the parallel universe of the affair is often idealized, infused with the promise of transcendence. For some people, like Priya, it is a world of possibility—an alternate reality in which they can reimagine and reinvent themselves...

Forbidden-love stories are utopian by nature, especially in contrast with the mundane constraints of marriage and family.

How many references here to unicorn skittles and la-la land?

Or this...

Our conversations help Priya bring clarity to her confusing picture. She is relieved that we don’t have to pick apart her relationship with Colin. But having to assume full responsibility leaves her heavy with guilt

Sounds like the opposite excusing. It puts the full burden of responsibility on the cheater and absolves the BS of blame (it is not about you.)

And this...

“You think you had a relationship with Truck Man,” I tell her. “Actually, you had an intimate encounter with yourself, mediated by him.

This tells me (and maybe tells a future WS-wannabe) that what you really want is accessible via another path.

And this, which I see here all the time.

Catastrophe has a way of propelling us into the essence of things. In the wake of devastating betrayals, so many couples tell me that they are having some of the deepest, most honest conversations of their entire relationship. Their history is laid bare—unfulfilled expectations, unspoken resentments, and unmet longings. Love is messy; infidelity, more so. But it is also a window, like none other, into the crevices of the human heart.

To riff on the stolen car analogy in the comments, what if the car thief figured out that what he wanted when he stole the car wasn't actually another car, and that what he really wanted could be gained without risking going to jail and ruining someone else's life, and in fact could be gained and improve someone else's life to boot?

Google on "rich people shoplifting" if you want another non-emotionally charged example.

From the article...

I often say to my patients that if they could bring into their marriage even one-tenth of the boldness, the playfulness, and the verve that they bring to their affair, their home life would feel quite different.

I think she wrote an article based on observed truths, and their potential to serve as rationalizations or excuses is a separate issue from whether they are true or not.

[This message edited by HouseOfPlane at 8:47 AM, September 28th (Thursday)]

One perceives the world through filters. The good part about diversity is that we can see how another person perceives the world through his/her filters, and if we keep our minds open, other people can help us transcend our own limitations.

You picked out a lot in the article that I hadn't really taken in. You - and other posters, of course - haven given me a much better understanding of the article.

Thanks for your post, House.

i guess my beef is that she focuses so much on the why of the WS when in fact, the affair impacts the BS so much more. i wish there was more of how impossible it will be to recover the marriage from an affair, no matter how remorseful the WS is. even if the WS realizes all this about themselves, that doesn't really take away the pain of the BS. i feel like saying, so?

or the in depth conversations had in the marriage after an affair. that's nice. a little too late though.

I am responsible for healing from the affair as a BS. The WS can certainly help by owning the affair and being remorseful. But ultimately, I am the one who has to heal from the pain.

And let me tell you, the pain does not last forever. Especially if you follow the steps outlined in SI and their vast array of resources. If you do all the right things and love yourself the way you should, we can all let go of the pain and live again, with or without our WS's.

We are ENOUGH.

When as a society an act that takes root in secret becomes a behavioral norm there will always be someone around to sell the tshirt.