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BS Questions for WS - Part 14

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nervousnelly posted 7/27/2020 09:51 AM

My WH has danced around his actions and has not been forthcoming. I know it was at minimum an EA with at least two women. We have rug swept and I have become the ultimate "dancer".

My question to WS's...if your spouse did the "pick me dance" and basically competed for your attention time, etc. how did you feel about them? Did you lose respect? Did it intensify your feelings for the AP?

hikingout posted 7/27/2020 13:26 PM

Are the only WSs here the ones that stayed or fence rode until they ended their affair? I haven't seen any WS stories here from those who left their BS for the OP and later regretted it.

Most of the WS on this site are here because in order to reconcile with their spouse, they have to figure themselves out. I think a WS who leaves their spouse just presses the eject button and often doesn't go to self evaluate until later, if at all.

However, Yes. I fence rode a bit. When the A was over at first my husband didn't yet know about the A. I was really not sure what I wanted to do. I went to IC immediately and started working through things. After two months, I decided I needed to confess if I even had a shot at my marriage. I wanted to see if we could make it work, but I was not sure.

Looking back, the fence riding was nothing more than having believed my own justifications about my affair to be true. Things like my husband expected a step-ford wife. When I realized I was the one who put those expectations on myself, I started to see more clearly that all the issues were really assumed without much self-evaluation. I really started to open my eyes to the re-writing.

Unless they truly commit to wanting to reconcile it may not be something they bother to examine for a long time. Sometimes the new relationship blows up fast enough they can start to see how wrong they were about it.

Had I left for the AP I think I would have quickly realized I left for someone much less than my husband. I don't know if this answers your question or not, but we really have mostly WS here who wish to reconcile. Not all, but most.

hikingout posted 7/27/2020 13:34 PM

A question for WS:
In the early days following Dday, but whilst WS was still firmly within the denial stages, he would effectively rewrite the history of our marriage and during his less sensitive moments tell me things like Ďhe hadnít loved me for a long timeí.
Whilst I understand this is a common theme amongst the waywards, I assume to make them feel good (?) better about their cheating.

I wondered why they felt the need to rewrite quite so much of the marriage history, for example: My WH whom I have been with for 25 years chose to inform me that the only reason he took me on our first trip away was to see if he was going to break up with me or not. The trip was within the early stages of our relationship, many years prior to this affair.

This in addition to being told he hadnít loved me for a long time, has made finding special memories free from the affair difficult.

Why do waywards look back at the entirety of their relationships to find excuses for their short comings? How do they explain these lies to themselves when they are so obviously inaccurate, in my case, I continually asked WH why he stayed with me for so long if he had been so out of love and unhappy for so much of our relationship?

I think most of us WS do not know what makes us happy. Often we are people who didn't really evaluate ourselves in relationship to being happy. When I had my affair, I was at the lowest point in my life, but could not recognize it, or the how or why until much later.

I am typically a happy person, I am a glass is refillable rather than half empty or half full kind of person. I hit a bad point where I numbed myself so much that I was an empty shell of a person. I didn't deal with what I was going through, I ignored it. And, the AP came along and started showing me interest. It felt good. So, I wanted more of it.

Often when we are doing something we know is wrong, to go through with it we have to have a narrative as to why it's okay. Unfortunately the spouse becomes a scapegoat. It wasn't my husbands responsibility to make me happy, in fact, he would have been surprised to learn I wasn't happy. So, it's also not his responsibility to mind read.

When I had my affair, I told myself things like I didn't like being married any more, that my husband expected too much of me, that we were not emotionally connected. I also went back to the beginning of our relationship and said certain things were not ideal in order to prove that he and I were not right from the start.

The reality of it is, I have always enjoyed being married. I expected too much of myself and just blamed my husband for it. And, those things in the beginning that weren't ideal, were just obstacles that we overcame to be together. All couples have that. Heck, if I decided to be with the AP would I have thought breaking up two marriages was ideal?

Affairs are often done to avoid reality. Escapism. I don't think we purposefully rewrite, I think it happens a little at a time as each boundary is crossed. It's the narrative we tell ourselves in order to do something we know is wrong.

Mickie500 posted 7/27/2020 13:58 PM

Question-

What language did you use to end the affair? Did you write a script? Did you believe it what you were saying? Did you leave a window? Did you let them down easy do you looked like the good guy?

