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I dont know if my wh wasnt mature. He ran his own business all through high-school and after, worked two jobs plus did that and did educational presentations. Hard working, determined, well educated in his field.

I dont believe marrying young is a bad thing. I was engaged before in my early twenties (caught him cheating). Many of those i went to high-school with were married or parents before they graduated and are successful and happy now.

Every parent i met while dd was in the NICU, regardless of age, was NOT prepared to be a parent of a NICU baby. I sure as well wasnt. We even talked about how there needs to be an in hospital support group. Wh definitely went into denial. He shut himself off from me and things went downhill from there.

My deceased WH was very responsible too. Joined the service and moved across country right after he turned 19. Held down several jobs too prior to his tour. Stayed in the service for 9 years then went onto another career where the pay was awesome,
at least "I" think it was.

He was supposed to be retiring after 27 years this coming March. He did quite well for us from a financial standpoint too. No arguing about that! Great money, medical and all. I am well cared for the rest of my life. I'm still undecided whether I feel that this was a blessing or a curse! Lol I am going to go with feeling blessed🙌, only for my kids sake. They are in their 20's now but they still need me for emotional support and friendship, always.

But these weren't my issues with my deceased WH anyway. My issues with him were that his coping mechanisms were not from an emotionally mature standpoint, just as yours wasn't (and isn't) either. You said that he shut down and turned away from you when dealing with your first child's medical issues in NICU. How did you handle your situation at the time you were going through the same thing?

My daughter was very sick in the first year of her life too. It was a very scary time for me. I remember during that time (24 years ago) we were having to drive back and forth to the hospital at least two times a day and the hospital was at least 20 miles of twisting turning roads from where we lived at the time. And because at the time my attention wasn't on my WH because I thought we were going to lose my daughter and instead of realizing how dire the situation was, he was seeking outside sexual gratification from a COW who was willing to take care of his immediate needs. Because in that moment he felt rejected by me because I couldn't keep my focus 100% on him. And guess what she gave to him?

And my now deceased WH did the same thing five years prior when I was VERY sick with morning sickness and throwing up at least 6 times a day for the first several months. I couldn't even get up off the floor, could barely eat or drink water. I look back and now realize that I should have been in the hospital it was that bad.

And you know how my now deceased WH handled this situation? He easily compartmentalized this situation by casually telling me that he was going to go play golf (go and see his AP) and left me on the floor to tend to myself on multiple occasions. I mean, I could have died! But his sexual needs at the time were not being met and his needs were much more important then the fact that his very sick wife and growing child were in significant danger. So you see, I do have some understanding of what you are going through.

So with that said, while my now deceased WH may have been a great financial provider, his coping mechanisms sucked. His coping mechanisms were not in line with a mature grown adult man, just as yours isn't either. And from the outside looking in, it seems like yours also has and is carrying a heavy load that he wasn't prepared for from a mature standpoint. And reading through your posts also backs my theory up when you said that his zest for life is gone and he is only 35 years old! Way too young to feel that way. I also read through his few posts he had and what he had to say was pretty much nothing. And you all have been on this site since 2012.

Does he read when you post? And our comments? Does he even realize that his emotionally immature, stunted behavior is hurting you? Do you want to see him change his ways? Your last post kind of indicates to me I don't know... just bizarre.

I think that he has A LOT of resentment. Instead of enjoying his 20's growing and maturing into a man (I feel exactly the same about my deceased WH) and through no fault of either of you he was forced into situations that he wasn't prepared to deal with in a proper manner, way overwhelming for him and so he did what he knew how to do to deal with these issues, resort to poor coping mechanisms. Not to say that if the two of you married later in life and still had the same experiences, it would have made a difference but it's worth a shot to look at your situation from this standpoint.

No blame to anyone but just trying to help you see things from a different perspective. I also was on that crazy merry go round that you currently are on. I HATED IT! And I suppose what bothers me most about your story is that your kid's are involved too and I promise you that they too are having to pay the price of yours and your WH struggles in your marriage. Ask me how I know? I sadly grew up in dysfunction and chaos and apparently stepped right back into it once I married my wayward spouse.

