SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

As I said in my previous post, I am focusing on healing myself (not just from the A but from FOO issues) and learning to love me for me. The work is hard and it has dredged up so many memories from childhood that I see in a new light. Had you asked me a year ago how my childhood was, I would have easily said that it was good! We weren't wealthy by any means, but we had what we needed and plenty for what we wanted! Sure, my parents favored my brother, but I knew I was loved.

It didn't take long into this process for me to realize that while I was not physically neglected, I was emotionally neglected. Had it not been for my maternal grandmother, I wouldn't have learned what unconditional love looked like.

Anyhow, here is one of the instances where I want to ask if I'm overreacting or reading too much into it. After the first session that dealt with just me delving into FOO, the week that followed was grueling. All the memories bombarded me and left me exhausted. I barely slept that whole week. WH asked why I was so tired and I told him that the week was difficult because of all the emotions I was suddenly feeling about my childhood and parents.

He made no comment about it, instead he changed the subject to something else. This bothered me and I felt that he missed an opportunity to show some empathy. I didn't say anything but couldn't stop thinking about it. I brought it up again and basically, he said that he doesn't see those moments, that his ADHD brain bounces to a different topic. TBH though, to me it seems more likely that he isn't interested at all in what I was saying, and wanted to talk about something else. So, how exactly is he supposed to work on his empathy when he can't even pick up on situations that require it? And am I supposed to always point out, "Hey, some empathy right now would be nice, this is one of those situations you should focus on me and my feelings" Ugh! To me that just means I'm the one doing all the work again.

He doesn't do anything to improve his empathy, NOTHING! He doesn't even go to IC or MC anymore. Oh, he'll go if I ask him to, but he puts no effort into taking the initiative on that.

Anyway, durring that discussion I talked about how I view myself, physically, and how I still have those voices in my head of my mother, father, brother, etc. from my childhood until 18. That is is what I'm working to overcome because I want to be able to love myself, accept myself, feel beautiful in my body, no matter what it looks like.

So, second "am I overreacting" situation. Durring our M, over 30 years now, there have been several times where he has commented on my weight, what I eat, and exercise routine, etc. So, yes, I have his voice in my head as well, but I'm not ready to work on that yet, as I'm still working on FOO. I told him this, but he asked what I meant when I said that I have a version of how I think he sees me. He assumed I meant as a whole person, inside and out, but really, I just meant physically. I told him I didn't think he felt I was beautiful (certainly not by societies standard), and that the women he viewed as beautiful looked nothing like me. While having this discussion he did tell me that he thought I was a beautiful person because of the type of person I am (beautiful on the inside so to speak), and why don't I get a tummytuck, that might help me with my self-esteem This of course completely misses the point of me wanting to find myself beautiful the way I am now!

Sidenote: he also told me that he didn't look like any of the men (celebreties etc.) I thought were attractive. Not true though, at least not in the same way as many of the men I think are attractive are not conventionally attractive, and we've had this conversation before, he can't fathom why I would find Tom Petty attractive!

So I'd love to hear from you all if you think I'm overthinking those instances, or am I justified in feeling that he just is NOT seeing me at all outside of what I can do for him.

He did say that he has done and said some terrible things and is so grateful that I didn't leave him because I was well within my rights to do so. He apologized but blamed it mostly on him being young and stupid. Well, many of those terrible things were done and said when he was in his 30's and 40's. He was 47 when the A happened and a few years after that he was still being an ass. However, him saying that upset me, because he's presenting it like a good thing that I stayed, because it benefitted him. The way I finally saw it was...pathetic...Nothing to be proud of! If my daughter came to me and told me that their H had done/said these things to her I'd pack her bags! I am embarassed that I let this man walk all over me, treat me like shit, made myself smaller for him just so he could feel big! What in that is there to be proud of? He also said that he knew that aplogy was probably too little too late and he's right!.

And here's my scary revelation. Once I heal myself. Once I truly LOVE myself. How can I stay with a man who has so little respect for me? How can I stay with a man who emotionally abused me for decades? How can I stay with a man who hurt me over and over and over again and just shouted me down every time I tried to stand up for myself? OK, yeah, sure, he's trying to change and things are different now, but the damage has been done! Even if he is the sweetest, kindest, most affectionate, worshipful man for the rest of my life...HOW? Except that you all already know that he isn't any of those things and still hides behind his memory loss, and ADHD brain, to get out of doing the work necessary!

