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We each have our own ways to solve our problems. Giving a change to your WW is a sign that you're willing to save whatever's left on your M. That is a sign of strong person.

All the best!

so I am basically giving this more time

That shouldn't stop you from starting divorce proceedings. Divorce is a long process and you can give up at any time. Seeing you waiting without doing anything may cause her to start dragging her foot again after a while.

it wasn’t so much the STD scare it was the fact she had admitted the affair with J2 to J1 (she also said she was having an EA with J1 at this time) - J1 basically said to her you know TAG will divorce you for this no question your life is over you have no choices here - my marriage is failing we’ve always had a connection, why don’t we get together and make it work.

It is not clear whether this is true or not, but it is a little more revealing than the old story.

So if there's no more, she was in EA with J1 long ago. It is necessary to know when it started and its details.

So actually it has nothing to do with STD fear, your wife wanted to go to J1 and she did. At that time, no one even thought of you, your WW didn't want to end her A without telling anyone and continue with her marriage, nor did J1 suggest it to her as your best friend. He simply suggested that the two of them start a new A, citing that his marriage was failing. But then their divorce wasn't on the agenda yet.

If your WW was then convinced of J1's reasoning and started an A with him, why does she now believe that your M can be saved? Moreover, she had only one A that could be considered shorter at the time, and now it is 2 affaires running at the same time, one with your best friend.

Another weird thing is that according to this deal, they were supposed to start a new and serious relationship, so your wife should have ended her A with J2, but it took a long time too.

On the other hand, when J1 went through the divorce process, she should have divorced you too. However, she had not done anything until now and it was not clear that she even had a complaint about your marriage. You said "we were happy".

While all this is based on J1 telling her that you will divorce her, it's interesting that nothing works out for this except J1's divorce.

She will probably say that she changed her mind and chose you, that she decided to stay married with you. But for some reason, that didn't occur to her in her first A. She was easily convinced that you would divorce her. And meanwhile, she continued her affaires.

It looks like these stories will change a little more.

Your wife is absolutely trickle truthing you, which makes everything so much more painful.

I would advise you move forward with divorce and concrete steps to get out of infidelity. You have no reason to believe she will stop hurting you. The divorce process can be long and can be stopped but she appears to be looking for how she can make this all go away. Divorce is not a manipulation tactic. You have given her literally all the time in the world and she just lies and makes it worse. It is time for you to take the reigns and see if she actually wants to change. If she sees you just waiting like you have before, she is going to keep dragging her feet and hurting you all over again. She is showing you this with the trickle truth.

You need to make it clear that any more lies will mean the divorce proceeds. She is definitely in self preservation mode. I am sure you know this.

Thanks again all.

For me at this point and reading these threads I think its becoming more obvious she wanted to be with J1 - this was planned for and after his D he waited for her to do the same except she didn't for whatever reason ever pull the trigger. J2 just seems a first step (or maybe others no idea) but she absolutely could see herself with J1 longer term.

He was the one who essentially kicked her to the curb when this came crashing down - not the other way around although she is saying her actions at that time made him think this was never going to happen (because she changed her mind) so to speed things up by confessing all and expecting me to D her giving her no where else to go except back to him......either that or he just decided he was tired of her and would ruin our lives by exposing.....great guy all around.

There is no other explanation really....and I am starting to think most of the grief I am seeing is actually her getting over J1......

TAG

Actually I was expecting pleading etc but instead got ‘ok, thats fair enough if thats what you need’

This tells you all that you really need to know. She is not willing to fight for you because she has checked out and moved on.

Scaredwoman - yep I get that but then she started with promises to change - I am thinking that's when the reality set in that her life would change into something very different to now.

I am not going to go for the same old, absolutely not and I've said that - its all in and I need to see actions a plenty or I'm out.

People keep saying on these threads 'truth now or its D' I know I have been TT'd this entire time, but how can I possibly threaten that when I don't know if it is the truth and I can't prove a negative.....?

TAG

You only need enough proof for you. This is not a court of law.

2 affairs - look up serial cheater.

The capability is there for her to do it again.

People keep saying on these threads 'truth now or its D' I know I have been TT'd this entire time, but how can I possibly threaten that when I don't know if it is the truth and I can't prove a negative.....?

I'm not a big fan of ultimatums, unless someone means it through and through. But, it's not a bad idea for you to work towards divorce if you are not getting the actions needed to recommit to your marriage. The more you emotionally detach, the clearer that you will see things....for the better or for the worse. Remember---it's NOT your job to prove what is the truth; it is HER job to prove this to you. That means HUGE efforts on her behalf. Unfortunately, you are not getting any of this.....at least not at this time.

I am willing to bet that although your wife is saying some things that are hopeful to reconcile, it just doesn't feel right in your gut. This part, in my opinion, is important. I know, looking back with the benefit of time in my own situation, that I was too concerned looking for positive steps, and giving them more credit than they deserved, that I tried to convince my uneasy gut feeling that it was okay. Truth was, that it wasn't. I can tell you today, that you will feel if it's right. It isn't just about the actions she does or does not perform; it is the effort and mindset that go along with it that give us some level of comfort.