But also with that said, the three of us are doing really well now dispite my setbacks because I am showing them, partly out of a responsibility to them and myself that I can come out of this and be better. And I think if you also want change, something will have to change. And I especially hope that it will be your WH that wants this change for himself first, then you and your kid's.

But unfortunately I also get the feeling that he thinks his behavior is okay and acceptable. Becoming an emotionally mature man takes being open, honest and vulnerable and I'm not so sure he has it in him to allow his guard down and to open up and become vulnerable. What do you think?

You said that he shut down and turned away from you when dealing with your first child's medical issues in NICU. How did you handle your situation at the time you were going through the same thing?

I was a total basket case at first. I was in a room with two other new moms so wh couldn't stay with me. That first night the nurse was waking one of the moms to breast feed her baby and she was just whining and bitching that she wanted to sleep. I had only had a brief look at dd before she was rushed away to the NICU. I hadnt even held her. I just started sobbing. The nurse took me to the NICU right then and i was able to hold dd.

The doctors didnt know what was wrong but "family " blamed me for dd. So i focused on doing everything the doctors said to do.

My daughter was very sick in the first year of her life too. It was a very scary time for me. I remember during that time (24 years ago) we were having to drive back and forth to the hospital at least two times a day and the hospital was at least 20 miles of twisting turning roads from where we lived at the time. And because at the time my attention wasn't on my WH because I thought we were going to lose my daughter and instead of realizing how dire the situation was, he was seeking outside sexual gratification from a COW who was willing to take care of his immediate needs. Because in that moment he felt rejected by me because I couldn't keep my focus 100% on him. And guess what she gave to him?

This is where i totally draw a line at taking any guilt. Wh and i had done prenatal classes, read books. We discussed IN depth the way dads feel abandoned and rejected when the baby comes home. We had agreed that if he ever felt that way he was to TALK ABOUT IT!

ALSO he cant claim we didnt have sex. Because my first night home from the hospital he wanted and received...5 days after i had a c section. Sex was never denied. Even when it should. Have been...!

And from the outside looking in, it seems like yours also has and is carrying a heavy load that he wasn't prepared for from a mature standpoint. And reading through your posts also backs my theory up when you said that his zest for life is gone and he is only 35 years old! Way too young to feel that way. I also read through his few posts he had and what he had to say was pretty much nothing. And you all have been on this site since 2012.

He is 36. Actually dont know his join date. Mine is 2011.

Agree that he is shallow and doesnt put in any effort here. He "isnt comfortable talking to strangers " ... but was perfectly find to spill his guts out to his ow's.

Does he read when you post? And our comments? Does he even realize that his emotionally immature, stunted behavior is hurting you? Do you want to see him change his ways? Your last post kind of indicates to me I don't know... just bizarre.

We had a no reading each others post rule. I doubt he even reads here anymore.

Do i want him to change. I want him to know better than to show me situations HE has put me in. I dont want to see "funny videos" about cheating. They arent funny to me.

I think that he has A LOT of resentment. Instead of enjoying his 20's growing and maturing into a man (I feel exactly the same about my deceased WH) and through no fault of either of you he was forced into situations that he wasn't prepared to deal with in a proper manner, way overwhelming for him and so he did what he knew how to do to deal with these issues, resort to poor coping mechanisms.

I think thats true.

Its also true that i was/am just as resentful that i have had to cope with it all as a single parent when i am Not one.

He wanted everyone else to believe he was such a great father but he totally wasnt the one being strong for our daughter.

But unfortunately I also get the feeling that he thinks his behavior is okay and acceptable. Becoming an emotionally mature man takes being open, honest and vulnerable and I'm not so sure he has it in him to allow his guard down and to open up and become vulnerable. What do you think?

Funny how he was vulnerable and open and romantic and all the things a mature man is before we married and had dd. I think he had the hate his mother has for me drilled into him so much while we lived with them and has so much resentment he doesnt really care about me anymore.

This is where i totally draw a line at taking any guilt. 

In case anyone reads that as snarky it isnt.

The idea that a man can cheat becauze his wife had a c section so he isnt getting laid was thrown in my face by many and is not an excuse to cheat, ever!

