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Getting away with it

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SaddestDad posted 5/7/2019 22:01 PM

I personally feel that a main factor is due to technology. It's become so much easier for people to become cheaters without feeling like they're putting themselves at risk for exposure.

Anonymous apps... texting... social media... forums... etc.

They're tools that give cheaters more ability to cheat in so many more ways, but even more so, they open new realms that people who never thought they cheat... well, they sometimes only realize that they WERE cheating once they get caught my their betrayed spouses.

In my opinion, all of those excuses are simply that. Excuses.

But there's no true reason other than that they selfishly did not give two shits about the one that should've been caring about. They pulled the wool over their own eyes, just to scratch an itch that they chose not to divulge existed.

dancin-gal posted 5/7/2019 22:18 PM

I agree infidelity is rampant.. I am in my 3rd D-Day .. no way am I happy .. no MC or IC for first discovery .. 2nd discovery was a devastating.. but I suspected .. told WS to leave .. again promised to change .. 5 years of MC /IC .. he broke it off .. OW called and said she missed him .. so start of an EA for 5 or 6 years ., the talked by phone then it became a PA .. they saw each other once or twice a year but the phone conversations were every day most times .. total of 18 yr A .. angry doesnít even describe my feeling .. I chose to give him another chance .. I am 73, another year to see if there are positive actions ..what more can I lose? he is not a terrible person .we have fun together ..
I feel that so many people jump into divorce before working on a relationship..divorce is the easy way out.. marriage reconciliation is darn hard work .. it doesnít always work out .. but I can say I worked to save my marriage .. this time I am here and WS needs to do the work .. I am working on Me with the IC .. first time small kids .. so worked to give kids best lives .. then 2nd .. that was the heart breaking .. WS appeared to do the work .. life was good .. I was happy, I trusted again .. life continues as his relationship with OW grew again our relationship started to nosedive .. I admit to stepping back .. if I hadnít would he have chosen to break the EA? Donít have the answer .. it was a stressful time for many reasons in my WSLife .. I pulled away . If I didnít would the results be different who know ..
there is no excuse for infidelity.. but we are responsible for our action in our marriage.. it is a double edge sword.. he crossed the line ..
I am hoping that our next years can be better who know maybe we will get it right this time .. .

Thissucks5678 posted 5/7/2019 22:22 PM

I believe my WH didnít think he would get caught. But he also didnít dream there would be no consequences. He knew how I felt about cheating. He knew I wouldnít get over it. He has to live with the fact that the one person in this entire world (FOO issues) who truly loved him unconditionally and had him on the worldís highest pedestal - will never look at him the same. Will never trust him the same, will never feel the same about him and that he destroyed that person. He crushed her. The mother of his kids. Itís not easy for him. Every single time there is cheating in a movie, a tv show, a certain name is said, songs come on the radio, certain holidays, every birthday I have, etc, - all of those of are constant reminders to both of us of what he did. He has to live with all of that. He may have gotten away with it until he got caught - but as long as we are together, he isnít getting away with anything. Itís not easy - when the WS is remorseful.

MalibuBayBreeze posted 5/7/2019 23:42 PM

Stolenyears

For what it's worth, I no longer believe in soulmates either. I did very strongly believe in the whole idea of this one incredible person I was meant to be with. I was devoted to my WH. I never noticed if men were checking me out because they weren't in my line of vision. Just as when I walked down the aisle on our wedding day, my focus was always on him. I'm human and out of 7 billion people I'm pretty sure there are many other souls gracing this planet that I would be attracted to and fall in love with.

THIS is what makes me not buy the whole notion that the AP meant nothing. If I know there are other men out there I could be with then I also know I am not the only woman he could be with. The difference between us is I was more than fine with not ever opening the door for someone to walk into my life. He swung it wide open. The loss of that romantic notion of A SOULMATE is sad but it's reality.

Does it still hurt sometimes? Of course. But not as much as living with somebody who would willingly destroy me for the whims of his dick.

This is a quote I will be using for strength, because it is the brutal truth. Something to think about to stop the triggers. Stop the mind movies. The endless thinking, worrying and fear. Bringing it down to this raw truth is IMO liberating.

Technology is a breeding ground for infidelity. The world has opened up to be one big candy store. An EA can be struck up with someone on the other side of the world. Gone are the days of being limited to people you meet in surrounding areas. That perimeter has been blown to bits.

Dancin-gal
An 18 year affair? Good Lord! I am so sorry. You must have exceptional strength and grace.