Iím upset that I wasnít there to hear it.

forgettableDad posted 7/27/2020 19:18 PM

Question-

What language did you use to end the affair? Did you write a script? Did you believe it what you were saying? Did you leave a window? Did you let them down easy do you looked like the good guy?

Iím upset that I wasnít there to hear it.

There is no way to be a "good guy". Affairs are a symptom of a sickness. I'm not in the school of thought that posits ending an affair should be scripted or overly verbose. Once a decision is made I don't think the WS should go visit or converse with the AP - and in most cases, I would say, an affair's end doesn't come as a surprise to either party.

I sent a simple message of goodbye, don't contact me. And proceeded to blocking my AP on every channel I could think of.

As far as leaving a window. Well, if someone leaves a window then the affair hasn't ended, has it?

Did I believe what I was saying... Again, affairs are not a rational experience. I didn't know what I believed. I knew that I was somehow fucked in the head and that I had to find my space. I actually asked my wife for space as well. And went on walkabout around different cities in my country (before staring a new job since I quit the old one for obvious reasons). It took me a month before I knew that I was on a road to heal. I didn't know whether my wife would wait for me but I had to let go of a lot of old fears.

[This message edited by forgettableDad at 7:19 PM, July 27th (Monday)]

Ascott58 posted 7/28/2020 21:57 PM

So I've went back and read text from my WH during his affair. He was so nice to me. Why? He would text me good morning beautiful. Tell me how much he loved me. Send me dirty text messages. We had great sex during the affair. Why? We were in a weird place because I had been dealing with some seasonal depression but right when the affair started I saw hope that we would be okay but it was all a lie. Why would he give me false hope like that? And how am I to believe he is not doing that now and talking to someone?
He says he woukd never do this to me or himself again. How fo I believe him when he said all that?
Any WS do this during there affair.

The affair lasted 4 months. It was an EA and PA.

MIgander posted 7/28/2020 23:12 PM

Nervousnelly:

My question to WS's...if your spouse did the "pick me dance" and basically competed for your attention time, etc. how did you feel about them? Did you lose respect? Did it intensify your feelings for the AP?

Oddly enough, when my husband was doing the "pick me" routine, I was floored. Here was the man I didn't believe cared about me, suddenly caring about me and for me in ways I had been asking for for years. I didn't trust it- I thought it was a manipulation tactic. I didn't know what was reality- could the husband I thought was so indifferent/cold/demeaning/negative to me over the years have love in his heart for me? Could he actually care? Or was it an act to manipulate me? I had exaggerated his faults so much that I had an enormous difficulty in seeing any of the positives.

When the pick me dance wound down after 2 months of me trickle truthing, I didn't know whether it was because I was hurting him again and again (I was) or whether he could not maintain the "act" (he couldn't with me hurting him repeatedly).

FWIW, I don't think a WS in an active A can respect their spouse any less for the "pick me" routine- they're already in such a state of devalue/discard that they likely are at rock bottom in that regard anyhow.

Also, at that point in the affair, I was beginning to see some of the nastier things about my AP that had me begin questioning how long I wanted to be in the A anyhow? Looking back, I really was so starved for affection, attention and approval that I was willing to eat out of a dumpster to get a few scraps.

Not sure if that's helpful in your case, sounds like your situation is very different from mine. How is it that you've accepted the scraps of info he's been willing to give you? My BH dug and dug and dug until he was satisfied he had the truth of the affair. What are you trying to protect with your rugsweeping?

Lucky77 posted 7/31/2020 07:08 AM

Hi Ascott58,

So I've went back and read text from my WH during his affair. He was so nice to me. Why? He would text me good morning beautiful. Tell me how much he loved me. Send me dirty text messages. We had great sex during the affair. Why?

I was outwardly kind to my W during my A. I was so full of myself. I had myself believing I was king of the world because I had two women that loved me and would lay down with me. What's not to love about that? Of course two is better than one (kidding).

WS become professional liars during out A's. We are oddly confident that we have our primary chick (W) and our side piece (AP).

While your H was smiling at you during his A he quietly knew he was mistreating you and that the whole A would eventually crash down like a house of cards. He just didn't know when or how.

nervousnelly posted 7/31/2020 09:51 AM

MIgander...

Thank you for your post. I read it a few days ago and took some time to think about your statement and question:

How is it that you've accepted the scraps of info he's been willing to give you?

