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TAG,

As I have said previously, you were not even her plan B or C or any letter in the alphabet. She was trying to get rid of you from her life. She was in love with POSOM J1 and still is right now. The reason why she's staying with you is because she has nowhere to go. If she leaves you, her family, friends and everyone from both sides will disown her. Thus, she has no support in life whatsoever. Also, your kids will definitely disown her too.

She might also be thinking that if you file for D under adultery, she might lose her professional life too, which, by the way, she never thought of before she did all those vile things with the Js.

She's acting all goody-goody now because you're her safe place, but she doesn't love you. Let's admit that fact for a moment. She doesn't love you. There's a big difference between loving you and staying with you from just staying with you because she has no choice.

Have to say things have been improving lately in terms of actions and not just words but I am sceptical most of the time as you can imagine...

Does this mean you have the timeline?

What actions are you seeing? I'm hoping they aren't helping around the house more... type of things. That's its stuff to help build your trust.

Her "story" doesn't make sense to me...she seems to still be minimizing things. The sad thing is that with J1 and J2 you may get more details later and that's going to mean a whole new Dday.

The fact that she doesn't want you to talk to J1 is sus. Maybe wait to talk with him until after you have the timeline.

I'm not saying he will tell you the truth but... he might shed some light on what she's hiding.

Double post.... sorry

[This message edited by Freeme at 2:05 PM, August 5th (Thursday)]

Thanks all once again for your collective wisdom. Just to say I'm still lurking and reading posts. Had sometime away but back now.
Things are not easy that's for sure. In terms of timelines how detailed would you expect? I have a timeline which I think is ok, has some details I knew nothing about before - nights away, date nights etc

Guess the key Q's were J1 and J2 order - that remains the same J2 then J1 - J1 texts started happening after J2 was involved but clearly WW now more confident and started to get much more friendly after J2. WW then says she confided in J1 ref J2 same story really - totally denies anything with J1 prior (well suppose only a poly would help)

Also medical records have been requested (can take up to 28 days) clock is ticking. Oh and me I'm off to get tested for STDs....

TAG

I’ve written a lot and so have others and it doesn’t appear our recommendations resonate with you. But we’re here to help so here goes:

Of course the time line should list
every date they met in person, where they met,
how long,
what was said,
even try to recreate the discussion.
Words of affection that were exchanged
Who touched who where
Who initiated
Who inserted what where
What she was thinking when she did this
What she was feeling when she did this
What she was thinking about you when she did this.

Also it ideally should include what they communicated when they were not together and again ideally would have copies of the threads from text or other forms of communication.

All that said TAG, as I’ve written multiple times, I’d be taking the stance that you believe she is in love with J1 more than you or anyone else and she has a lot of hard work to go over the next few years to prove to you otherwise.

I’d go as far to say, "you’ve been a piece of shit along with your affair partners, and what you have done has shown me that you care about me and consider my feelings less than any of them. So why don’t you finally treat me fairly and finally be truthful and be honest. I’m plan B for you at best and you’re only using me to soothe your own soul over what you’ve done. You dont care about me or the pain you have caused me. Your only protecting yourself and your image and your lifestyle. So why do t you finally do one thing honest in your life and tell me the truth. You love him and not me. At least I’d respect you if you could do that. I don’t think you have it in you.

I cannot lead this recovery. But I can certainly end it if I know in my entire heart that yours is not in it. "

Honestly TAG, what else is there?

Has she outlined a plan to rebuild, help you heal and win your love back? If it were me in her shows I’d have written it all out and presented it in a damn binder to keep track. Can you honestly say she’s all in?

Let us know what’s going on. We’re here to help.

I'd like to say Stevesn is giving you good advice.

I do think it's hard to recreate memories of thoughts and feelings. I also don't need 8 pages of word salad that she liked it but was confused but didn't want to hurt her family but it felt good at the time and she thought she wouldn't get caught and they hadn't had sex yet so it wasn't cheating just a date and...

Personally, I'm more of a facts guy. So everything else would be important in the timeline.

If it were me in her shows I’d have written it all out and presented it in a damn binder to keep track.

