SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Ive got a process thats unfolding here, I have an infidelity specialist, and two stubborn dipshits, neither of which is going to be the one who blinks first, but at least are unwilling to give up on the other.

I have very little wisdom to offer here. You are clearly resolute in your chosen course of action, and no one can fault you for commitment. To not only deal with the trauma of a nearly certain full-on PA that you may never get clarity on, but an unremorseful WW who willingly subjected you to degrading humiliation time and again and still stands by while you suffer takes strength/ stubbornness that most people will never approach. A WW who ridiculously claims that she had the moral courage to not sleep with another man despite having shopped for condoms, but who did not have the backbone to stand up to them as they bullied you in front of her. That strength will serve you well as you work through the trauma you've endured.
Sorry if this has come up already and I missed it. But if you do, indeed, commit to R, just be prepared for POLF (Plain of Lethal Flatness). Once you get through the first few years of struggle, you may get to a point where what you won may not seem worth it. A "so, this is what I fought for?" It's very common to have that kind of buyer's remorse. Just like this shit sandwich, you can work through that as well.
Stay strong, brother. It will get better.

Weekends kill me. Havent enjoyed one in more than a year. Ww works em, and fears coming home to whatever state Im in.

Our therapist says its likely an unidentified trigger from me being alone, and the fact that the affairs happened at work alot. I tend to think its just because I have moments alone to be myself. When I rest, thats when realizations and conclusions just come into me like the koolaid man.

I suppose its processing. But it hurts. Its not peaceful.

I know "enough" at this point, I think. I assume. I fear getting iceberged, but intellectual honesty implies the likelihood of that falling more into irrational fear than likely threat. Im disappointed that no point of terminal honesty ever came to her, that I had to glean everything from deduction while she watched me flounder. Im bitter about it, but I dont hate her for it. I still dont see how to repair trust with someone who would have had me accept the least they had to, at any point, the whole way. Big problem.

I did realize that Wws Precancerous pap that she had a LEEP procedure done on in 2015, a diagnosis of a high risk strain of HPV from biopsy, was probably from the cheating in 2014. I asked Ww about it yesterday and she was surprised I had never connected the dots on that. Me too, in retrospect. There has just been too much information to sort backwards and forwards. I suppose in 2015 I had no clue what had actually happened relative to now, and assumed the hpv was from her college days. Ah well, we dealt with it. Its all just dust at this point.

Im doing my best. Im in a kind of homeostasis of injury, near as I can tell. The highs and lows are less peaky right now, and Im thankful for the lull in volatility.

I crave a feeling of accomplishment, but having a depressed urge to go create it. Trying to create small goals and put myself to work on em to "get myself back".

[This message edited by 5bluedrops at 2:20 PM, Sunday, April 27th]

A guess: a lot of us grow up with a fear of abandonment. That might be playing into your discomfort.

You are doing good 5BDs. Your body will lead you through the healing. Please make sure you talk to her about the root injuries when they arise. It has helped my healing tremendously that my has been very open to talk when I have a trigger and hurt. It will get better over time....but don't bury.

Ask God to reveal any more truth necessary for you. I pray she grows during this and really learns to cherish you and your marriage.

Again....keep in mind it takes TIME. And when I say time I mean from the time of the final revelation whatever that is. From that point, when you actually have the objective truth, it takes 1 to 2 years minimum. Praying for you friend.🙏

Things have been mixed. Seems stable but up and down. Yesterday was heaven and this morning is hell, and she didnt do anything wrong. I grapple with anger and depression. First thoughts upon waking are the affairs, social abuse, and our FOO stuff. Every fucking time, whether its 2:00am or 5:00am. Ive become pretty adept at busying myself to reframe my headspace, but laying in bed trying to go back to sleep just doesnt work.

Getting up before Ww is ready for me to has lead to spectacularly stupid fights. I learn things I already knew when she gets angry, like that she doesnt trust me downstairs with my phone away from her at 2:00am.

Whatever, weve had those fights and are working through it. Seems to be getting better. But Im 2 years away from 40 and If I want to go downstairs in the wee hours because I cant sleep after reckoning with my wifes affairs Im going to do it because thats normal and Im ok. To her credit, this morning she was very kind about it all, and yesterday she hurt her hip and really needed the sleep.