When I read this, I immediately thought I have not accepted the scraps. I am still angry and still want answers. Then I really sat back and realize I HAVE accepted the scraps. I have stopped seeking the answers, reason, truth. In my mind I have no real proof. I have call and text logs and two pics pulled from email (he emailed the pics to himself from his phone). I do not know the contents of the texts or what was said during calls. I was gaslighted for a long time that I began to believe: I was wrong about things, this wasn't an affair, we have been together so long he wouldn't do this to me, they were just friends...etc. It became my narrative and the rugsweeping began.


What are you trying to protect with your rugsweeping?

Great question and one that I thought really hard about. I think ultimately am trying to protect myself. I was a mess for so long. This affected every aspect of my life and because of the gaslighting, I became complacent and gradually accepted how things were. I believed that this would all go away. All the feelings of inadequacy, anger, hurt...would POOF, disappear. I would "get over it" if we didn't talk about it.

Nope. It has just made me weak and pathetic. I did not and have not stood up for myself. I did not and have not respected myself. How can my spouse respect me if he feels I have accepted his shit. This has made me a weaker person.

I am in IC again. I had stopped going (part of the rugsweeping). I know the "right" thing to do and will even encourage others, but cannot take my own advice in my own relationship. I just know that I have never really faced anything head on in my life (perpetual doormat). Hopefully, this go around in IC I can focus on becoming a stronger person.

Thumos posted 7/31/2020 12:30 PM

I do believe vows mean different things to different people.

This is genuinely scary to me and I fear it is how my WW sees it.

Are there are other WS who view the vows they took as conditional or contextual?

For the record, I'm finding it very hard to see how anyone could think that about the traditional Christian vows we took. I'm not a relativist or a post-modernist, so I take words at their plain meaning.

I'm asking not to niggle on this or to poke anyone. This has been one of the biggest sticking points for me in how she reacted the first year after D-Day. It was a really shocking set of statements that came from her about our vows.

Thumos posted 7/31/2020 12:38 PM

It's difficult coming to terms and reaching acceptance as personal digs undermining you as a man were shared between them. I think you'd have difficulty, but may be able to work through things with more confessions from her and closing the gap between being an "ideal" or an "unquestioned" remorseful wife, fully worthy of reconciliation. This requires walking the plank and back with a scarf around her eyes and sharks hovering below.

Jorge thanks for the detailed response and sorry I'm just now circling back.

Just to clarify in the one conversation I captured between them, there was no degradation of me as a man. They commiserated with each other about "why are we married to such assholes?" This was said bc I was at this point relentlessly digging and they were beginning to get concerned. Her AP in particular was concerned.

The digs at me as a man came later after D-Day directly from my WW when she said I was "sexually immature" because 1. She's my one and only and 2. I could not come to grips with her characterization of the "meaningless sex" they'd had.

She also said "That's what adults do!" when I continually expressed shock about the sex in our home.

If you think about these two phrases, they are in fact kinda telling. "immature" and "adults" -- she was projecting her own immaturity onto me.

Mickie500 posted 7/31/2020 14:24 PM

If you decided to go underground after DDay what kind of adjustments did you do? Was this further bonding you to your AP?
Did your AP gladly do this? Did you AP really want to be with you solely or they didnít mind going underground because they didnít want you to leave your spouse?

leavingorbit posted 7/31/2020 16:18 PM

@ Thumos

This is genuinely scary to me and I fear it is how my WW sees it.

Are there are other WS who view the vows they took as conditional or contextual?

For the record, I'm finding it very hard to see how anyone could think that about the traditional Christian vows we took. I'm not a relativist or a post-modernist, so I take words at their plain meaning.

I'm asking not to niggle on this or to poke anyone. This has been one of the biggest sticking points for me in how she reacted the first year after D-Day. It was a really shocking set of statements that came from her about our vows.

It is scary. I'm sorry. You had a teammate, and suddenly they pulled off their face, and tripped you when you had the ball, and ignored your hand when you reached out for help up, x2398497235.

The following stuff is JMO...

I don't think any one jumps for joy at the thought of pain and trauma in the world. If they do, it's because they themselves are hurting and finding a way to cope. Morality and social capital are things we hold up because it's good and fulfilling to care about our fellow man. Callousness and violence stem from a lack of care, a cyclical experience. Some people absorb better the stimuli that breaks that cycle, to varying degrees. Maybe it's standing up to your abusive dad because you (not you, but the general you) are now 6' tall. Maybe it's starting AA because you drank a bottle of rubbing alcohol. Maybe it's having an affair and blowing up your own family. My therapist explained it to me like this: everyone's watershed moment (their rock bottom) is different. None of these things are excuses, just explanations. You take your vows as they are meant. There is nothing wrong with your belief system, your values: they are yours. Your WW's job is to figure out why she didn't uphold those vows and values when she agreed to, and to fix it, and if she won't do that, then she can go morally relate elsewhere.