I feel that so many people jump into divorce before working on a relationship..divorce is the easy way out.. marriage reconciliation is darn hard work

I always knew marriage would be work. Very hard work at times and also believed people gave up too easily. My opinion has changed. I have put in the work. Into building our relationship, setting up a home, becoming a family, trying to communicate, desperately trying to understand why my marriage was changing so drastically, and more. I wasn't happy and anytime I attempted to communicate about us and air our grievances to work through them I was shut down. He did it after DDay. Still doing it by refusing to attend one of my therapy sessions with me, which has sent me to the next plateau of this whole trip. It was dropping the ball big time and the attempted conversion about it was another slap of reality.

I've fought for us and worked for us a long time. I'm spent. Let him, for once do all of that. It's what should be.

Thissucks5678
It sounds like you're somehow making peace with it all. Though I don't know how that sounds but I think you know what I mean.

No trust will never be there for me again. It's not in me to ever forgive this either. At least your WH is sensitive to things. My WH drops the word "cheating" without the slightest realization that perhaps that might bother me. It could be in reference to cheating other than infidelity. Cheating on a test. Whatever. But learning to think before he speaks would be nice.

Rideitout posted 5/8/2019 05:02 AM

I was expecting this to be about something else, but I'll throw my 2c in.

A lot do get away with it. In fact, in my personal life, it's much more likely "get away with it" than get caught. Yes, most of the men I know have now, at least once, been caught. But they cheated a lot before they were found out. Like W caught them on AP#4 or #6. And still doesn't know about 1-3. It's one of the big reasons I don't believe infidelity stats at all, I'm sure these guys and their wives would answer "nope, no A's here" and that's a total myth. I've seen research that says some % of A's go undiscovered, and the number, although high (IIRC, it was 60%) still seemed very low to me. Now, of course, this is all going to depend on the type of A, a long drawn out thing is going to be increase the likely hood of being caught multiple times over. A short/ONS thing, much less likely.

After looking at the middle school lines that the final AP used that she bought, I asked her how it felt to be played like a fiddle? I would not want to live with THAT humiliation knowing I killed my marriage for some lies that a teenage boy could have written. Knowing that there is nothing special about Schmoopie, and the lines he used were right out of the Playa handbook on how to seduce married women, it has to be a sad realization that hits when the fog clears. "You mean, I am not special like he told me?" "We are not soul mates?"

I wonder if our wives had the same AP.. His lines were, literally, word for word taken from some "Red Pill" stuff I'd read years ago. I recognized it immediately when I saw it because it felt so "jilted" to me when I read it the first time.. Like, who says this crap, and, more importantly, who buys it?! Well, now I know the answer to both questions. :(

Brennan87 posted 5/8/2019 06:48 AM

What a great dialogue!

IMO we canít broad stroke this with a brush and assume all WS got away with it.

Sure some may feel this way, those that donít do the work. Those who are narcissistic etc. I believe they all think they wouldnít get caught. After all what kind of mentality goes into it, thinking ďIím gonna cheat and know I will get caughtĒ and still do it. If this is the case why keep it secret.

For those who ďdidnít get away with it. The life sentence they gave themselves has too be Unbareable. They ran from themselves to escape, yet made that worse. Not only that but as pointed out ďthe one they now cherish, is the one who no longer adores them, special is goneĒ .

The very thing they were running from in the affair has deveatates entire lives and for what ďyour hot, letís fuckĒí. Nothing. Itís those that find empathy and integrity (albeit too late) that have too now live with the path of destruction by their own hand. I donít think they got away with anything. They canít look back at the thought of sending a dick/vag pic with fondness. As itís that action that led to their spouse screaming, crying, walking out etc. they have insurmountable shame now.

Hg65 posted 5/8/2019 08:23 AM

My husband got away with it because, at the time, I was too bewildered to form a plan. I really had no idea what to do, frozen in my tracks.

Had I known about this site, things wouldíve gone a much different way. I wouldíve had more confidence.

It was much later that I stumbled across this site. I feel that, by then, I had already agreed to try to give him a second chance.

On the other hand, he hasnít quite gotten away with it 100%. He lost my complete trust and unwavering adoration. He lost my respect which is probably the biggest part.

His role on our marriage has an *asterisk* by it. Like athletes who break records while on steroids. Itís a big giant ďnot quite.Ē

I love him but I have grown indifferent to our marriage. I actually think if there were to be a DDay #2, I would be fine with it. I would be able to walk away without too much drama.

If I could go back in time, I wouldíve left on DDay.

sisoon posted 5/8/2019 09:01 AM

I think it's important to keep in mind that As are about the WSes, not the BSes. I've never felt worse than I did in the months after d-day, but I was not a target of my W's A. From what WSes are reported to say, most of us aren't targets - the As are for the WSes, not against us. IMO, we're collateral damage.