And where does that leave me? I have NO IDEA! I don't think I have the bandwidth to really think about this right now. I just need to continue to focus on me and see where that takes me. I am trying to find happiness where I am, I don't want to waste the rest of my life. Honestly, most of my life is lived w/out thought of him anyway.

Ugh!! Fuck life is hard!!!!!!!!!!!

I've posted in some of you other threads, maybe, like the MC's I often speak of trying to take both perspectives into account, have given your H too much credit.

He seems exhausting.

He seems incapable of consistent effort.

He seems incapable of real and lasting change.

He seems to repeatedly show you he is a little too lazy and selfish.

If he seems this way to you, you might not have anything to work with. You can always change your mind about R at any time. Hell, even without an A, some marriages just don't work forever.

This0is0Fine

Thank you for the response. Yes, I think I keep hoping for real and significant change. But I have to be realistic and assume he might not be able to be the man I need him to be.

Am I ready to pull the plug on this M? No, mostly because I don't think I'm in the right headspace for it. I feel too vulnerable right now and certainly don't have ducks in a row to make D possible for me right now. I don't think things will change that much more, and I still feel that while he says he loves me, he just wants me around for all that I do for him. He does nothing but go to work and come home. He plays video games or watches shows. On his days off we go out to eat or do some shopping, but that's pretty much it. The rest of the things that need to happen to run a household are done by me. I take care of it all. Cooking, cleaning, paying the bills, dealing with what the kids need, grocery shopping, errands, gift buying/wrapping/sending, party planning...well, you get the gist, this list could go on and on.

He makes money, that's his contribution to the family. And I admit that it is a BIG contribution, without that we wouldn't have the life we have, but money is not enough. He still will not make an effort on his relationship with the children, and I know if something happens to me, it will all fall apart. At least I can trust that my children will be there for eachother, even if he can't participate. It's honestly sad. But I can't be that bridge anymore, I refuse.

I really wish I could find a trauma therapist as mine very often asks me to extend grace and compromise. But I refuse. I shouldn't have to. He should be walking on broken glass to keep me, but he won't.

Again, I try very hard to find hapiness where I am. I have my kids and am looking to find some new friends here. I'm also getting back into writing (finally editing a book I wrote years ago!). I hope to continue this journey, even if it's without him.

He makes money, that's his contribution to the family.

In another thread, he complained he felt like a walking wallet. I'm trying to understand if he has done anything to improve his connection with you and his kids. I'm not slighting this contribution, but it seems like what is lacking is not the material condition of your household.

This0is0Fine

Yes, he did say that, but when I pushed back on it and told him he could change that view, he said he didn't care to. That it didn't really bother him. So, I think that it does bother him, but not enough to do anything about it. It irritates him but I told him that he made that bed since that is the only contribution he believes is important, and left everything else about raising kids on me, including discipline (though he did try, but usually he would just yell and lecture).

Financially we are OK, not wealthy but enough for a nice home and a couple of vehicles, plus the ability to eat out and have nice things. He is working on his relationship with me but zero effort on his relationship with the kids. I don't think he has the bandwidth to do it. My son is in therapy as well, he has some anger issues that have to do with his father and I know for a fact that he will probably never be able to work through them with him. So, for now, I hope IC works to help him deal with it, and of course, I am there for him as well.

WH has done some work on himself when it comes to his selfishness and DARVO. His knee jerk reaction still seems to be defensive, but he can come back and have a real discussion a bit later. He does more validation of my feelings, but it still feels like I have to bring these things up and he doesn't ever initiate. He will buy me things and I think it's how he shows his affection, but I'm not materialistic in the least, and it makes me uncomfortable to get things for myself that are expensive. I know that is a me issue though, it isn't like he's breaking the bank, to me expensive is $100, to him expensive is over $500.

Could your H be on the spectrum. He actually sounds like can’t feel empathy. If that is the case you might be married to someone with Asperger issues and personality traits that are hardwired into his brain.

ADHD is soooo over used to excuse bad behavoir. I have it, my husband does not. Guess who cheated. The one thing your ws said that is true is our brains are all over the place but we can actually pay attention. So do not let him use that piece of crap. He misbehaved because he wanted to. Do not buy any other excuse.