Basically, what I'm trying to say, is not to force any feelings of comfort upon yourself. If it comes, let it come naturally. Right now, by what you have posted, no sincere efforts have been made. And as tough as it is, you are probably correct about her 'mourning' over her AP. That's a tough pill to swallow, and you don't have to tolerate it. You are free to walk any time that you wish, but if you are watching and waiting, don't be surprised by what you are witnessing. Everybody's level of tolerance is different; you do what you feel is right,.

People keep saying on these threads 'truth now or its D' I know I have been TT'd this entire time, but how can I possibly threaten that when I don't know if it is the truth and I can't prove a negative.....?

Actually the saying is actions not words, there is no such thing as spoken truth when it comes from a wayward (especially so close to Dday) only spoken lies and false promises. You have not been shown any remorseful or empathetic actions, you have only been given lip service. Most of us have all been in your shoes, the waywards with their believable tears and self pitying promise us everything we want in a marriage but if they could do that they would be doing that, not promising it.

Healing takes time and R longer, you just don’t skip the recovery/healing and jump into R. There is an article in the healing library called ‘before you reconcile, recover’ you need to work on healing yourself from this betrayal, your cheater needs to (on their own) actively seek all help to fix themselves so they can be a loyal safe partner to you, this is not in the form of words but rather actions like buying books on how to help you heal from their affair, seek out and go to IC who specialises in helping cheaters, by talking up front about the affair in almost clinical ways and asking you if you want to talk about it, this can not be prompted or asked by you, this must be their choice because those are all actions to show you she is truly remorseful. It means 180 until you see physical change, not just words you want to hear. If you prompt her into any of this you are giving her the tools to deceive you into a false R “if I do these things he will keep me and when he lets his guard down I can continue having fun.”

The other saying we have is sometimes you need to risk the marriage to save the marriage. Talking to a lawyer, separating, filing, all strong actions that show her you have had enough. You can stop the D process at anytime, you can end the separation at anytime but sometimes the cheater who thinks they can lie their way back into your good books needs to see the consequences, understand you have had enough and will no longer tolerate their lies and subpar attitude towards the M.

Right now you haven’t showed your cheater any true consequences of her actions and she hasn’t shown you any actions that shows she is a safe partner who will never cheat again. You can’t work with that and if you simply trust her words then all you have to do is read the multiple posts on here from other BS who forgot all cheaters are expert liars, offered R to an unsafe partner only to return months to years later with a new Dday.

Actions, not words, there is zero truth to your cheater’s words right now. Look at what she does and while you wait (& 180 her) work on your own recovery journey.

If you’re unsure what a remorseful wayward acts like there is a good post over on the waywards forum called admitting it vs getting it vs owning it vs living it and honestly it’s helpful in identifying positive remorseful actions to look for in a wayward as well as how a remorseful wayward thinks/speaks https://www.survivinginfidelity.com/topics/615240/admitting-it-vs--getting-it-vs--owning-it-vs--living-it/ most of the popular books on healing from infidelity cover what a remorseful wayward looks like too.

[This message edited by LostInHisFog at 11:16 AM, July 27th (Tuesday)]

Sure, the capability is there for her to do it again. It's there for ANYONE.

I need to see actions a plenty or I'm out.

Trees, I think you're on the right track. Either she'll get her shit together or she won't. You don't have to go nuclear like some suggest, IMO, unless she doesn't take quick action. I suggest that you try to be aloof and observant.

Thanks all again

jb3199 you're right in that it doesn't (up until now) feel right. Its the same unease I had that made me go looking originally - something is off / way off - I'm just thinking we've both had this terrible experience - not saying the WW is anyway a victim here hope you know what I mean though she has her own sht to deal with in terms of shame etc

Also found the term 'letting guard down' an interesting one - don't think I will ever do that again which means even if we do remain together I will always be wondering.....not a great place to be...does that ever go away?

TAG

Also found the term 'letting guard down' an interesting one - don't think I will ever do that again which means even if we do remain together I will always be wondering.....not a great place to be...does that ever go away?

It can, if everyone does the work. It did in my relationship. The key is for each spouse to individually get their act together and become an authentic, healthy person. Not just because they want to stay married, but because they can't stand being sick anymore. I trust my H to never stray again because I saw what his transgressions did to him.

Once you get to the place where you're both getting real, you have to let your guard down or you won't have a good marriage. But you're a long way from that. That's a topic for a later day.

Have you asked your WW if she will be going back to J1 if you file for D?

For me at this point and reading these threads I think its becoming more obvious she wanted to be with J1 - this was planned for and after his D he waited for her to do the same except she didn't for whatever reason ever pull the trigger. J2 just seems a first step (or maybe others no idea) but she absolutely could see herself with J1 longer term.

Yes, that seems more likely to the best of our knowledge. I guess that was the reason for the discussions PI saw.