I'm sorry, I truly am. I think your wife has some big bad inside of her from her past and also still from her affair. It's a bomb, and until she defuses it, how can she be safe?

I'll admit that my own rock bottom was in degrees, and those degrees keep coming, to be honest. Realizations, understanding. I share all of those with my husband. I don't know if I'll ever be done.

Thumos posted 7/31/2020 16:25 PM

Maybe it's standing up to your abusive dad because you (not you, but the general you) are now 6' tall.

Actually this is me weirdly enough at around 15 years old. Right on the nose.

Thanks for the kind words

[This message edited by Thumos at 4:25 PM, July 31st (Friday)]

Want2BHappyAgain posted 8/2/2020 05:14 AM

I just read a post that got me wondering...so I decided to ask you lovely people who help us Betrayeds on this thread .

There are varied reasons for why people cheat...but there is a common answer to several questions that a Betrayed brings up. The dreaded "I can't remember".

So...what DO you remember? If you truly CAN'T remember...why is that? If you can...but you choose to say you can't...what is the reason you don't admit to the memory? Does that phrase lessen in time because you truly can't remember...or did it work before so it is your "go to" answer?

I will stop there ! Learning how the mind works is very fascinating to me...so as much insight as you can bring will help. Thanks !!!

Darkness Falls posted 8/2/2020 08:42 AM

W2BH,

The start of the A was almost 11 years ago and it lasted for almost six months. If I were asked questions about it today, I wouldnít remember:

a.) the number of times we got together (I estimate 60 or so but no way to know for sure),

b.) where we went on each date we had (because not every meeting was just getting together to F),

c.) the content of each of thousands of texts or phone calls.

The reasons for not remembering are the large number of meetings/texts/phone calls and the length of time that has passed.

[This message edited by Darkness Falls at 8:42 AM, August 2nd (Sunday)]

MrsWalloped posted 8/2/2020 09:20 AM

I remember a lot, but not everything. I donít remember every conversation exactly or very specific details like which cafe we went to on which specific date. Like if my BH asked me about a particular week and wanted to know how many times we saw each other that week and of those times how many times did we have sex, I donít know if I can recall specifically which day it was that I did (although I usually volunteered on Mondays and Thursdays and if I did a third time then it was Tuesday, so that helps). Mostly I can remember details, but not always. Part of that is time and part of that is because some details werenít important to me at the time. Not the sex part. That is important. But the days do get jumbled a bit. I mean like what we did (not sex) or where went on specific days. I think Iím making a mess of this. I hope it makes sense.

I do think that some WSís use the I canít remember excuse as a way to avoid telling the truth. Personally, I canít envision someone forgetting big things like whether they actually had oral sex or not. To me, if I were a BS that would be hard to swallow. But smaller details I can see. But if the WS ďgot awayĒ with the I canít remember line, and itís not really true, then theyíre not really being honest and authentic anyway. So why wouldnít they use it again?

Want2BHappyAgain posted 8/3/2020 08:02 AM

Darkness Falls...thank you for your response . WOW...11 years already. I have heard people talk about the exchange of lots of texts...so I can imagine that part being hard. After 11 years...is there one thing that sticks out that you do remember? Just a YES or NO would be enough of you feel comfortable saying it .

MrsWalloped...thank you my precious niece for your response too ! My H explained things to me much like you just did. He remembered the sex...for instance...that she gave him oral sex 3 times...but he didn't remember the exact days. He knew they were given when she was on her period...but he didn't know her cycle. So we went through the calendars for the months THEY were together...and deduced the dates. Once I found out about the google timeline though...I could see when he was going to her house. We were off by a few dates...but it made it much easier to tell that he was telling the truth...which built up trust .

Darkness Falls posted 8/3/2020 13:03 PM

W2BH,

Oh, I remember much. The date of the start of the A. Obviously, D-day too. Places we went (but not which specific date), things we did. Conversations we had, both general and specific (but again not which date on the calendar they were had). Many small details about things, sexual and otherwise. Basically I remember everything except the three things I listed that I donít.

[This message edited by Darkness Falls at 1:03 PM, August 3rd (Monday)]

Mickie500 posted 8/3/2020 15:07 PM

What is google timeline and how is it used?

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