If you are miserable you can do many things. You can stay "married" but have very little to do with him. You can travel, visit family and friends and no longer pay attention to him. Or you can separate. You control only you.

Cooley2here

We've never thought about Asperger, but I'm pretty sure he's on the spectrum somewhere. I do understand that it is an obstacle, but not impossible. I've made concessions to our household and how I arrange things keeping that in mind, but yeah, all I'm asking for is to be heard and some initiative, I don't think it's too much to ask.

Right now I am trying to focus on my own happiness and interests. That doesn't mean I ignore him, we have lots of time together doing things, mostly on his days off. He works nights so we see each other a couple of hours after I get up in the morning.

Once I heal myself. Once I truly LOVE myself. How can I stay with a man who has so little respect for me?

I think that asking this question is a sign of your growth and healing.

Just about every BS who shows up here starts with "how can I save my marriage" and "why wasn't I good enough?" Eventually, if one is doing their own work they get to where you are headed "is s/he good enough for me?"

Early focus after Dday is on the WS. How could s/he? How can I fix them? Can they change? I often (probably too much like a broken record) try to help betrayeds put the focus on themselves. And your post and the path you are on is why. Once one starts to know their worth they no longer see their WS as a prize. It helps lift the pain. It helps the betrayed start charting a course or building a relationship that serves them as much as it serves their partner. It helps if one has to start making difficult decisions.

Much like most parents wouldn't hesitate to do whatever it takes to help their child. Once we love ourselves with that same effortless commitment, we don't hesitate to protect and honor ourselves. Strong position to be in.

Keep going on your journey toward real self love. It can only serve you in every possible way. Your WS may or may not grow with you. That remains to be seen. If he is able to, I think that is how you "get past" the betrayal. You both grow and change to have a mutually beneficial relationship. If he isn't able to, well, ok, that sucks but you will likely find that untenable for the woman you love (YOU!) and eventually you will feel peace only at the thought of moving on.

And here's my scary revelation. Once I heal myself. Once I truly LOVE myself. How can I stay with a man who has so little respect for me? How can I stay with a man who emotionally abused me for decades? How can I stay with a man who hurt me over and over and over again and just shouted me down every time I tried to stand up for myself?

I the 'how' comes down to not needing external validation. Maybe you'll stay; may be you won't. Right now, you can't decide because you're dealing with FOO and M issues, and the way you're dealing with FOO issues is brand new.

Patience, sis (if I may call you that). Patience.

*****

With ADD, I don't know how to respond to a lot of things. I just lost 2 friends. I don't know what to say to their families. I don't know what I'd want to hear in their sitches. I can make condolence calls, but I can't say much.

That's probably why my W often has to ask me to say specific sentences when she wants support. I can learn from that, but ... it takes time to go through the learning curve. I'm ADD. You might be staying with your H because you think he can learn wht you want him to learn, but you're not quite ready to teach.

That's pure speculation, though. I have no idea what is going on in your H's mind.

*****

My W never understood how much I was attracted to her. She knew I like Sophia Loren. She compared herself to SL! I never suspected that - I learned about it during R. I thought I was showing her I liked how she looked. She was shocked 25 years ago when we met XDIL2b - tall, short-waisted, mini-skirt, not boyish in the least.

When we split from son and XDIL2b, W exclaimed, 'Those breasts!' I certainly noticed, but I said, truthfully, that if I had to choose between W at 25 and XDIL2b at 25 on the basis of looks, I'd pick W. She didn't believe me without a lot of conversation.

Also during R, I learned that I valued my W for things that she hated about herself. She still doesn't fully believe those aspects of herself were major attractions for me. We never talked about this because it never occurred to either of us that our thoughts were so far apart.

IOW, we were on very different wavelengths. You and your H may be on very different wavelengths, too. once you build up some more self-love, I think you'll have conversations with your H about what keeps you together, and you'll probably be surprised at the answers.

*****

You're on your healing path. Stay away from trying to control the outcome.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 3:10 PM, Saturday, March 30th]

TheEnd

Thank you for the support.

I think that asking this question is a sign of your growth and healing.

It feels like climbing Mt. Everest TBH. Like, will I ever reach the top? I hope so, but I've also learned that it is going to be a painful climb with possibly many plateaus! You're right that at the beginning the focus was on WH and not me. It took me a long time to focus on my own healing, it was a HUGE Aha moment for me. And focusing on dealing with my own FOO and self-esteem issues has been eye opening in a stressful but important way.

sisoon

Patience, sis (if I may call you that). Patience.