Just for reference, when my wife finally put in the work on a plan, etc. it was presented in a binder. Ha.

Well, I don’t have a timeline as detailed as suggested above and honestly I’m not sure I even want that however I was interested in what it should look like.

I have read all recommendations given and of course consider them all, I do not ignore anything but I have to weigh up what’s best for me and my D’s. My WW does seem to be taking actions she wasn’t before, she is getting into IC for herself and trying to prove to me she has told me all and being transparent…..too little too late maybe….I know people are saying to D or at least start the process and I am reading that and still considering my options.

I appreciate all points of view I have been given.

TAG

What progress has your wife made? Be very careful that you don't grant her a second chance too soon.

The timeline serves a dual purpose. First, writing out the timeline tends to transform (in her head) her affair from a romantic/harmless star crossed love into a selfish destructive immoral act of betrayal.

Second, it's critical for you to believe (really believe) that you know everything. It's not unusual for the BS to wake up one morning and relive (with all the pain) this nightmare. We've had BS on here as long as 25 years later. Of course years later they will say: "I forgot".

Finally, your wife had two affairs over years.

Among other things, in order to live with herself 24/7 in your marriage, she was (is): selfish, deceitful, entitled, and has no empathy for you. She has a long long road ahead before she can learn to control herself.

Have you reached out to J1? I would bet his story is somewhat different than WW's, and if there's more information out there you may get it from him.

TAG, at the end of the day, you have to do what's best FOR YOU. Not your WW. What's best for you will benefit your Ds because it sends a clear message - authenticity matters. Honesty matters. Respect matters. THEY will be more than just the marriages they may have in the future. Mistreatment between spouses has consequences. If you would encourage them to D their future WSes if they came to you with a story like yours, give yourself that permission.

If it's too little too late for you, it's too little too late. Only grant your WW a second chance because you WANT to and believe she has earned it. If not, you're free to wait and watch a little more to see if something changes or proceed with the D.

It sounds like you are handling things pretty well man.

My main advice is to not base all of your advice in one place - here, your friends, therapists, books etc are all really good and should be looked at as a whole. Most importantly, you need to atleast talk about your options with a lawyer. It may seem scary, it is, but it really needs to be done. You are making decisions and in order to make decisions you need to look at how each outcome can impact you. It's a two hour conversation, it can't hurt you and only help you. I cannot implore strongly enough to you look into this.

TAG,

Any update on your end?

Hello all, I'm still here looking at posts etc.

Few things to update on.

STD tests clear.

Medical records turned up and I reviewed them; tests etc match the dates I have been told. Some additional notes where my WW told the MD what had been going on. One early entry in 2017 and then another 18 months later. Nothing else relevant really so no surprises.

Had an interesting talk about her IC where I said when is it starting and got the 'didn't think I needed it anymore as we have been getting on well....' I did say its not for me it's for you, whoever you end up with needs to know they have a safe partner - you are not a safe partner at the moment.....I also told her the old marriage is dead - you killed it, if we ever moved forward it would have to be a new marriage and quite frankly knowing now what I know I wouldn't be the one to marry you....Q the tears and looks of total shock.

I was going to give this 6 months to make the final decision. Unfortunately my own work situation looks like its going to be changing very soon due to COVID downturns etc which could make things very difficult - more so than now!

I also decided to contact both J1 and J2 and sent messages as I want to talk....nothing back yet.

TAG

Soooo in essence your cheating wife was trying to rug sweep her past affairs and avoid counseling.

Wow - she’s a bit clueless about this isn’t she?!

If she read one book or article or listened to a podcast or watched a YouTube video she’d know how wrong and damaging that behavior is.

So sorry for you that you had to face that but I can tell you that you did the best thing possible by telling her about "a new marriage " if in fact you stay together.

It just irks me when cheaters do almost nothing to reconcile. It just shows the continued selfishness patterns continue.

The1stWife - Yes that is very true, I think she would like nothing better for this just to go away. It is also becoming clearer (to me at least) just how self centred she really is. I come away from some of our conversations thinking wow, it really is all about you isn't it?

