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Never. It would never happen because I would never agree to have an affair with her. Being cheated on is already a very humiliating and awful experience, but being a part of an affair and the consequential destruction of a human and a family is an unforgiving sin. My father always said, "Getting betrayed is bad, but betraying is evil."

TF, I "get" your morals wouldn’t allow YOU to cheat. The hypothetical is more for your WW’s mindset. She was willing to trash your relationship with you for HIM. In the hypothetical, would she trash her relationship with him for YOU. Based on what she is saying and doing, I fear the answer for her would be "no". She would be with her "twin flame" without all the messiness she is going through now…..

I also agree with Sammich. Start the D process during this separation. You can always stop the process if you choose. Maybe "shit getting real" will trigger a positive response with your WW? If not, it’s time and effort well invested.

You have worked really hard to get over your anger and violent outbursts etc. Just for that I would get out of a highly stressful, negative situation that will set you back considerably.

Her not coming back from a trip when you had an accident is honestly the answer you need. You help a stranger when they are injured, you were her husband for gods sake! It’s plain inhuman.

The big question here is that will she go back to AP if you divorce her? Most likely yes, he is single and there is nothing else stopping her.

You should definitely go ahead with a divorce and focus on yourself. If she still sticks around to being single and making efforts to be a better person, you could consider her. Don’t hastily try to reconcile with her after a temporary separation. She has to prove her worth to you, I don’t mean seducing you. I mean Staying away from AP when she is divorced and there is nothing restricting her and working on true remorse. From what you write, I am not so sure and you need to be sure that she truly wants you, not for the optics and not for the morality of the situation.

[This message edited by Abalone123 at 3:42 AM, Sunday, February 25th]

I don't understand that card she gave you. Was that something she was revealing she had done with posom before? Or was it something she decided to answer for you now to help you in some way?

If it's the latter, I just can't understand why she would say that to you now when trying to R?? Does she realize what she said, that she wishes she was with him and not you?

It makes no sense to me unless she is admitting she told posom that during the A, which is painful enough to be sure.

Thank you for your reply on what it was that was worse than what she had revealed so far. I agree with you that this is tough! I guess my views on this are:

- so far it appears that she wants to provide an explanation for everything she had done apart from the fact that she wanted to try him out

- the excitement was intense and she may have harboured these feelings for him since she first new him

- while I understand that the miscarriage made her depressed etc, the opportunity to do what she has probably thought about for some time presented itself and she took it - she then developed feelings or recognised feelings for him that she always had and hence the twin-flame over romanticising of the affair

- her gut reaction was to try and hold on to her marriage on discovery and hence her lying to try and keep you there, but the feelings that she developed were real and probably still there

- trust what you read and discover and accept no nonsensical explanations of why she has written what she wrote - the comment about if she had dated and was with him originally, that she would not have to betray you is ludicrous and also equally hurtful

I do not envy what you are going through. Have you told her that you do not accept her explanation, that it is ludicrous and hurtful, and that is why you are going ahead with the divorce? If so, what did she say? Is she still sticking to her story?

And also all this business of her needing to get counselling and therapy to understand why she did this sounds like bullcrap to me too but I maybe wrong here.

I think that you are handling this way better than I ever would so I am not sure that I can give you any real advice - just my thoughts on this.

My big 3 questions of my W after d-day were:

Do you love me?
Are you in love with me?
will you be monogamous from now on?

I like to think I would have walked if I hadn't gotten 3 solid 'yeses'. I had to work for a long time to find the courage to actually ask those questions, because they opened me up to rejection by the woman I loved, but I didn't see much point in staying with someone who doesn't want me,

I believe your W may have been fogged up when she gave you that terrible, terrifying answer, so I don't think all is lost, but if R is still possible, I urge you to bring it up and resolve the issues once and for all.

You've got decades of life ahead of you. Why spend it with someone who thinks you're a consolation prize?

I haven't found a lot of women I'd like to be with for a long time, so I think there's something to the idea of 'soulmates'. But the original version of the theory is that we have one soulmate, and I expect that there's a lot more than that, probably hundreds of thousands, given a world population of 8+ billion. IOW, I suspect you'll be able to find someone who wants you because you're you.

*****

The guidelines do not prohibit Anglo-Saxonisms. SI has a very few forbidden words, but I believe they get changed to mostly asterisks if you try to post them. In any case, you got your point across with using any of them. Sometimes, though....

but any divorce will take longer than 6-7 months to finalize and you can always stop the process.