Ww is trying hard to be a good and loving partner. And Im trying to accept what is. I can love her, want and keep the relationship and still recognize that I deserve better than I got/get. I can demand that, even if I dont ever get it.

Infidelity specialist keeps asking me if we are in agreement that we "have the whole story". I was answering, "Its as good as we are ever going to get". She keeps asking every session and now I just say, "sure. Yeah."

Im supposed to build an impact statement, that conclusively identifies how this all has affected us. Then Ww is supposed to create a reconciliatory response. Im disinclined to do this. on this subject over a year Ive written shakespeare. Ive written war and peace. Eat shit. Im sure Ill get around to it but how much weight is the betrayed really supposed to hoist? Ww freaking knows and I would like to see her show me that at this point.

I have desired recompense and amends from Ww. But I have lost hope that she will take any initiative. Not knowing what to do isnt an excuse for not trying to seek something to do. Its not an excuse for derailing every kind of recompense I have sought, led her to giving me. And I slowly am feeling the desire for those things slip away. Perhaps the hopeless feeling is getting to me. But maybe its a realization that I have allocated too much importance to her deeds and feelings, which are beyond my power to change.

As realizations dawn on me that our relationship, which I feared turning into something like this at the beginning , is more important to me than it is to her, I find myself wanting to shift my priorities, but being unable. Maybe that is temporary. Maybe I havent honestly tried. Because my heart is in a past that never was. Might never be.

Ive had alot of thoughts about sex and sexual desire, because my libido has gone in the toilet. Over the years Ive lived with my sexual desires involving Ww being mentioned, talked about, shared, roleplayed, resented, and mostly rejected in favor of more standard fare. She never brought hers to me. She reminds me of half hearted attempts to dress up in sexy clothes, times she tried to pull me to bed. Those efforts did not feel especially genuine when they happened. It felt like she was patronizing me somehow. I have a notion that she was more attracted to me being attracted to her than she actually is to me.

Nevertheless, I often did go to bed and have sex with her when she called on me. Sometimes, I didnt respond to her overtures however, and she said, "fuck it, I tried." And more or less permanently gave up. Im not sure what I didnt do to respond in the affirmative to her efforts. I wish I had found the answer.

I spent my youth and later life, always in longterm relationships with unfaithful women. From the outset, they didnt seem like cheaters. They dressed fairly conservatively, were sensitive. All of them except one were thoughtful introverts. My experience of their guilt for cheating was on a spectrum. But none of them seemed to particularly regret anything until there was a cost.

One of my resentments is the feeling of being selected as an anchor for emotional and physical affection while they "played the field". Ww isnt an exception here. She definitely loved us, liked the relationship she was in, but felt like experiencing fun outside of us was worthwhile. She was so open to it that she didnt want to lose either thing. I dont especially believe she felt that much guilt. Just fear.

I believe she had conversations with J about feeling bad about it, but "not enough to stop". And I believe she only shed the extra fun to keep the safety, when she sensed I was becoming aware enough to leave. Im not even sure that actually happened. Its possible that real world social consequences at home, at work, and problems with respect and enjoyment of the affair are what actually killed it. Its also possible that it never completely ended until he took someone else seriously.

All I have to go on is the admission that she had affairs with him and P. The things I saw happen back then in social situations. Fragmented stories of sexual encounters, events with spurious details. Evidence of hiding. Deletion. Electronic remnants, a single emailed memo to self of texts full of too-far words from obviously not-me. One friends admitted knowledge of what happened who has since blocked me for trying to learn, and a google history of obviously bad intentions.

So theres no wonder why I wanted to know more. There was more.

But ya know, fuck it. Ive got to get on with living. So thats what Im doing.

[This message edited by 5bluedrops at 12:47 PM, Friday, May 23rd]

Sounds like you have exhausted yourself. We are only human, after all.

Infidelity specialist keeps asking me if we are in agreement that we "have the whole story". I was answering, "Its as good as we are ever going to get". She keeps asking every session and now I just say, "sure. Yeah."