IMO it's also important to keep in mind that a need for external validation is part of many (and perhaps most or all) As, and external validation simply does not fill up the holes in our souls.

And it looks to me like external sanctions do little to stop people who seek external validation. Deterrence doesn't seem to work....

Dancin'-gal, One of the pluses of D that I saw, when I was making my choice, was that there are lots of single women my age. If I dumped my W, I thought I could find someone pretty easily. (Of course, the demographics are in my favor....)

MalibuBayBreeze posted 5/8/2019 09:32 AM

It was much later that I stumbled across this site. I feel that, by then, I had already agreed to try to give him a second chance.

On the other hand, he hasnít quite gotten away with it 100%. He lost my complete trust and unwavering adoration. He lost my respect which is probably the biggest part.

His role on our marriage has an *asterisk* by it. Like athletes who break records while on steroids. Itís a big giant ďnot quite.Ē


Totally agree with this HG65! I love the asterisk analogy and it's as if one should be added to the marriage certificate.
*promised to love, honor and be faithful but it was all bullshit*
I think it's important to keep in mind that As are about the WSes, not the BSes. I've never felt worse than I did in the months after d-day, but I was not a target of my W's A. From what WSes are reported to say, most of us aren't targets - the As are for the WSes, not against us. IMO, we're collateral damage.

Sisoon
I'm sorry, I can't buy into this.

How is it not against us? To me it absolutely is. The horrendous treatment, the disrespect, the lies, countless hours spent conspiring to hook up and keep their dirty secret, throwing the marriage into the garbage to bide their time WITH garbage, time taken away from spouses and kids in favor of the AP, incalculable hurt inflicted upon their spouse. And on and on.

An affair is a personal attack against the BS and the marriage. There has to be a level of hate, contempt, or loathing present to be able to do this. It is incomprehensible to me to say it had nothing to do with the BS. That only serves to make us even more insignificant IMO.

Infidelity is personal. Very personal. It stomps all over areas of your life in a way no other action does. It's an intrusion on your life, your memories, your family, your health, your sanity, your emotions, your sex life which is supposed to be exclusive with your spouse.

This was done TO me. I will never see it any other way.

Adaira posted 5/8/2019 10:14 AM

An affair is a personal attack against the BS and the marriage. There has to be a level of hate, contempt, or loathing present to be able to do this. It is incomprehensible to me to say it had nothing to do with the BS. That only serves to make us even more insignificant IMO.

Agreed. Affairs are abuse against your spouse. I truly believe my exWH felt contempt for me prior to his A and thatís why it was so easy for him to abuse me.

nekonamida posted 5/8/2019 10:22 AM

So could this be a reason? Could the fact that so many do indeed get away with it be a factor? Is there an arrogance, a dismissive attitude that tells them that chances are good they won't lose everything?

Absolutely!

How many WSes admit that they didn't even think their BS leaving was a possibility until the papers were filed? Maybe it's just me but I can't imagine not entertaining the idea that an A would lead to D if I was a WS. It seems obvious even under the best of circumstances.

numb&dumb posted 5/8/2019 10:29 AM

Note: This is no way diminishes the pain a BS feels. It is impossible to compare a BS pain to a WS's. That however does not mean it doesn't exist.

Based on many discussion with my W and is our situation (agree others experiences may vary). . .

When you believe you are a good and honest person who makes the choice to cheat it becomes very hard to keep believing that about yourself. The internal conflict causes you to lose your self worth. So you come up with all kinds of things to help yourself feel better (Cognitive dissonance), but on some level you know they are bullshit. So you begin to lie to yourself to the point you question who you even are anymore. This internal conflict takes up a lot of time, energy and headspace. You literally have no idea who you are anymore. The fear and anxiety rob you of even the simplest joys or moments of peace. You begin to hate yourself on more days than not. Every lie. Every loving thing your BS does burns like fire because you know you don't deserve it. You might even close yourself off to your BS because their love becomes painful. The A and everything related to it is built on sand that requires constant mental gymnastics to avoid a fragile emotional foundation that can broken by a simple shift in the wind.

Then Dday hits and you have to see your BS experience pain. Terrible pain. Tears. MAybe your BS doesn't want to live anymore. Pain you caused. Really what did you gain ? Nothing. Further the little self worth you did derive from someone else choosing to love and be M'd to you is gone. You might lose the one genuine thing that allowed you to see your own self worth. Further you just gave the one person in the world, whose opinion matters most to you, free reign to judge you without restraint. Even with the justifications and defensiveness outwardly you know internally they are coming from a genuine place you willingly left.