Poor baby daddy isnt getting 100% attention due to a baby makes me want to

Life isnt easy. Things dont go as planned, we dont always get what we want to do.

But marriage and family is no excuse to screw around. I know many young couples who never had infidelity touch them. My wh is just selfish.

I have to do everything and no not going to be the one to pull the plug on my dreams.

If you're living your dream then what's the problem?

If you're living your dream then what's the problem?

My life dream wasn't to have someone throw things, i have specifically asked them to avoid, In My Face.

Lost and Bound,

Are you fucking kidding me with that post?

You are correct Dragn, you did register May 2011, almost 11 years ago this coming May.

It sounds like you are going to have to work towards acceptance and that there is nothing you can do to change him. Just look the other way when he says or does hurtful things, instead of engaging him in conversation.

I felt so trapped in my marriage because I financially relied on him. And he knew this and also knew that I wouldn't leave him. I was hoping for change but at the same time I was coming to terms that this was my life and I was going to have to learn to deal with it.

But I also was learning to slowly back away from him. It was a really sad and confusing time for me because I loved him but he continuously did things to hurt and bring me down (like you WH is doing) all the way up to his death, flirting with the nurses and other workers at the hospital. Our marriage should have been respectful and good but he made decisions that destroyed my love and trust for him.

Hopefully, something will change for you Dragn and your WH wakes up and realizes that he has a wonderful wife and four wonderful kids to live for and to cherish. Without family there is pretty much nothing imo. And I hope that he eventually realizes all of the pain and damage that he is doing to his family. None of you deserve this. I am sorry for you.

I felt so trapped in my marriage

I dont feel trapped. Just that I'm babysitting someone elses brat that i can't spank lol

Well maybe you do have the right idea in seeing him as a child. Lol
Something keeps you there.

I felt trapped because I loved mine and I financially relied on him. But it was hell a lot of the time because his attention was always on other women, something I didn't notice early on in the marriage.

Knowing what I know now though, I NEVER would allow myself to deal with this kind of behavior ever again. No way. I'm very sorry for the outcome of our lives together but also have ome sort of peace now. I did not deserve what he put me though. I felt helpless when he was acting out, just as you do too. It broke me and I am now also aware that he loved causing me pain for whatever his reasons were. Again. I am sorry for you.

of course I wasn't kidding. If you find it offensive, please articulate and lmk why, exactly.
There's nothing noble about clinging to a "dream" when it has no relationship to reality. Not really a dream more like a fantasy.
I've been reading OP's posts for years, and nothing changes. Nothing about OP's posts makes farm life sound remotely good or fun.
Also, I think OP kids herself that she's not in love with her husband, doesn't care that he has no respect for her, and is just staying for a roomie relationship and the small-farm-life. reading her posts it seems more like WH has a lot of control over her emotions.

Nothing about OP's posts makes farm life sound remotely good or fun.

I beg to differ. Sorry i do not post every detail of life here. Anything outside of OT and Fun &Games is infidelity related so not a good way to judge farm life.

Anything in OT is well Off Topic. And no again not going to over share all the amazing, wonderful shit that happens.

F & G you'll find tarantula pics so beware a thread i start in there thats not SPF lol

I just went through the over 2000 photos on my phone to select a few and edit any identifying stuff.

Enjoy:

I'm not trying to be hurtful or make you defensive. You don't need to convince me of anything. It's your life. I think sometimes people who are in a bad relationship kinda get into "defending" the relationship, because that's more gratifying than the relationship itself.

.

I think sometimes people who are in a bad relationship kinda get into "defending" the relationship, because that's more gratifying than the relationship itself.

I am not defending the relationship.

I am defending my reason for NOT divorcing and losing MY dream of owning a farm.

I dont care if YOU dont think my farm life is fun, enjoyable or worthy of living. Its not your life, you're correct.

Its mine.

To ask whats the problem then when it's been clearly stated is rude.

SI used to be a place those who experienced infidelity could come for support, to vent and ask questions.

I ASKED A QUESTION.