I hate this. That they are asking YOU this. How could you know? And that it has driven you to submission. Honestly, I have so much disdain for the counseling field at this point. I’ll just remind you, it’s very possible you don’t have the whole story. I think that’s ok. If you have enough to make progress with, that’s huge. And my stance is that if you find more lies then you should get out because it’s so fucking psychologically abusive to live in that kind of environment.

Im supposed to build an impact statement, that conclusively identifies how this all has affected us. Then Ww is supposed to create a reconciliatory response. Im disinclined to do this. on this subject over a year Ive written shakespeare. Ive written war and peace. Eat shit. Im sure Ill get around to it but how much weight is the betrayed really supposed to hoist? Ww freaking knows and I would like to see her show me that at this point.

Your wife has read THIS! What more impact statement could be authored??? And I’m pretty sure the MC knows that too, right? FFS, just copy/paste some highlights from here, you have more than done your part to express the impact.

Your wife is not showing you want you want, but she is still showing you something. Silence and inaction on these points communicates her inner reality. Maybe you have some thoughts and hopes about her feelings still being loving toward you. Maybe they are, maybe they aren’t. But her actions show she will not attend to the wounds she willfully inflicted. That either comes from a lack of care or a lack of will. Does it really matter which one? If your agony hasn’t shaken the block free already, it seems like a fleeting hope for it to still be coming.

I have desired recompense and amends from Ww. But I have lost hope that she will take any initiative. Not knowing what to do isnt an excuse for not trying to seek something to do. It’s not an excuse for derailing every kind of recompense I have sought, led her to giving me. And I slowly am feeling the desire for those things slip away. Perhaps the hopeless feeling is getting to me. But maybe it’s a realization that I have allocated too much importance to her deeds and feelings, which are beyond my power to change.

The loss of caring is the path to leaving. You can only express your hurt and needs so many times and have them dismissed. This is how love dies.

The same passages jumped out at me. I'm not sure I read your post correctly, but ...

Infidelity specialist keeps asking me if we are in agreement that we "have the whole story". I was answering, "Its as good as we are ever going to get". She keeps asking every session and now I just say, "sure. Yeah."

I read that as a question that requires a 'yes' or 'no' answer. Your answer seems to be 'no, but you're not saying it. How come?

Do you have enough info to satisfy you? If not, what are you going to do about it?

If lack of info is still bothering you, perhaps lack of info is a deal killer. I know I don't have everything. Thousands of texts were sent and deleted during the A. But I'm comfortable with what I know. What I know is enough for me, and that enabled R to proceed, even though I know my W could have pulled wool over my eyes.

Im supposed to build an impact statement, that conclusively identifies how this all has affected us.

I agree with Ink that you can build the statement from your posts in this thread.

I read 'impact statement' to mean a 'statement that identifies what hurts.' It's diagnostic. IMO, if you get all that into one space/one statement, you'll have a great start for your healing.

I have desired recompense and amends from Ww. But I have lost hope that she will take any initiative. Not knowing what to do isnt an excuse for not trying to seek something to do.

What are your requirements? What will say to you that she has provided recompense and made amends?

No one can read your mind. Besides, if you don't know what you want, you might not realize when you're getting it. And ... inability to decide what your requirements are could be a sign that the A is a deal killer.

You are a young guy. You don’t deserve to live a life filled with unhappiness, contention, less than a (seemingly) committed wife, drama and tension etc.

It just may be that this affair is something that you cannot recover from. If you have tried your best but just cannot be happy (for more than 1 day) it may be time to reconsider your decision to Reconcile.

Don’t settle. Man, that’s all I can tell you.

I can feel the resignation in your last post. Along with some very profound statements. I can see the shift.
Think hard on a separation. I think you just need away from this for awhile. Breathing room would help you.

We might see things differently, and my advice might not be exactly what you need, but I suppose the very purpose of a forum is hearing different views can be helpful.

Logically, it's hard to move forward without knowing all the facts. I'm aware some people don't want the details and that's a fair perspective but one I wouldn't share. One it's clear you don't share. You can't truly forgive what you don't fully know. I'm of the perspective that if you don't know the very worst of her indiscretions you aren't with her. You are merely with the redacted version of herself she portrays. Who would want that? Why does she want that. If she's hiding something that she fears with drive you off, any love you're giving her is a lie. It's a sham.

