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This dad is not impressing me.

Then I can only assume it’s because you can’t empathize and sympathize with his complete lack of power to be there for his child. Remember, here in Canada, parents and citizens have no power to “misgender” or speak poorly of the trans community or they’ll face the human rights tribunals.

[This message edited by Loukas at 6:49 PM, April 22nd (Thursday)]

So a penis automatically makes a person unsafe?

Well its typically a penis being violently thrust into a woman/man during a rape. I know there's "object rape" as well, but usually a penis. That doesn't mean that ALL men rape but why can't biological woman and transwoman who have transitioned be permitted a reasonable expectation if not being exposed to males when in a vulnerable or exposed situation?

I didnt have the full details of the father If that's the father Loukas is talking about.

Then I can only assume it’s because you can’t empathize and sympathize with his complete lack of power to be there for his child. Remember, here in Canada, parents and citizens have no power to “misgender” or speak poorly of the trans community or they’ll face the human rights tribunals.

I empathize more with the child being treated that way by his father. That's true. That's where my empathy is. The idea of outing your trans child when they ask you not to do so just doesn't engender any empathy from me. He could be there for his child, but he has chosen to battle with his child.

[This message edited by DevastatedDee at 6:54 PM, April 22nd (Thursday)]

When the doctors first brought up growth hormone therapy with us wh was completely against it. We had many long talks about the repercussions of doing it vs not doing it. This also required puberty delaying medication IF that started. As a mother i wanted what was best for my child but i also needed to listen and fully understand wh point if view. Since the doctors said we had time, 3 years at least to decide, we opted to wait for dd to make the choice herself.

We do not know what went on with that father and mother. The true details and since theres a media ban on getting HIS side of the story, well, its unfair to judge him.

Well its typically a penis being violently thrust into a woman/man during a rape. I know there's "object rape" as well, but usually a penis. That doesn't mean that ALL men rape but why can't biological woman and transwoman who have transitioned be permitted a reasonable expectation if not being exposed to males when in a vulnerable or exposed situation?

Well is the transwoman with a penis going to start waving it around during group therapy? How would you even know? You have a woman who needs help because she was raped and you're going to ask to look at her genitals? Transwomen are so often the victims of the exact same kinds of sexual assault and rape. The last thing a raped transwoman is going to want to do is wave her penis around and threaten everyone with it. She's going to be as messed up and traumatized and in need of help as everyone else in that room.

When the doctors first brought up growth hormone therapy with us wh was completely against it. We had many long talks about the repercussions of doing it vs not doing it. This also required puberty delaying medication IF that started. As a mother i wanted what was best for my child but i also needed to listen and fully understand wh point if view. Since the doctors said we had time, 3 years at least to decide, we opted to wait for dd to make the choice herself.

We do not know what went on with that father and mother. The true details and since theres a media ban on getting HIS side of the story, well, its unfair to judge him.

Wait, you have a trans child?

Well if shes transitioned and not like the obvious male transwoman i know then it wouldn't be obvious she is trans to the biological woman in the room. And not as issue. However i still believe that there should be instances where males are not present in the same situation as non males. Immediately after a trauma involving a male a woman shouldn't be asked to discuss it with a male. She should have the option to give a statement and have an exam by another female.

Wait, you have a trans child?

Oh no sorry.

Dd is female. She just didnt grow on her own. She started kindergarten the size if a 2-3 year old. Was denied access to a school bus because they said she was to small to ride in a vehicle without being in a car seat. She had a special van service pick her up and we supplied a car seat.

At 12 years old now she has been doing growth hormone therapy going on two years and has grown significantly. Still not even close to her peers though.

She will always be small. She also has severe bowl issues, a total lack of vit D (on 1000ui/day) and her and two siblings tested positive for a rate genetic syndrome but do not have enough characteristics to get a formal diagnosis. My kids are a medical mystery.

Oh, got you! I'm glad she's got you there supporting her and helping her! That's a lot on a kid.

Oh man there are days she hates giving herself her shots but she keeps trekking along. This also required tonnes of red tape and jumping through hoops for her to get this, funding, approval, testing. I understand the "struggles" people face.

Well if shes transitioned and not like the obvious male transwoman i know then it wouldn't be obvious she is trans to the biological woman in the room.

Typically, the only way for a transgender woman to be physically indistinguishable from a cisgender woman is to have access to hormone therapy before or at puberty. Otherwise, with a deepening voice, facial hair, enlargement of the adam's apple, broadening of shoulders, and increased height, it's very difficult to achieve. Some women succeed through voice coaching, electrolysis, careful makeup, etc, but these are expensive, time consuming processes that would be onerous in a shelter setting.

It seems cruel to deny services because a woman didn't have support and access to early treatment (or simply chose not to cut her penis off). Imagine hating the masculine characteristics of your body and then being told, 'Sorry, if you just looked more feminine, we'd let you join the rape survivors group."

In a city as large as say Toronto with multiple shelters/centres, if ONE wanted to be of service to biological woman only i don't see a problem with that. Again, there is nothing wrong with having an expectation of providing an environment free of males (parts) in a setting where woman are vulnerable and or exposed.

I don't think it's about the genitals so much as the presence - a very tall female-presenting person with a five-o'clock shadow and a deep voice who perhaps has not fully transitioned for instance - in the case of that individual wishing to volunteer as a counsellor to women who have just been raped.