Instead of answers (ok there were a few people actually who answered,thanks BTW), i got first thread jacked and then 2×4'd for not divorcing.

Geez.

[This message edited by DragnHeart at 6:45 AM, Sunday, January 16th]

I've struggled with my weight my whole life. I know what I need to do for it - I need to not eat like a trash panda and exercise more. I'm really bad at both of those things cus mexican food is delicious and snuggling on the couch is way more fun than working out. I don't complain about being overweight generally because it is my choices that make it so and until I decide to choose differently that's where I'm at.

Now imagine if I joined an online support forum for overeating and started a vent thread about my jeans not fitting and got all sorts of responses about low fat recipes and fun exercises, but I just responded with "I'm never eating low fat" or "I refuse to exercise, period" or "well it doesn't matter if these things helped another poster lose weight, I just know it would never work for me". How then would anyone be able to offer me any support in that case?

That's kind of how I feel trying to offer any support or wisdom for you here.

I get your very firm never-divorce stance. Is that what I would choose? Hell naw, I'd live in a refrigerator box in fucking Calcutta before I'd ever live with my xwh again. But I completely understand that you have legitimate and valid reasons for yourself to stay. I'm not suggesting you get a divorce or throwing any shade at all on your reasons for staying married because those are very personal and unique for each individual.

However by taking options off the table, you're also naturally eliminating possibilities for yourself. So you're not divorcing and that is what it is. But at this point this is the situation you are actively choosing to exist in. So what does that leave for you? As I see it: a steadily antagonistic relationship with your husband, or accepting that this is your bed for now and trying to just stop reacting at all when he baits you. Neither of those choices sound very healthy for your long-term mental and emotional well-being imho, but if you can just go grey rock with him I think it would be more livable for you. I think finding a way to rearrange things and get into your own room would also be good for you.

Or another question is how has your wh changed in the 11 years you've been here? How is he any different than the wh that made you sign up here in the first place? Cus I can tell you from an objective outsider's perspective, he hasn't really done any work or changed much at all in the 3+ years I've been here that I can see. And you're still venting about the same things he is still doing in that time frame as well (not blaming you one bit for venting, cus living with that shit year after year after year would make anyone vent). Again just mho, but you don't really ever sound "happy" to me Dragn and you very much deserve to be happy. As pretty as your farm is, what is living with this situation costing you in terms of your health and sanity and well-being?

My next question is this. You started this vent to ask if waywards are clueless. You've been here a lot longer than I have. You KNOW they are and you know you're still married to a white-knuckle wayward who likely won't ever change. I like to be supportive and helpful, but often times it feels like any help or perspective offered just gets shot down. So what specific help or support are you needing right now?

I apologize in advance, this is going to be long.

Now imagine if I joined an online support forum for overeating and started a vent thread about my jeans not fitting and got all sorts of responses about low fat recipes and fun exercises, but I just responded with "I'm never eating low fat" or "I refuse to exercise, period" or "well it doesn't matter if these things helped another poster lose weight, I just know it would never work for me". How then would anyone be able to offer me any support in that case?

I wasn't even going to touch on this but why not.

I actually follow a fitness trainer who hates the idea that everyone must look a certain way to be accepted.  In a support group for over eaters, the responses  wouldn't be to eat low fat.  It would be to determine the underlying causes for overeating.  

Theres other parts in your post i want to address but i want to respond to the following first.

My next question is this. You started this vent to ask if waywards are clueless. You've been here a lot longer than I have. You KNOW they are and you know you're still married to a white-knuckle wayward who likely won't ever change. I like to be supportive and helpful, but often times it feels like any help or perspective offered just gets shot down. So what specific help or support are you needing right now?

The following replies are what i needed.   I am 100% sure i missed a few and i stopped copying the post details after page 5.   Hopefully they are in order.  I mistakenly closed the page a few times and had to start over.

Getting some validation that how i feel (my feelings being dismissed) isnt crazy.

Page 1

20yrsagoBS

Mine is definitely that clueless.

There’s a phrase called Tenderness Pimping these jerks is to get people to pay attention to them.

It doesn’t always start of with the intent to obtain sexual attention. It can morph into that is they don’t have good boundaries.