Living with a nagging feeling that something unforgivable is hidden, especially if you suspect it, isn't a long term tenable situation

I've spoke several times about the dangers of indecision. I fear you are falling into this trap. If you feel in your soul that you aren't getting the full truth, you need to do something.

Demand a polygraph. Make an ultimatum. Leave. Request a hall pass with the caveat she will never get the details or where or when or with whom in in a bid to make her understand the horrors of the unknown. Do something to try and change the situation. The path you're taking doesn't seem to be the way.

Ultimately, if your partner can't be open and honest with you, that's a big problem. Especially given it's importance to you personally. If that doesn't change, you'll need to seriously rethink the relationship.

It's clear to everyone that something needs to change here, don't rule out that being the martial status.

Just advice not judgment. In fact my grandad always said, "Judge not, lest ye be judged.
And it was for that reason...that he lost his job as Lord Chief Justice

[This message edited by DRSOOLERS at 8:56 PM, Friday, May 23rd]

The loss of caring is the path to leaving. You can only express your hurt and needs so many times and have them dismissed. This is how love dies.

Seconding this. Inkhulk speaks the truth that I've also experienced. I used to say that WS and I were on the slow train to divorce because he also didn't take initiative, didn't/couldn't do the things on my list of needs (MC had me write them down). I can see the station up ahead now, and I think I'm about to get off the train. It might still be in the distance for you, 5bluedrops, but it's there when you need it.

Inkhulk,

You are quite right, I couldnt know the difference between knowing everything and being in the dark, besides knowing discrepancies, which havent resolved with discussion. To be fair to the counselor and my wife, It isnt that they've beaten me into submission so much as I understand as much as I can, which is less than Id like, and Im trying to be honest about that while also saying, "lets move forward, continuing to argue over the events that lead us here isnt serving me well".

You guys saw the state of me. Its time to quit investigating, questioning. I know enough to decide what I believe.

Sisoon,

Im not going to believe as little as she says happened, and shes not going to tell me anything more. I would have loved to have found information to corroborate her narrative. I never did, and she cant think of any way to move the needle. It sucks, but its time to stop agonizing over it.

Its not a dealbreaker, but its a compromise I didnt want to make. I always knew we would both be making some of those.

As far as her amends goes, I havent been nebulous about my needs there. You said as much a few pages back, that Im mostly talking about what Id like done by her about this, and need to work on myself. Im on the way to doing that.

I created a pretty exhaustive list of needs, which has been criticized as simultaneously too much yet too vague in actionable specifics. So Ill give her a few examples of what she can do, and she will quickly run through them to the letter but not the spirit, as if to say, "see, Im doing what you want, can this go back to normal now?" She also picks up an instant resentment when I make an ask of specific acts of contrition.

So - a halfhearted display of compliance isnt what Im asking for, Im asking for a genuine and personal effort to show me she will put in as much effort on us as she put in on the hiding, lying, gaslighting, and cheating.

I mean, she calculated the risks and return on investment of getting fingered at minimum by a coworker as fulfilling enough to risk her reputation, her job, our goals, and our relationship. She thought she wouldnt have to lose any of them, but knew she might, and prioritized the affair, quite creatively, of her own initiative.

Ok.

Now I want to see how much keeping us matters to her. Now I want to see what she would risk to save us. I would like to see her try as hard as she did to engage in the affairs to make up for them. To prioritize me. And Id like her to be doing that because she wants to, not inauthentically performing because I crossed my arms and asked.

Ill know when I get there.

You guys saw the state of me. Its time to quit investigating, questioning. I know enough to decide what I believe.

Yup, we do see you. It’s heart breaking to anyone with a heart. If you decide that you have enough and you are willing to move forward with it, that is a choice to extend unearned trust to your wife. That is a gift you are giving, a risk you are taking to R. It is brave and admirable. In my view of infidelity recovery, this should now be a hard line. You have given her every chance to come clean. You are taking a risk of having your brain scrambled again if she is still lying. If there is more trickle truth, I strongly recommend you end this.

Now I want to see how much keeping us matters to her. Now I want to see what she would risk to save us. I would like to see her try as hard as she did to engage in the affairs to make up for them. To prioritize me. And Id like her to be doing that because she wants to, not inauthentically performing because I crossed my arms and asked.