But I guess their plan hasn't been foiled yet. This may be why your WW immediately agreed to the divorce. She knows that J1 is waiting for her.

But when she faced with the reality, she realized that the best plan was to stay married to you.

Yes, you may have been promoted to Plan A, but this is not something to be happy about, she can easily give up when challenged.

What is the reality that brings her to you? An unbroken family, a loyal husband devoted to his family an to his children etc.

On the other hand, a divorced AP/husband who cheated on his wife (even with herself), betrayed his best friend, unreliable etc.

Eating cake was good; just complaining about spouses and having sex. Is sharing life the same thing? Paying the bills, raising the kids, supporting the house etc. J1 failed in these.

And probably the fairy tale (not the A) is now over, now it is known what they did. Even if you are divorced and she marries him, they will not be happy. She screwed it up.

[This message edited by guvensiz at 6:09 PM, July 27th (Tuesday)]

I said to her get help for yourself, show me you want us to survive this - with your actions, I want those records and the poly and then we’ll see - so I am basically giving this more time……

What was your WSs response to this? The reason for this question is that the gift of a CHANCE at R is for the BS to give, and if the WS does not realise/recognise this, then the attempt at R is already weak.

R is not something that the WS can give, as it is not theirs to give in the first place. The BS should look at the attempt at R as a chance, not a guarantee, that the relationship can continue.

but how can I possibly threaten that when I don't know if it is the truth and I can't prove a negative.....?

Why do YOU need to prove anything? The onus of proof is on the WS. A truly remorseful WS would be moving mountains to prove things to the BS.

The WS needs to show the commitment and loyalty they gave to their APs, to the BS. In your case, she was loyal to J1, not you, even though she claims that she was a 'slave'. She had committed herself to J1.

So, now, she has to prove to you that her loyalty is to you and your family. She has to show that she would go to the ends of the Earth to make herself safe for you and your family, as she also betrayed you children.

So, if you are going to think about R, then your WS will need to prove herself worthy of that CHANCE at R.

Sure, the capability is there for her to do it again. It's there for ANYONE.

Especially if they’ve been down that road twice that he knows of.

Anyway - guessing this is where I get flamed - I said to her get help for yourself, show me you want us to survive this - with your actions, I want those records and the poly and then we’ll see - so I am basically giving this more time……

I think you handled that well, you have your line in the sand.

I’m with JB, continue to detach and work on the D. It is not for you to prove anything, that is the heavy lifting your WW should be doing. If she can do that to your satisfaction, the D can take a back seat to a possible R, IF that is what your decision. JMO though, you can pause the D but it should be there til deep into R.

He was the one who essentially kicked her to the curb when this came crashing down - not the other way around although she is saying her actions at that time made him think this was never going to happen (because she changed her mind) so to speed things up by confessing all and expecting me to D her giving her no where else to go except back to him.

To me, this is human nature, the problem I see is your WW is hurt/upset by the position J1 put her in. The problem I see is that will wear-off and WW will see it as THE great sacrifice the POS made to prove his lurv. Rainbows and uniform farts, stay strong brother.

I want to say I feel like much more has happened with J1, and J1 was likely her first. I get the feeling she's kept up a large lie regarding her values and saving herself for you.

That's just my gut.

I don't think most people are capable of change until their environment has changed. Therein lies the issue with R, at least in my mind.

beb252

Have you asked your WW if she will be going back to J1 if you file for D?

During DD1 she said something like 'don't push me towards him' - at that point I suspected an affair but couldn't prove it.

A week later at DD2 she said 'don't want to be with him' obviously DD2 came about following him kicking her to curb so she had no choice at that point anyway. Also just to say I think he's already moved onto someone else....

Oh and I can guarantee if she pursues this now her entire family will disown her, they hate him more than I do and that's saying something.

One other point here, I cannot stand the thought of this POS anywhere near my children now I know his full capability - that is definitely one of the reasons I don't want to kick her out and expose them to him.

DeWittle

The problem I see is that will wear-off and WW will see it as THE great sacrifice the POS made to prove his lurv. Rainbows and uniform farts, stay strong brother

Really? Surely by now she sees this guy for who he really is.....?

Ganondorf

I don't think most people are capable of change until their environment has changed. Therein lies the issue with R, at least in my mind

Not sure I understand this point, can you expand a bit please?

I think I have to talk to J1 - he is a total POS but if he hadn't exposed I fully expect I would have been none the wiser following DD1. WW certainly wasn't going to admit it.

TAG

[This message edited by TreesAreGreen at 5:04 AM, July 28th (Wednesday)]

It would be helpful to listen to his version of the story as well. Remember that it will also be full of lies. But it gives the opportunity to make comparisons and see the contradictions and find the truth, at least the reasonable one.

Don't tell your WW you'll talk to J1, or even try to talk to him spontaneously without prior notice. Don't let them sync their stories, unless they've done that by now. Don't interfere with him telling his story with quotes from your WW's story. Just listen and ask questions about his version of the story. Of course, you can ask about parts that don't match your WW's story, but don't state "my wife said so".