Sammich: I guess I could do that. It does seem like a sound strategy. Thanks for that valuable piece. I need to consult my family before I make my move.

ImaChump: Sorry. I misinterpreted your question.

In the hypothetical, would she trash her relationship with him for YOU. Based on what she is saying and doing, I fear the answer for her would be "no".

Aww, man. That hurts even more.

Was that something she was revealing she had done with posom before? Or was it something she decided to answer for you now to help you in some way?

It was something she did with him before. She had that card on which she wrote this answer. I had asked her to disclose everything that he had given her, like gifts, clothes, etc. That is when I found out about this card.

She has to prove her worth to you,

I have been thinking about this for the past few days. I honestly don't know what she can do at this point to prove her worth.

she may have harbored these feelings for him since she first knew him

I have asked this multiple times, and she has denied having feelings for him before her A.

- so far it appears that she wants to provide an explanation for everything she had done apart from the fact that she wanted to try him out

She did say she did it to fill her void. So there was an explanation for her A. As to why she did it with him, she said there is no specific answer to that and her AP could have been anyone. I don't know how to interpret that. All interpretations are equally horrifying.

[This message edited by twinflamed at 8:32 PM, Sunday, February 25th]

It wouldn’t change much but it’s possible all this "I wish I’d met him first to save you from what I’ve ended up doing" was just her trying to spare your feelings. What she wrote in that card to him was never meant to be seen by you.

What’s more likely. She said she wished she met him first meaning exactly that, be that the truth or just an ego stroking exercise in a romantic card to her AP or she wrote in a silly card some deeply layered doubled meaning sentiment about saving you from hypothetical pain? Unless I’ve misunderstood this I don’t think you were ever a factor in that card. She’s putting spin on it and actually making it worse.

“I wish I met you first” is about as cliched a sentiment someone can express to an AP. I’d sooner believe that was her intent. The card kinda railroaded her answer.

[This message edited by Kindern at 8:55 PM, Sunday, February 25th]

She said she wished she met him first meaning exactly that,

They were college friends. So she knew him before we became a thing. She was talking about dating him before me. I still get your point. The more I think about her explanation, the more it sounds farcical and senseless.

The only reason to file now would be that she can not run up debt. It can also help is there is a false DC claim.

You wife is researching somewhere. Most of her answers ate common on recovery sites. The AP could have been anyone is just downplay ing the AP as being nothing specia

The opposite of love it is indifference.

What you need to find out is what happened when she was busted, did she talk to him. It is common that OM do not want a full relationship with the WW

Given your friends fiancee gave you a heads up, other people knew or suspected the affair. Is this why she is leaving.

What I would ask her to do is tell HR of the affair due to the used business trip. Have her prove she puts you before OM. It would destroy her relationship with OM.

By her statement, if she wished that she met him first, with all that has gone on now. Why not leave and go be with him?

Also, has she come clean with her family?

[This message edited by lparistotle at 12:15 PM, Monday, February 26th]

Thanks for the explanation on the card. What she wrote to him is obviously devestating to read and I have a few takes on it.

1) Her explanation of projecting her guilt in her answer on the card may be partially true. I can accept that her descriptions of feeling guilty may be real, after all, she's still with you and has not left for the posom, right? However, she needs to accept and acknowledge the fact that the core message she wrote was 'I want to be with you more than my husband'. There is no wiggling out of that fact.

2) So what she wrote is a fact but does that mean she legitimately, soberly felt that way 100%? This gets to the heart of many of the issues when an A is an EA. Is that love or is it limerance? Does she really deeply feel that way or is she saying it to keep her fantasy going? Either way, it's painful and I am not sure we can ever be certain. In her case, it may be a blend of the two but it appears there has to be a component of her really feeling that way. Why? Because she put him ahead of you repeatedly. Hospital, concert, birthday. Would just the fantasy compel her to do all those things? I find it hard to believe it was purely fantasy with the number of examples you have... even though I do believe that the affair fantasy and dopamine trip is a very real, very powerful dynamic. Sommaybe it was some of both because of what she did to you but also because she isn't with him right now.

3) Just to make it obvious, things like she wrote to him happen quite frequently in EAs; she is not unique in that regard. We have seen many, many examples at SI with these type of statements and plans to leave spouses etc etc. And many of those As turn out not to be real exit affairs when all gets exposed. That either supports the fantasy story of As or just the cold hard reality of all the implications of leaving your marriage. I think the other betrayals she did to you are a bit more unusual. Every wayward denies their BS in some fashion. Love, time, energy, sex. But her denials were definitely more aggregious because they were such blatant choices do this special thing for and with my husband or choose my AP instead.