Thank you for this. I needed to hear it. I know intellectually that the healing process (for anything) is time consuming, but every new thing I learn or realize seems intense and overwhelming. The future I thought I was going to have is no longer there and each piece that is removed is terrifying because it leaves a large gaping hole that may never be filled, and if it is, what is it going to be filled with? I hope something better, but as we all know, there are no gaurantees.

It is absolutely true that my and my WH's brains do not work the same. Empathy is second nature to me, I am never at a loss for words, and I know when silence is preferable. So it is alien to me to not be able to see when someone is in pain and not try to comfort them. Even a stranger! But, as I've said, I am focusing on FOO right now but I will get to WH eventually. As you said, I don't think I'm in the headspace to "teach" him how to show empathy. I have suggested reading Gottman, but of course, no initiative on his part there either.

You're probably right about "different wavelengths", but with all the instances of him making comments about my weight etc. (including that I should dye my hair because it makes me look younger--implying that I look older with grays), it's difficult to give him the benefit of the doubt. At this point, even if he told me everyday that I am beautiful, I wouldn't believe him. (Something else I need to work on of course)

You're on your healing path. Stay away from trying to control the outcome.

The only thing I want to control right now is myself. I shut down any negative thoughts that pop up and tell myself that I am beautiful and worth the journey to happiness. That I deserve more than I have been getting and it's ok to stand up for myself. I am worthy and deserving of love, validation, attention, time, etc. It's hard, but, I decided that I will listen to my grandmother's voice over all others. I still don't believe myself when I say those things, but, I believe her!

fournlau, I love this:

The only thing I want to control right now is myself. I shut down any negative thoughts that pop up and tell myself that I am beautiful and worth the journey to happiness. That I deserve more than I have been getting and it's ok to stand up for myself. I am worthy and deserving of love, validation, attention, time, etc. It's hard, but, I decided that I will listen to my grandmother's voice over all others. I still don't believe myself when I say those things, but, I believe her!

Fornalu

I wanted to let you know I’m right there with you. I thought my childhood was okayish at least for me but I realized I buried a lot of things. I watched my brother get physically abused for years but since it didn’t happen to me, I didn’t think it was "my trauma". I watched my mom not be able to leave my dad because of money and here I am independent as ever and it took a toll on my marriage.

I also have to focus on myself and my childhood issues, it seems like the issues with my WH should come first but apparently this trauma is erupting in me from mh childhood so it comes first.

Having to face 2 new realities now is traumatizing, not only what we thought our M was but how we thought we grew up.

I think it has brought my H and I closest for him to see why I do a lot of things I do. We talk now in lengths about my childhood and my independence makes a little more sense to him, the reason I don’t believe in spanking makes more sense to him. I am hoping maybe finding new reasons for you also helps bring you two closer. My H also was not good at empathy, he was so beyond selfish but he’s getting there but it isn’t linear, he has to literally see me on my knees some days to snap back and feel it with me. Not everyone wears their heart on their sleeves like us.

I just wanted to say I hear you and I see you. I feel it all with you.

[This message edited by Groot1988 at 4:29 PM, Saturday, March 30th]

Couldn't figure out how to write after quoting. But as someone who is going through similar FOO-M issues, I agree with so much you are saying about your work. How it is that when we ask how it could be that we chose someone so invalidating, we see that our FOO, who we knew loved us in whatever way they could, weren't exactly validating us in the first place. We had learned to love others through a windscreen of emotionally neglectful, hot-cold parenting or even verbal put downs meant to "improve" us. So we "got tough."

I'm thinking this is why we accepted a half loaf as adequate for our needs....until we opened it up and saw it had air holes all through the middle of it!

Groot1988

I think it has brought my H and I closest for him to see why I do a lot of things I do. We talk now in lengths about my childhood and my independence makes a little more sense to him, the reason I don’t believe in spanking makes more sense to him. I am hoping maybe finding new reasons for you also helps bring you two closer. My H also was not good at empathy, he was so beyond selfish but he’s getting there but it isn’t linear, he has to literally see me on my knees some days to snap back and feel it with me. Not everyone wears their heart on their sleeves like us.