Good. So what is this new phase going to look like? What are you going to do differently to see if she will fight and risk?

[This message edited by InkHulk at 3:01 PM, Tuesday, May 27th]

5BD

It is so nice to hear from you. I really like what you said, essentially "will she put the same effort into amends and you and your marriage as she did for her Betryal"? That is a great question and I hope you told it to her that way.

May I say something? I am not sure if you have done this or not, but one thing I firmly believed helped my wife understand what I was going through and what she did, was to give "role reversal illustrations". I did it over and over. Coming from different angles with different nuances, etc. Now I did not do it maliciously, but truly to help her drop into my experience. This helped her, helped break her and is helping with amends. If you have not done that, I recommend taking a stab at it.

Sure, ideally we betrayed would love our WS's to get it altogether organically. But realistically, we humans are fallen and love to protect ourselves, we don't naturally drop into those uncomfortable reflections. You can help her along. I did and it helped. In fact, those times helped me sort out and put a face to the name of my feelings too.

One more thing, I am not aware of your "belief system" but I KNOW Chr*st guided my wife and I through this. And I really sought Him to do so. He was and is faithful. Keep in mind, He knows literally ALL. He can navigate you through this. He is only a call away.

Anyway my friend. May He who made the stars comfort and heal you and your wife's hearts.

5bluedrops post #205:

Getting up before Ww is ready for me to has lead to spectacularly stupid fights. I learn things I already knew when she gets angry, like that she doesnt trust me downstairs with my phone away from her at 2:00am.

She doesn't trust YOU? The irony of that. SHE was the one who cheated!

Your WW should realize that this all falls under the umbrage of 'consequences for her actions'. She cheated and you are in serious pain and in need both space and support. If this involves going downstairs and going on the internet at 2AM then this is just what it involves.

Infidelity specialist keeps asking me if we are in agreement that we "have the whole story". I was answering, "Its as good as we are ever going to get". She keeps asking every session and now I just say, "sure. Yeah."

Is this someone you are both seeing? Infidelity specialist should instead be asking WW if *she* told *you* the full story. Sounds to me that your MC is subtly trying to give you the shakedown to consider a debt (a debt for the full truth that is)--that may or may not actually be paid off, 'settled'. The impression that I am getting is that you are being strong-armed by your MC to consider all that your WW revealed to be 'good enough for rock-n-roll', whether or not there is more to know. MC should instead be giving your WW the shakedown to be paying you with the full truth, and is she sure she hasn't left anything out.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 7:37 PM, Friday, May 30th]

To follow up on WBFA's post, outside of her cheating, your wife has a history of extremely controlling and abusive behavior. She's made you leave restaurants if there is an attractive waitress, cut off platonic female friends, deleted contacts from your phone, etc.

The fact that she is instigating explosive fights with you because you can't sleep (because of your trauma-induced insomnia) and need to go downstairs with your phone shows that she has made no meaningful changes toward being a better partner. The only thing she cares about is control: controlling what you know and done know, what you post and don't post, who you talk to and talk to, where you seek comfort and advice from, etc.

I know I sound like a broken record at this point, but I'll say it again: you don't need MC, you need IC. You need to fix what's broken in you and build yourself so you're no longer willing to tolerate this treatment.

Forget about trying to get your wife to "prioritize" you. You need to start prioritizing yourself. All of this time and emotional energy that you have wasted in trying to drag this remorseless and recalcitrant mule to water would be much better invested in focusing solely on your own physical, emotional, and mental wellbeing. Start exercising more. Pick up a hobby. Make new friends. Just do things on your own that make you happy.

But be warned: if you follow through with my advice, there's a good chance that you're going to see an even worse side of your wife than you ever thought was possible. If she starts to see that you're bettering yourself and that she is no longer your sole source of happiness and validation, she might very well do everything in her power drag you down. She might not be conscious of it, but I think she gets enjoyment from watching you struggle to keep your head above water. She feels very validated by all the suffering that you endure to remain in a relationship with her. The fact that she took pleasure in letting other men humiliate you in her presence is proof of that.