4) One other thought I had on the card is that she could have dated him before you. But she didn't. When she was mentally healthier but in no relationship she never pursued posom. Does that actually support the idea that this whole thing had a strong element of fantasy for her? That the AP could have been anyone? Maybe it does.

5) Last, she could have thrown that card away. It had to be hard to show you that evidence but she did show you. Amongst her gigantic failings, that counts as a win for her remorse and character.

What's your reaction?

I think I am done. I can't take this crap anymore. Even after causing so much pain and hurt, she hasn't learned shit. I told her not to talk to him. She promised me she wouldn't talk to him. Yet, she couldn't resist the urge to talk to him. Today is the day she quits her job. She went to her office. She packed her things. She finished all her formalities. When it was time to leave, she was found talking to this POS in the parking lot by my friend's wife, C. They talked for like 20–30 minutes. C took some photos and shared them with me. They weren't doing anything vulgar, yet seeing them standing next to each other and talking twisted my mind a bit. I am fucking pissed now. I wanted to give her a chance to prove her worth, but now, enough is enough. Fuck her, fuck that POS, fuck this marriage. I am done. What hurts me most is that she was smoking in those pictures. She was a chain smoker. A year ago, she promised to give up smoking. Since then, she hasn't picked up a cigarette in front of me, my family, or my friends. It seems she broke this promise too and hasn't come clean about it yet. What the fuck is so special about this guy? She didn't mind destroying me, our marriage, and her own goddamn health for the piece of shit. Why is he worth all these destructions? Urghh... I hope that POS dies a painful death. And I hope God smacks some sense into my stupid airhead wife.

I’d send her the pictures and tell her she’ll be hearing from your lawyer.

Even if someday you decide to reconcile (doubt it) I’d still take this first step.

That is unacceptable.

Sorry to hear she did that. It's so common when there's been an EA but still really disappointing. If you just want to D no one pretty much anywhere on the planet would blame you one iota.

Even if you think R might somehow be possible, filing for D might be best at this point because it means you won't be wasting time if your state requires a long waiting period and it will be another dose of ice water for her that will show you her true state of mind.

What hurts me most is that she was smoking in those pictures. She was a chain smoker. A year ago, she promised to give up smoking. Since then, she hasn't picked up a cigarette in front of me, my family, or my friends. It seems she broke this promise too and hasn't come clean about it yet.

These women are all really cut from the same cloth….

My WW was also a chain smoker but "quit" because our young son had breathing issues being impacted by her smoking. I never saw her smoking again but her parents were chain smokers so she would often smell like smoke from being at their house.

Flash forward to 2005, I’m looking for something in her car and find a pack of cigarettes. She’s been smoking on the sly for a few years. Also, (unknown to me at the time), she’s in the middle of what would be her last affair. On D-Day she disclosed her and her next to last AP "connected in the smoking area at work" in 2003.

Smoking on the sly and lying about it is "wayward behavior" just like cheating, or talking to AP when they are supposed to be NC. It’s all lying, deceit and betrayal!

It sounds like you’re dealing with a narc who gets off on hurting you. You know how toxic that is for you. Get away from her and start healing.

She will tell you it was innocent.

You will never know if they were exchanging secret phone numbers, or email accounts,or making plans to meet. You will never know what she said.

She broke NC, after all this time,and after you gave her several chances.

You deserve better. Go find it.

It’s great she quit her job, but unfortunately she lost a lot of points for the meeting and the smoking. She just doesn’t get it. I’m sure however, at least in her mind, she thinks she will be able to talk her way out of it once again. More likely however she wanted to keep the door open to him.

You should now be prepared for a full onslaught of love bombing. She knows she is in a world of trouble, especially if she wants to have children. At 34 she is-at a precarious age. You are her lifeline to this. Though men have an emotional stake with having kids, and I don’t want to sound sexist, but she has a biological issue to contend with. If you leave her the timeline for her sucks. She will have a year at least in sorting things out with you. If that doesn’t work she is 35. It will probably take her a good year or two years to find someone. They then have to develop a relationship that would be conducive for marriage. Then a year or two to possibly conceive. This pushes her close to 40. The fact she miscarried will also play on her mind. You are her best hope. I would be vigilant if you do have sex with her that she doesn’t baby trap you, unless that is something you want.