It looks similar to what my Cheater does. He wants people to pay attention to him, even males. He just wants to be the center of attention. Ick

taken4granted

It doesn’t really matter the orientation of the person that he’s flirting with. He’s clearly hitting on this person and you are being triggered, but instead of getting remorse and understanding, you are getting more of the same crap.

leafields

WS - yes it's normal for them to be so clueless. They haven't worked towards setting up appropriate boundaries, so they overshare.

Hang in there, Dragn.

prissy4lyfe

Dragnheart I am a huge fan and I am sorry your husband doesn't get it.

You are uncomfortable with his behavior. And given his unchecked need for attention I wouldn't fully rely on his interpretation of events. She may be like this with the group and due to your husband lack of self reflection he is internalizing. He may also, due to her sexual orientation, see her as a challenge to engage.

Page 2

Breachoftrust

FYI I was told my WH AP was a lesbian so I had "nothing" to worry about. Just another lie to keep her from seeming like a threat until it was too late.

MIgander

Boy this struck me as GASLIGHTING and is manipulative. My BH did this to me and the kids a LOT, until I would call it out for what it was. I would point out the gaslighting to him when he would tell my son to either suck it up, not make a big deal of something, or "you can't possibly be THAT hurt." To be fair my son is a bit of a drama king...

Anyway, the point is, I started pointing out to him, "We are allowed to feel what we feel. They are our own feelings, not yours." I used to have to do this a lot, but he's since left off telling people how they should feel. Instead we work on expressing our feelings appropriately and learning how to calm ourselves down so they don't overwhelm us.

emergent8

Dragon - it sounds like the issue is that you do not trust your husband's boundaries/need for attention from with women (particularly with women he works with). Based on his history, that sounds pretty reasonable in the circumstances.

When my husband started mentioning the COW more frequently in conversation I noticed that he was quick to bring up the fact that she was married. The rationale, of course, was that because she was married, I should not see her as a threat. Guess how that turned out?

Page 3

CaptainRogers

In response to the original question, I can't speak for all WSs, but I can speak for mine.

Yes. Yes, there can be a crazy level of cluelessness, regardless of the time post-D-day.

Underserving

This is obviously a trauma response. You feel unsafe with your husband having any kind of personal relationship with a female. That’s understandable given all that he has put you through. It is perfectly reasonable to ask him not to have any kind of contact with her that isn’t work related. It’s perfectly reasonable to be triggered by his constantly talking about her, and his unwillingness to stop doing so. All the more reason if he is communicating with her in a secretive manner.

Page 4

ISurvivedSoFar

(((DragnHeart)))

I so hate that he will use any deflection to escape accountability. He was wrong particularly because he brought up the sexual orientation rather than address the concerns of violating your privacy and attempting to garner closeness from the other person that is inappropriate. Period.

He isn't listening because he cannot face himself and instead tries anything to escape. He wants to escape what he did to you, what he's done to you in the past, and what he continues to do to you. He absolutely cowers away from anything that resembles accountability in every way and that leave you alone and hurting. I am so very sorry that he hurts you each and every time he tries to run away from owning his shit.

You have been heard.

Page 5

Krystlebefore entire post

Dragn - I rarely post but this one has struck a chord.

Page 6

Cooley2here
secondtime
Hurtmyheart
crazyblindsided

I need to go play with the text size settings. My eyes are going crossed after all of that. My optometrist appointment is in Feb. I cant wait for New glasses.

but if you can just go grey rock with him I think it would be more livable for you.

The grey rock method involves communicating in an uninteresting way when interacting with abusive or manipulative people. The name "grey rock" refers to how those using this approach become unresponsive, similar to a rock.

The technique may involve:

• avoiding interactions with the abusive person

• keeping unavoidable interactions brief

• giving short or one-word answers to questions

• communicating in a factual, unemotional way

The aim is to cause the abusive person to lose interest and stop their antagonistic behavior, to protect a person’s emotional well-being.

I have been doing exactly each point listed above!  Every single one! 

I communicated very factually  that i did not want to hear about his interactions with the woman he works with.  Any of them!