Anywho, a transwoman brought this to the courts in Canada - she wanted the rape relief shelter to take her as a volunteer and it was argued up to the Supreme Court.

The Supreme Court ruled that under the Canadian Charter of Rights, this falls under 'freedom of association' and that the organization was within its rights to not choose this person to volunteer, and that it was not discrimination.

The court also awarded costs to the organization which the plaintiff declined to pay.

[This message edited by FaithFool at 9:00 PM, April 22nd (Thursday)]

I don't think it's about the genitals so much as the presence - a very tall female-presenting person with a five-o'clock shadow and a deep voice who perhaps has not fully transitioned for instance - in the case of that individual wishing to volunteer as a counsellor to women who have just been raped.

So she's being judged for her appearance. Too tall, not feminine enough...well if that isn't womanhood, I don't know what is.

Can I ask a question from a few pages back?

Did I understand that someone asked, “Why should anyone need to know what genitals a person has?”

At this point in my life, I do not need to know this. But when I was choosing a mate, I’m trying to understand why it is insensitive or discriminatory… As a female… To want to know that the person I’m considering dating and developing a relationship with, is a male, because that is my preference.

In other words, do we now need to meet perspective companions and part of the initial conversation is trying to find another way of figuring out if this is the gender that you are interested in developing a relationship with?

Trying to state this in a way that does not sound critical and judge mental.

In thinking it through, I am trying to understand how couples find each other. I know attraction is just that… Attraction. If I am interested in marrying a male and having a “traditional“ male female parenting pair, how do I find out who falls into that category?

Is this a question that is included on social dating site? And if not, how many people assume that someone is of a certain gender, and then are surprised when that isn’t the case when they meet?

What am I missing here? I don’t even know if my question is clear.

In other words, do we now need to meet perspective companions and part of the initial conversation is trying to find another way of figuring out if this is the gender that you are interested in developing a relationship with?

Trying to state this in a way that does not sound critical and judge mental.

You did fine, IMO. It's a good question and one that divides the trans community. I know trans folk who believe that this is an important thing to disclose early on to avoid awkward and/or dangerous interactions, and I know trans folk who are hurt and offended that a casual acquaintance feels entitled to know about their private parts. I like the boundary that "I need to tell someone what's in my pants as soon as there's a possibility they'll be taking them off." But of course, we can't always see that might happen when we first meet someone. It's a very difficult, messy thing for a trans person to navigate. And tragically, there are cases of trans people being badly beaten or killed for not properly threading the needle of when to tell and when to conceal.

This is one area where I think the growing flexibility of "pansexual" attitudes is a good thing. My kid's generation shrugs at a lot of this complexity and acts like our generation is overthinking it. My son gravitates to communities where he knows that even if attraction isn't returned, it won't become a dangerous situation. I'm lucky to live in an area where such bubbles are possible. For a lot of trans people, this is one of the isolating problems that contributes to their high suicide rate.

However i still believe that there should be instances where males are not present in the same situation as non males. Immediately after a trauma involving a male a woman shouldn't be asked to discuss it with a male. She should have the option to give a statement and have an exam by another female

.

It’s funny how if you just change a couple of words around this whole conversation sounds totally different.

Imagine if we were talking about a white woman was victimized in some way by a black person. Raped, robbed or assaulted, by a black person (male or female). And we tried to make the argument:

“ However i still believe that there should be instances where black people are not present in the same situation as whites. Immediately after a trauma involving a black person a white woman shouldn't be asked to discuss it with a black person. She should have the option to give a statement and have an exam by another white person.”

Sounds a lot less reasonable because time is a revelator. Yet arguments exactly like that one used to be regularly made not that very long ago. Luckily we have begun to come to a place of understanding that people are actually unique individuals and that painting an entire group of people with a broad brush based on one experience or the actions one individual who happens to fall within that group, is pretty fucked up.

Maybe one day we will get there on gender. Until then we will keep having these sorts of conversations.

HoldingTogether

Ok since you brought it up....

Would it be ok to call all non whites "coloured" instead of who they actually are? African American, Asian American, etc.

I have non white friends so please dont call me rasist.

Grouping EVERYONE thats not white under one umbrella? Is that Ok?

Thats how it feels to me as a biological woman when i am called Some People during discussions about Biological functions.

Also, why do we have one way glass for victims to identify their perpetrator? Or using photos to identify? To protect the victim.

As i posted in thr previous page:

“For reasons of safety and security, it is imperative that biological women and girls, and fully transitioned transgender females, have spaces where they can associate free from the presence of individuals with male genitals. This is particularly so in situations where women and girls are exposed or vulnerable,” Allison Kindle Pejovic, an attorney with the Justice Centre, said in a statement.

HT I was thinking the same thing.

Grouping EVERYONE thats not white under one umbrella?

All 'whites' are not homogeneous either. Neither are all 'Asians (Asian Americans). Neither all Africans (African Americans). People all come from different places/DNA lineages. So your distinction doesn't really hold up to the same scrutiny.

Also, why do we have one way glass for victims to identify their perpetrator? Or using photos to identify? To protect the victim.

Also to protect the suspect.

So your distinction doesn't really hold up to the same scrutiny.

Ya ok thats right since my brother is a lot darker skinned than i am. Wouldnt even know we are siblings.

I dont see why its so wrong for the sexes to have separate places they can commune. Thats my opinion. That is all.