Some WS do cling to these self delusions for some time because they have gotten used to believing the lies they tell themselves (possibly the "fog."). Or they don't want to admit even to themselves that they aren't the good person they always thought they were. It is hard for most people to admit their minor faults. This one. This is a big fault.

In all of the honest conversations I've had with my W I realized that there are big consequences for a WS who chooses to cheat. Most of them are hard to see and rely on someone who we don't trust telling us about them (hint:rebuild trust first).

They lose themselves, possibly their marriage/family and gave the world an excuse to treat them the exact opposite of who they always believed themselves to be.

Again, I am further out and my W is/was remorseful. She is not a narcissist and she wanted the ability to become a good person again. She wouldn't have had the ability to do that without me finding my grace and supporting her.

I could be bitter about that, but I am not (on most days LOL). I got a wife that meets a lot of my needs and gives me "room" to be an individual too. I finally got the W I always wanted. The price I paid ? Yeah there was a price, but those checks cleared a long time ago. I choose to focus on being content and happy in my life with my family. Plus I get to brag about how awesome I am without relying on anyone else's grace. I was, and remain today a "good" person. Integrity intact. Heck I can now add generosity and selfless to that already good list. My W can say she is a good person today, but has to admit to hurting a lot of people that loved her to get there. The price paid was not worth it to her. However she can reap the rewards or dwell on the debt that has already been forgiven. As long as she appreciates that forgiveness it stays forgiven.

In the end, to me, that is not getting away with anything.

Dismayed2012 posted 5/8/2019 10:37 AM

I think part of the problem is no-fault states. Make the laws consistent throughout the country where in cases of proven infidelity the BS gets everything 100% period, the WS loses everything 100% period, and the WS has to pay the BS full child support (gender or 'stay-at-home' doesn't matter) until the kids are out of college and full spousal support for the number of years married or until death whichever is less, regardless of what their earning potential is. That might cause a drop in the percentage of infidelity. :)

MalibuBayBreeze posted 5/8/2019 13:44 PM

Numb&dumb
I only wish my WH put in the time and effort your WW has. It makes a huge difference in perspective as a BS. Had I seen true remorse, true effort, my thoughts would be in line with yours. However that is not the case.

After not attending one session of therapy with me as I requested, I stopped speaking to my WH for days. He just faded into the background for me. Something in me shut down. A few days later he came to me and I assume he believed he would placate me back into submission. I wasn't having it. I have so much to say to him but I know any time I do attempt to communicate there is a ticking clock nearby and at any moment he will get up and walk away.

Why? Because he can't handle the ugly truth. He can't open up and answer the questions I have. I was able to get some things off my chest but really it was akin to chipping and ice cube off of an iceberg. Sure enough he just lay there sighing and occasionally saying OMG as I spoke. Three years out I guess he's still stunned to know I'm in pain. So he leaves the room and I was calm. No tears. No yelling. I just simply acknowledged that he was doing his usual bit. Getting up and walking away which isn't going to do one thing to help me move forward. That this will never subside until there is communication.

The next evening after attending a memorial he came to me again. Said he's sorry, he loves me and that I'm right when I said I am the best thing that ever happened to him. Wanted to hold me. Some tears even managed to come out of his eyes. I thought we possibly were reaching a breakthrough. Nope. Not even close. None, and I mean NONE of my questions were answered. Each time he digs his heels IN a little piece of me digs OUT.

He can keep stone walling me. I can't change that. Do I wish he had the capability to communicate with me on a deep level? Yes. Will it happen? Probably not. If it ever does it will be a bigger shock and upset than Country House, a 65 to 1 horse being crowned winner.

AbandonedGuy posted 5/8/2019 15:16 PM

Beautiful post numb&dumb. I'm glad you pointed out the difference between narcs and normal people with things like remorse and reflection. I'm probably as indifferent about it as I can be at this point, but I feel strongly like my ex "got away with it". Sure, I took some cash on hand and furniture, but she was setting up quite the cushy side-life for herself.

She gets to continue making money hand over fist at her job, plus she gets to live in AP's house rent-free. Whenever she sells her (formerly our) house, the surplus gets banked and it'll more than cover what I took in cash. He's 10 years older than her and divorced, so it's not unfathomable to think that he's treating her like a princess to some degree--which is what she's always wanted, so I have to believe she's getting that fulfilled in some way, and who better than an uglier, older man with the means to do so. She's getting her deep-seated Daddy Complex met with an older fellow, something I doubt she's even aware of. She hates driving, so I'm sure he drives both of them to the office. They sit next to each other, so this control freak bitch can keep an eye on her new lover 24/7. Her friends have always just been coworkers because she can't maintain a true deep friendship to save her life, so now her beau intimately knows all her friends! How cool! And she has almost no interests, for her it's always been about work and the accolades she receives there, so now she's got someone who can talk about her two favorite things until the heat death of the universe: work and her. Her family has always been a bunch of enablers who will ignore what she did and never make her face hard truths about it. Oh, and she's disgustingly, deathly skinny now (at least last I saw her) and I'm sure new BF isn't going to say anything, so she gets to flaunt her beloved anorexia once again.

