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barcher, my belief is that you are codependent and controlling, trying to make things as you think they should be--and that has given you depression and anxiety. Codependents commonly use 'worry' as a disguise for our need to control. As a detached observer I can see all the signs, including that you are unable and unwilling to let this relationship go. You would rather take all the blame, even though you didn't cheat. Even as a madhatter who has to juggle shared hurt and responsibility, I know how wrong and codependent taking too much responsibility is. It is simply not possible for you to "make her" act immorally, no matter how horrible your depression. She is a big girl. She knew how to handle it.

My belief is also that, because this is/was you and water seeks its own level, your W has matching insecurities and attachment issues causing her to need distance from you, hence the nights out and remorselessness. You are chasing her, trying to control her by understanding, forgiving, and compromising with her. But she is not much interested since she keeps distancing. You will never catch her and find peace. Peace will only come when you invest in yourself and stop caring about her needs. She will meet you then and work on herself, or maybe things will end, but you will find peace in understanding that nothing you did in the M could or would ever 'control' her behavior. She is the only one responsible for herself. When you ask about how to be a better mate, you are spinning your wheels. Another sign of massive codependency.

You will disagree with everything I said (although you will post that you don't disagree and thank me), and that's ok. We can only know what we know when we know it. But you cannot fix your W or affair proof your M, and she will eventually hurt you in some way that will smack you upside the head and you will get it: "I should just worry about me and stop thinking of her at all." Until codependents get to that point, they enable all those around them to keep doing whatever they want at our expense. It is quite hard for us to totally give up.

As a madhatter I have to say, your W has not even begun to own her crap. And there is no true healing without that step. Best wishes and hugs. I pray for you to value yourself and 180 your W so that she can really feel what losing a barcher will be like. That's when she will finally get it and start doing her work.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 6:20 PM, August 20th (Sunday)]

As to golf? I don't think many men get one-in-holes or birdies at the golf course unless their pet name is Tiger.

Have you seen the women that they have driving the refreshment carts? They are usually 18 to 22 years old and well... fetching?

You will disagree with everything I said (although you will post that you don't disagree and thank me), and that's ok.

I am so tempted to say "I agree. Thanks!"

But:

trying to make things as you think they should be--and that has given you depression and anxiety.

Nah, the abuse at the hands of my brother... and probably my mother are the more likely causes of my depression and anxiety.

your W has matching insecurities and attachment issues causing her to need distance from you, hence the nights out and remorselessness.

She might have matching insecurities and attachment issues, but she wants nights out because she enjoys spending time with her friends. There is no need to overcomplicate her social life.

I highly recommend re-reading Circe's and OwningItNow's posts. I think they're spot-on.

I'd also reiterate Circe's comment that you seem to use your depression diagnosis quite often. Remember it's just a diagnosis - the underlying behavior is what I think you need to examine in depth. For example, if you and your wife had an interaction, and you responded with a mean voice or menacing countenance, that could be construed as controlling. But that's perhaps a more extreme or obvious example.

Has anyone in your life ever suggested that you may have passive aggressive behaviors? Circe's "plausible deniability" comment is consistent with passive aggressive behavior. So are actions that, if written down or described, may seem fine at first, but a little digging suggests something more - tone of voice, mannerisms, a remark or term that hits at your spouse's weak spots "by accident." People with passive aggressive tendencies can act in manners that are quite controlling, but hard to pin down. They want very much to be viewed as "a nice person," but then act subtly in ways that suggest underlying anger.

I also raise the passive aggressive issue because I noticed that you often repeat that you "were depressed," rather than you "were angry," which is consistent with PA behavior. I may be off base; it's just my armchair observation.

Are you still using a nurse practitioner to assist you with counseling and/or medication, or have you considered using a psychologist? The latter are better equipped to go in depth into some of these issues, in my opinion.

Here's another second to re-reading what OwningItNow posted. I'd even say print it off and explore it with your IC (if you still do that). That was a great post!

Nah, the abuse at the hands of my brother... and probably my mother are the more likely causes of my depression and anxiety.

Or maybe the abuse at the hands of your brother and mother have caused you to develop a need to control the environment around you. Very common behaviour from abuse victims. And that need for control, but lack there of is feeding a depression and anxiety issues.

Look man, I realize your thing is to have a reply to everything anyone throws at you, but I can't help but wonder how much actually gets through. How often do you just sit on the replies folks leave and do a little introspection? That would much more valuable to yourself (and at the end of the day that's you here), then giving quick replies.

I also raise the passive aggressive issue because I noticed that you often repeat that you "were depressed," rather than you "were angry," which is consistent with PA behavior. I may be off base; it's just my armchair observation.

I'm not passive-aggressive. No one that knows me IRL would say that. I joke that I am merely "aggressive." I am straight-forward and I tell you what I think, often without concern for your feelings (I have tried to soften my "honesty" but I have not been entirely successful at that).

I'd also reiterate Circe's comment that you seem to use your depression diagnosis quite often. Remember it's just a diagnosis - the underlying behavior is what I think you need to examine in depth.

I say "diagnosis" because I did not suddenly develop depression last year -- it has been there all along. I understand that it is common for people to fall into a depressive cycle after discovering an affair, but my depression is a preexisting condition.

It's ironic that you all comment about how I bring up my depression often, but yet think that I should worry about taking care of myself. Talking about my depression IS taking care of me. It has nothing to do with my wife. It is me, whether she is in my life or not.

The underlying behavior is behavior that I regret after the fact. I always have. I'll give you an example. In 1998/1999, I started dating a woman. She had a horse farm, so she always had chores... so if we wanted to sleep together (meaning: sleep, not sex), it had to be at her house. After awhile, this drove me bonkers. Absolutely, totally, bonkers. One night, I completely blew up about it, having a partial nervous breakdown -- not really anger, just crazy. The next morning, I was fine. That was the depression, I now know.