The funny thing is, until this latest A and the destruction it manifested, I don't think my WH was ABLE to see me and my pain. It took him hitting rock bottom for him to realize what an ass he had been throughout our M. It took the entire thing crumbling down around him to finally realize that I was worth having, had always been, that he had taken me for granted. I know he fears me leaving, but unfortunately, I still feel that that is more for selfish reasons than that he actually cares for me. But that's another issue for another day, lol. We've had these discussions before, but he finally understood that when he said those things (about my weight), it amplified all those negative voices already in my head from my childhood. He hadn't been able to understand then, but he understands now. One of my boundaries now is that unless I ask him a question or for help, he is NOT to mention my weight, how/what I eat, exercise, etc. Of course this doesn't apply if I am eating something that will spike my glucose, as I feel that is about my disease (diabetes) and not my weight. we've only had 2 oopsie moments. He apologized and has refrained from making comments. I will also add that I would not blame him if he brought it up if I was becoming morbidly obese or something. But, except for the diabetes, which I have under control, I am healthy.

I recently took a personality test and the results were honestly not a surprise INFP-T which sets me as a Mediator. I lead with my heart and not my head. I listen to my intuition more than anything and am highly empathetic. Of course, that can be a detriment if I go too deep into that empathy. My WH has always said that I am too naive, and my empathy can get me in trouble. That's true, but the way I feel is that when I help someone, it's because I believe it is the right thing to do. If that person is taking advantage of me, well, that's on them, not me. And, I only give what I am willing and able to lose. Yes, I am that person who will give money to the beggar on the side of the road. If they buy food with it, great, if they buy booze or drugs, well, my measly $20 wasn't going to change their lives anyway, and it is theirs to do with as they wish.

Having to face 2 new realities now is traumatizing, not only what we thought our M was but how we thought we grew up.

OMG YES!! I didn not think that in my 50's I would be dealing with childhood trauma! I didn't even think I HAD childhood trauma! But, as you've said, it's all connected and healing from it, will help in my A healing as well. It will help with my overall wellbeing, and that's worth it, even at this age. An added plus is that I can guide my children through any healing they need as well. I am open to any and all criticism from them about my parenting. Overall, even though it's difficult and painful, I believe it is well worth the effort.

Superesse

...as someone who is going through similar FOO-M issues, I agree with so much you are saying about your work. How it is that when we ask how it could be that we chose someone so invalidating, we see that our FOO, who we knew loved us in whatever way they could, weren't exactly validating us in the first place. We had learned to love others through a windscreen of emotionally neglectful, hot-cold parenting or even verbal put downs meant to "improve" us. So we "got tough."

I'm thinking this is why we accepted a half loaf as adequate for our needs....until we opened it up and saw it had air holes all through the middle of it!

It's hard to see your parents in that light. I know they did the best they could, after all, as my IC said, they also brought their own FOO issues into their parenting. It propigates if it isn't dealt with. I hope to end that with me. Although I understand that nobody is perfect and I made plenty of parenting mistakes. The least I can do is validate my kid's feelings and apologize sincerely.

And yes, I believe that is why I accepted such poor treatment of me. I hate that I modeled this kind of relationship for my children! Yet another realization that smacked me in the face. Damn, life can really suck!

.

Once I heal myself. Once I truly LOVE myself. How can I stay with a man who has so little respect for me?

This feels like a big and important and profound breakthrough for you fornlau. I read this earlier today and it made me so happy to see. I had to write myself a reminder to come back and highlight it when I had a minute.

This is exactly why self-love is so important. People who know their worth and really love themself are far less willing to accept poor behaviour from a partner because they don’t just don’t need them. And why would you want that if you didn’t feel like you needed it?

Ah ... I think I might have been too pollyana-ish in my post above. I've never had a problem with my W's looks, except when I found out she had been hiding a severe weight loss - during the A, of course. At 5' 3", she's weighed between 130+ and 91.5 lbs (her weight at the end of the A, very unhealthy for her). She finally started having lots of gray in her 70s - not to mention wrinkles, sags, etc. - and I still like how she looks. I mean ... I'm still 21 in my head, I don't look as good I did in 1965, either.

His comments about how you look indicate a real problem in him, and if he solves it, he may be a good partner. You may come to ignore the comments when you understand how lovable you are. But if they're deal killers, so be it. It's essential, IMO, to know one's partner likes to look at them.