I have not responded to the times he has continued to speak of her.  Typically do what im doing or stick my nose in my phone.

I came here to ask and vent about it instead.

Or another question is how has your wh changed in the 11 years you've been here? How is he any different than the wh that made you sign up here in the first place? Cus I can tell you from an objective outsider's perspective, he hasn't really done any work or changed much at all in the 3+ years I've been here that I can see. 

He has made many changes.

He used to lock his phone, i had no access to his social media, emails etc. (If you go back far enough you will find that i managed to find and access all of his secret emails. My IC at the time called me a "master PI". )

He has since come to realize that me having access isnt a violation of his privacy but a way to relieve suspicion and help gain trust.  Not that it always works.  Again he is "clueless" that his online interactions and behaviour is hurtful.

He is accountable for his time and whereabouts.

Again just mho, but you don't really ever sound "happy" to me Dragn and you very much deserve to be happy. As pretty as your farm is, what is living with this situation costing you in terms of your health and sanity and well-being?

We each define "happy" differently.  My happy list is long and is there.  But SI   (all but OT and F&G)   isnt for all those "happy" things.

Its for those moments when the infidelity  demon raises its head.  Its not 24/7 infidelity  here.   But it does come up and in those moments  i reach out here.

As for my sanity.  Every bit of blood, sweat, pain, heartache, exhaustion  i experience with my farm i also experience the most amazing sun rises/sunsets,  the joy of giving animals a place to live out their days well fed, loved and taken care of,  giving my children the opportunity  to learn things they wouldn't in a city, all of us taking long walks in the forest finding snakes and salamanders, learning about plants. Growing my own food, raising my own chickens, turkeys, pigs.  Fresh eggs.  Thinking about attending the bee keeping seminars this year.  Piling up all of the snow with the tractor and making an awesome sled hill for the kids.

Theres more happy than i post about. 

Wh and i have been discussing the filtration issues for our aquatic reptiles this morning.  Hes working on one filter now.  The older kids have done the feeding and watering of the nursery  goat house and pigs.  I'm doing laundry and getting all the school stuff ready for tomorrow. 

I need another cup of coffee.

but often times it feels like any help or perspective offered just gets shot down.

The idea that the only way a BS can be happy after infidelity with a wayward that isnt perfect R material is D doesn't work for me, no.

My happiness doesn't revolve around him, isn't based on what he does or doesn’t do. My happiness comes from me, my hobbies, kids, the life i have worked hard to have here.

The responses letting me know that i am not alone with this specific situation are comforting. Knowing that my wh isnt the only wayward to use sexual orientation as a deflection tactic really helped.

Full disclosure March 8th 2019 four AP's.

Do you believe that he is being honest with you about full disclosure? Or do you suspect that there were more OW?

All I can say is my SA ex was gaga over many gay women and would find excuses to hang around them, talk about them etc. He also was not above lying about someone's sexual orientation or marital status to make me think they weren't a threat when in fact he was having sex with them. And he wasn't above chasing gay women for sex. There was one work colleague in particular he was trying to take out on dates continually for years - who was gay but very femme and very hot, and I guess he figured he'd give it the old cheater's try.

After I caught him asking her out to drinks and meals a few times, I asked him to please stop and he continued behind my back. They love intrigue, secrets and a chase - it's just more cheater behavior.

[This message edited by skeetermooch at 6:12 PM, Sunday, January 16th]

Do you believe that he is being honest with you about full disclosure? Or do you suspect that there were more OW?

He let it slip that he "only slept with four woman" while drunk.

I have hard core proof of one. Emails that "suggest" a second.

Thats just in person, woman he worked with and while there he could have done the quickie in the back office with every woman there. Ill never know.

I am 100% sure he has not had a PA since he left there.

Since then it was online stuff only. At first he was looking for NSA sex but nothing ever came of it. Its just been liking pages on Facebook of woman who show their ass, stuff like that.

He did attempt to get friendly again with a former co worker from the old job through Messenger. She was not one of the four he admitted to sleeping with.

It was actually amusing for me to read their messages back snd forth for as much as he tried, she totally shut him down. Ha!