It's all chronic and palm trees for this knucklehead. Zero repercussions for her actions. A lot of us bank on the emotional toll it must take on a WS in the aftermath of DDay, but when the person is bereft of decency and remorse (for *any* action), we can't wrap ourselves in that blanket anymore. I've had to accept that this is just what happened and thank god that I was able to bounce back so quickly. I'm doing way better than I would be doing if she had stuck around, or even if she hadn't cheated, so I wouldn't change a thing. But as far as I'm concerned, that gross skank made off with the spoils scot-free. Having to accept that harsh truth definitely put some hair on my chest.

hadji posted 5/8/2019 18:21 PM

The loss of 'the special' is the hardest part for me. And I think it is gone forever. I don't believe in soulmates, or that there is only one. There are over 7 billion people on the planet, so odds are good that there is more than one 'only one'. I'm not looking for anyone else, but the loss of the special has been the source of many IC sessions...and if that is what it means to get away with it, I don't want to live that pain.

I totally get that. But in the context of the thread what I meant to say was, that consequence of the A should be equally hard on your WW and you, assuming your WW now realizes what she has thrown away. I wanted to say, she isn't "getting away with it" as the original post suggests.

crazyblindsided posted 5/8/2019 18:35 PM

For some reason I don't see my WS as getting away with it. I put him and his MOW through literal hell. My WS still hopes I turn back into the woman he married... not in this lifetime

I've basically given up on the M. If my WS wants to save it he has to do a lot more than he has been doing, get into IC, and face his Narc tendencies... until then it's all about ME

northeasternarea posted 5/9/2019 10:58 AM

My WH didnít get away with anything. And his cheating was a reflection of his brokenness. I didnít cause it and there was nothing that I could have done to prevent it. His cheating wasnít about me. What it changed was the way that I see him and the way that I see us. That is his loss.

I refuse to let his actions leave me broken. I know, and he knows that I could leave him tomorrow and have a good life. Itís up to him to make staying worthwhile.

numb&dumb posted 5/9/2019 15:21 PM

Malibu- at two to three years out my situation was kind of like yours. I was detached couldn't care less if my M, much less my W, survived anything.

I think you have to keep working on you and be less dependent on your H as a source of all your moods. What I mean by that is his reactions to whatever you do seems to have quite a bit of say on how you really do feel. Maybe I am wrong, but just an observation.

Even after Dday our WS have agency and can make choices. We can too BTW.

Why? Because he can't handle the ugly truth.

I would say he is afraid of the truth and what that really means. It irritates you because he isn't owning his past choices by being able to sit with the consequences. He pushes you just to brink and then hoovers you back in. I agree it is slowly chipping away at your desire to put effort towards R.

How do you think that you could change this dynamic ? You do have things you can do yourself. You can't make him change, but you can inspire him to what to be better. Building yourself into the awesomeness of awesome (new word, dibs on trademark). Ask for space, which he will agree with, and begin investing all of that time and energy into yourself. It sounds like you re doing IC already. What other things have you always wanted to do to better yourself ?

Maybe start there. The least he could do is support you in that. Seeing you move forward without him having a say has a powerful effect on some people. Worst case it helps you achieve something and feel good about it.

During that 2-3 year time frame aside from IC I resumed old hobbies. Reached out to old friends. Had a social life outside of the house. It really did help me in a lot of ways. I diversified my life beyond being a husband and a father.

OptionedOut posted 5/9/2019 15:39 PM

They have immature brains and fail to look at consequences. Or they simply don't care. Worse, they are so narcissistic, that it doesn't matter what the BS thinks. Maybe there are more kinds of cheaters. Who knows.

And for some, until it happens to them, they'll never learn.

Some are so surprised when the AP cheats on them. They're hurt beyond belief.

Some think that a BS who stays is condoning their behavior. If it's for money and kids, why not keep fooling around? Just do the dishes and be pleasant and have a cheater all you can fuck buffet!

Trying to figure out why someone willingly screws over the person they purport to love and want to spend their life with is like asking a penguin to mow the lawn.

[This message edited by OptionedOut at 3:46 PM, May 9th (Thursday)]

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