The other alternative is for her to swing back to her twin flame. Probably not optimal, but it might be her only choice. Hence keeping the door open to him.

Just be prepared for the declarations of love.

I am a freaking mess right now. I got a call from my wife. I had decided not to talk to her until I calmed down a bit. But she has been repeatedly trying to get in touch with me. I was furious, so I didn't bother to pick up her calls. I didn't want to lash out at her. Then she messaged me that she had something very important to say. It got me curious, and then I called her back. She confessed on her own that she talked to him today. I immediately let out my rage and asked her why in the hell she did that. I raised my voice, and that got her scared. She tried to calm me down, but I refused her attempts. I just wanted her to explain her behavior. I did inform her that whatever her reasons might be, I am done with her and I want to quit. She immediately started crying and started apologizing.

She said this POS has been trying to talk to her since today, and she has been successfully avoiding him. But today he was more persistent, and in the heat of the moment, she decided to put an end to his pursuense by talking some sense into him. I asked her why she didn't tell me about his repeated attempts to talk to her. She replied that she was scared of what I would do to him, and she didn't want me to get into any trouble. She was also under the delusion that he would leave her after a few failed attempts. I wasn't happy with her answer. I pointed out to her that this is not the transparency she promised me. She apologized, saying she made a mistake and did not have any ill intentions or deception behind her actions. 

I asked her how long she talked to him. She was a bit hesitant to answer. I asked her again, but with an aggressive tone. She answered, "for close to half an hour." I got agitated and replied, "It doesn't take half an hour to tell him it's over and not to pursue you." She said she wanted to make things very clear. So she told him what had happened in her life since Dday and that she was trying to mend her relationship with me. She also apologized to him for involving him in this 'harmful deception'. He confessed that he still loved her and that his feelings were true. But she denied loving him. She 'made it clear that she was living in her fantasy, and she used him to make it real. She told him she didn't want to leave me and that she loved me. He tried hard to convince her that their relationship was real and told her that he would be waiting for her if she ever wanted to come back to him. The nerve with this guy! He not only destroyed my marriage, but now he is pushing my wife to run away with him. Arghhh... This POS needs to know his place. I feel like I should pay him a visit. I should crack his head so that he doesn't even look at another man's wife. (I am sorry I went a bit dark here, but that is how I feel right now. (That bitch does deserve some kind of punishment, though.)

And I don't know how to feel about my wife. Part of me believes she is telling the truth, and the other part doesn't trust her enough. I am still pissed at her, but at the same time, I feel like I overreacted. I am confused. Was I hasty with the conclusion of her meeting with him? I also feel bad for raging at her. I don't do that. I didn't rage at her even on Dday. If she is speaking the truth, then was it bad what she did today?

I asked her repeatedly if there was anything else she was hiding or hadn't told me yet. She replied that she wasn't hiding anything. She didn't come clean about her smoking. I guess there are things she is still hiding from me. I can't live with her if she keeps hiding things from me. I am not even sure whether she informed me everything about her conservation with him today or not.

I told her that I was still going forward with divorce. I asked her to find herself a lawyer because I would be looking for one for myself. She cried and begged to not go that route. She begged me to give her a chance. She apologized again for talking to him. I did feel bad after hearing her sob and beg. I told her it wasn't a bad thing. She will be free, and she can go back to him. I won't be an obstacle for them, and they can burn their twin flame as long as they want. That hit her hard, I guess. Her sobbing became a bit louder after that. I was being very harsh toward her. Whenever my mind fills with toxicity, my alarm goes off. I immediately distracted myself to decompress my mind. It was happening again, so I told her I would call her later before ending the call.

I feel bad for treating her like that. I should have raged at her on Dday1 or Dday2, but not today. I am not sure if what she did today was right or wrong. It sure doesn't make me feel good, but that doesn't mean it has to be wrong. God, I need some rest. I haven't slept properly in many weeks. I need to have a clear and healthy mind when I talk to her next time.

Sorry for the long post, and thank you for the replies and advice I received to my previous posts.

She tried to get a hold of you,repeatedly, and you ignored her. A reasonably intelligent person could figure out why. And,it's not like she doesn't know your friend is watching her. She's bot stupid.

She's in damage control.

Nothing says "never speak to me again," like spending an hour talking to them. Also..sharing with him what's been going on in the marriage since dday? Wth??

If you consider giving her another chance, get a polygraph first.

After all..you know she is still lying to you.