If you don't believe me, then I advise you to check out OlderandHappier's post "I fear my W has getting a crush on someone…MIcrocheating?". Like you, he has suffered years of the water torture of trickle truth, rugsweeping, pick-me dancing, and playing the role of Columbo. If you read his update on p37 of that epic thread, you will see that his WW blew her top and threatened D right when he started doing things for himself and going on a trip abroad alone (something she does constantly). I suspect your wife's reaction would be similar, if not worse.

[This message edited by BluerThanBlue at 9:19 PM, Friday, May 30th]

Well, yesterday was the 11th anniversary of the night I discovered Ww deleted J’s texts from her phone after seeing her get them at the bar that evening when we were all sitting together. It was when my fears solidified into deep suspicion, all those years ago. Yesterday was a strange day. I was on a service call in a customers home when, unprompted, they showed me a painting in their hallway, and told me the story of how they came to have it. The man who owned the painting before was made to give it away by his wife, because it was a gift to him, painted by his AP. Life is funny in this way. I snapped a shot of it and now its my phones wallpaper.

Some days ago after I whined about not wanting to make an impact statement in my post in this thread, Ww authored one from my perspective. It is really good. She showed me she understands really well. Its a big deal that she did that.

Thursday, our counselor canceled our appointment for that afternoon. Her dog had to be put down. I so understand. But we really could have used the session. Unfortunate in so many ways.

That evening, I drew a hard line in the sand. Essentially, my wife has amnesty till the end of the year to shore up the truth and extent about the affairs that I dont know or understand. On January 1st onwards, Any major gamechanging information about the affairs coming out will result in separation and divorce. Barring that, we continue to work on ourselves and the relationship and we’re set.

If everything was as she says, she doesnt need to do anything more than continue to work on things with me.

If it isnt, shes got time to sort her self out and get us on the correct page.

If she tries to whiteknuckle through, she lives under the sword of Damocles.

Whatever the outcome, Its her responsibility. in her hands.

I’ll keep working on myself, and contributing to the relationship and nurturing the love. Day by day, open mind towards better than expected outcomes, observing our progress.

[This message edited by 5bluedrops at 2:26 PM, Saturday, May 31st]

The end of the year is 7 months and a day away, 7 months if you are in Australia/New Zealand I suppose.

That is an awfully long time is my point.

Are you sure your WW gets it though, or is getting it? Actiona speak louder than words...

I don’t know why we all keep assuming that our brain is not a part of our body. It is beautifully designed. When there’s danger it loads us up with cortisol and adrenaline. Those are the get out of Dodge ASAP hormones. Your primitive brain, or the lizard brain, does not recognize whether the danger is a lion or someone cheating on you. It just knows you’ve got something dangerous in your life and it wants you to get rid of it one way or the other. You can run, you can hide, or you can fight or you can do what a lot of of us BS do and do absolutely nothing. What happens is there’s a soup of bad and good hormones flooding our brains up and down, up and down, up and down. We are always hyper alert because the danger is lurking. That’s where you are. That’s why you can’t let go because your body, your brain inside your body, recognizes your wife is dangerous. I don’t know if she still is or not but your brain has certainly not let go of that.

Lots of people on here talk about depression, but I guarantee you it’s coming from anxiety. If you treat the anxiety often times the depression leaves. There’s been a ton of research done that going outside and doing something is so healing that that should be on your agenda every day. You can walk or bike or hike or do something a lot more sedentary, like sit under an umbrella and watch the world go by or you can garden. There are things you can do outdoors without baking in the sun that will give you such a sense of peace. Listening to birds, looking at butterflies, just talking to a neighbor. If you’ve got friends find some that like to laugh and get you a good belly laugh every day. Find the things that you can do to get that brain of yours to let go of that inability to find happiness.

I understand the amnesty. It’s a strange concept in some ways, but it seems to be a practical necessity for a BS who wants to give their WS time pursue R. There is no right or wrong answer on the timeframe, if that feels appropriate to you then so be it. I just strongly recommend drawing a line somewhere. I believe the worst possible outcome to infidelity is to get trapped in the place you are now indefinitely. This is not a wound that time alone heals, there are testimonies all over this forum of that truth. Please, man, don’t waste your life perpetually stuck in this mess.