TAG

After all she has done it feels like D is the only response. If the marriage wasn’t good enough to stay faithful before, why is it all of a sudden now after the pain of DDay, etc?

I always imagine that after D that if couples are going to find a way to stay together it’s more of a Friends With Benefits, little to no commitments type arrangement with the BS able to call it off at any time.

She doesn’t deserve to be called "wife" anymore. She hasn’t actually been that person for years. Why give her that status in your life. She’s in no way earned it.

Years down the road, decades, depending how things go and whom she becomes, maybe let her back in if you’ve not moved on to someone else (which I personally hope you do).

But it would have to depend on her becoming a more selfless person. Something she’s far from right now.

quite frankly knowing now what I know I wouldn't be the one to marry you

I think there is more truth to that statement incwhat you want than anywhere else.

Kids, finances, etc.

That was me several years ago. I " Did not D," which is not the same as R. I understand that too well.

Look, many people will tell you to D today and if that is what you want then, ok. No one is going to blame you.

I will say that me staying for the kids benefitted my W. It kept me invested enough for a period of time. I had some strict boundaries to keep me safe. She knew it was her very last chance if she wanted R. I detached from her and watched her actions. Honestly she failed as much as she succeeded. However after those failures she brushed herself off and tried something different. It took time, but it was hard to ignore that. It was hard to think she did not want the M.

So I bring it back to the quote from your post.

Are you willing to not D for some time to gauge how much it would take to change your opinion ? How much longer are you willing to wait ?

So I have to say her assuming that IC was not needed because "We were better..." just shows she thinks the choice to have an A is as much your problem as hers.

Until she can undestand she is the problem right now you are wasting your time.

I really hope she is seeing an IC soon and she will sign a release that allows the IC to share with you.

You've got time. Patience is wha will run out. Your W is not remorseful and keeps steering you back tp rug sweeping. Only a very direct and clear message of how badly she damaged the M is going to gey her off the fence.

Sorry but your WW isn't taking responsibility for her choices, has no remorse and feels like her actions are not as hurtful as an objective would easily see.

Is is worth watching more or has she already shown you who she is and doesn't plan on changing?

She needs to step up and soon. If she doesn't I think your only optoo is.to imememt the 180 and file for D. You tried, but you can't R alone.

Sometimes we have to endure tremedous pain to get to the place we want to be. People like your W don't have the emotional skills or courage to pay that debt to themselves. You have tough choices to make and I think an IC will help you best determine how to fill your remaining days with more happiness than misery.

Best of luck on whatever you decide.

ETA: I fixed my quotes

[This message edited by numb&dumb at 4:11 PM, Tuesday, August 31st]

You had mentioned she was doing things to show remorse. It concerns me that she doesn't think she needs IC. Hopefully she'll get on it and you can go forward with whatever works best for you.

So you have decided on D?

If you chose D, it will help posters orient their comments accordingly

I also decided to contact both J1 and J2 and sent messages as I want to talk....nothing back yet.

Why? What would you hope to accomplish? They have no reason to talk to you and even if they do, whatever they tell you will have no value. You already know you can’t trustthem.

Had an interesting talk about her IC where I said when is it starting and got the 'didn't think I needed it anymore as we have been getting on well....' I did say its not for me it's for you, whoever you end up with needs to know they have a safe partner - you are not a safe partner at the moment.....I also told her the old marriage is dead - you killed it, if we ever moved forward it would have to be a new marriage and quite frankly knowing now what I know I wouldn't be the one to marry you....Q the tears and looks of total shock.

I can think of no better example that illustrates as vividly that someone doesn't get it as this does. Getting along well was never the issue. Her permitting herself to betray you was and, by the sounds of it, she isn't really all that bothered by her decision.

She was shocked to hear you wouldn't marry a cheater? I guess she really can't imagine that you would not choose not to be with her. She must have a very high opinion of herself. Or a low opinion of you. She clearly sees herself as so much better than you in so far that she seems to think that you are lucky to have her, betrayal and all.

I don't see anything here to work with.

[This message edited by AnOminousMan at 7:37 PM, Tuesday, August 31st]