The depression is discussed often because it is a bigger deal than my marriage and/or my wife's infidelity. I can heal (and largely have -- now it's merely a question of whether to stay married or get divorced) from my wife's infidelity, whether R or D. My depression will stick with me.

I am doing generally well, but I still have bad days. A couple of weeks ago, I left my wallet somewhere while traveling and I had to be without it for a week. I had two days of solid depression because of that.

Are you still using a nurse practitioner to assist you with counseling and/or medication, or have you considered using a psychologist? The latter are better equipped to go in depth into some of these issues, in my opinion.

I check in with the nurse practitioner every three months or so. I am not seeing a therapist or a psychologist. You are right that psychologists/therapists are better equipped to go into depth. I did that a year ago with my therapist and she reached the conclusion that I was generally fine.

And, to be honest, I am fine as far as knowing how to behave, establishing boundaries, acting ethically/morally, etc.

Or maybe the abuse at the hands of your brother and mother have caused you to develop a need to control the environment around you.

I disagree with this. I don't try to control the environment around me.

Look man, I realize your thing is to have a reply to everything anyone throws at you, but I can't help but wonder how much actually gets through. How often do you just sit on the replies folks leave and do a little introspection?

I didn't know that my thing was to give quick replies. Interesting.

Anyway, yes, I think quite deeply about what people say here, both the comments with which I agree and those with which I disagree. No one who has met me in real life would accuse me of being a shallow thinker. Edited to add: I even go back and re-read my threads and comments every so often to see how my mindset has changed over time.

[This message edited by barcher144 at 3:42 PM, August 23rd (Wednesday)]

I highly recommend re-reading Circe's and OwningItNow's posts. I think they're spot-on.

Here's another second to re-reading what OwningItNow posted. I'd even say print it off and explore it with your IC (if you still do that). That was a great post!

Personally, I like Circe's comments quite a bit... and it's been illuminating. The tone of my voice has often been angry and/or annoyed and this has been perceived as controlling from time-to-time by my wife.

The problem, I believe now, is that my depression/anger were misinterpreted as "controlling", although that was not my intent (I was just angry for no good reason). Since getting the depression under control (more or less), there have been no complaints of "control." (it's also worth noting that an effect/side-effect of the anti-depressants is that I now get sad/tired when something bothers me rather than angry). Anyway, this is not my wife's fault -- it's my fault for being a jackass.

I disagree with a lot of what OwningItNow has written (but genuinely appreciate the response). I don't take any responsibility for my wife's affair and I don't believe that I am co-dependent. I discussed that accusation, at length, with my therapist and neither of us understood how that term could apply to me. My wife, for sure, disagrees that I am co-dependent... she has done everything in her power to get me to stay.

I am also not trying to "affair proof" my marriage. I am trying to determine if I should stay in my marriage or not. If my wife doesn't "own her crap," then I will need to get out. I think that she is much closer to owning her crap that OwningItNow believes. I believe that there is a major FOO problem there, one that Mrs. Barcher and I have discussed at length.

And yes, I am trying to become a better mate. But, I don't see anything wrong with that, which apparently is "another sign of massive codependency." I have been accused by two wives as being "controlling." I think that's an issue worth exploring based on that, don't you? I honestly posted this question with the thought that it would be great to know what it means to be controlling (so that I can avoid doing it) with a future partner in mind -- that's hardly the thought process of a co-dependent.

barcher - your d-day was about a year ago.

keeping that in mind and that shes had a pa and ea ... id say its smarter she NOT go out at night. a year since d-day isnt that long. at a year out shes still earning the trust back she blew with an affair.

my wife stopped going out at night after d-day. she was using these trips to conduct her a, includinh a lta with her bartender.

she doesnt seem to have an interest in going out now. luckily. id be ok with an erratic in blue moon thing. but regularly? hell no. i didn mind before but that was before she slept with a ton of guys, or at least before i knew she had. if it became regular again ... then fine she can go out all she wants. just not as my wife.

When my WH begins to act angry or stressed it affects me greatly. This is why he is in IC mostly now, to handle his responses to stress.

Today has been a really busy (and as a result, stressful) day for WH. He was beginning to lose it. Not freak out, but you could see the clenching, the monotone, the pacing and gripping of things and rubbing of the temples. I told him to go take a nap and he's sleeping it off right now.

While he didn't yell or freak out at anybody, it's still stressful. I don't know if it'd have the same effect if it had been me. Guys are louder, bigger and more intimidating. Nevertheless, I don't look at him at this point and think 'he's controlling me'. He would likely get more upset if I chose to leave the girls with him while I go out in his current mindset but that to me feels logical. We need to be concerned for each other's mental health. If not, you're just selfish.

My WH tries to control. He manipulates with guilting and nit picking. Too bad I've caught onto this I just don't give a fuck anymore. Probably why he's had so many A's

barcher,

I just want to say that you are one of my very favorite posters. You seem to be a genuinely good person who is kind to everyone here, and your W is damn lucky to have you.

And what I said about your codependency and need to control--well, that is me too, which is why I can recognize it in someone else. That is exactly me, a control freak and uber codependent, trying to keep all the balls in the air. It's not uncommon. Near as I can tell, it comes from finding success as a responsible child who was looking for peace inside of uncertainty and/or chaos. Being good and jumping through hoops made people happy, and it felt good! I don't know if you can relate, maybe not. But being controlling does not necessarily come from an abusive or hurtful place. We can still be good kind people who just desperately want people to be happy. Sadly, it doesn't work that way. It's on them all the way.

I honestly wish you the best with your W. I hope you get back all the love you deserve.