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islesguy posted 11/20/2018 13:04 PM


Wow, I had no idea that I had been making my wife the bad guy in my posts, she has said the same to me but I didn't understand where that was coming from and just defended myself to her which I am sure further upset her. I appreciate you writing this all out the way you did.

Zugzwang posted 11/21/2018 09:22 AM

Islesguy, you want to stop that? Then stop mentioning her and talking about her. Start talking about you without pointing to her. If she is the cause and stimuli, then you aren't letting go of the outcome. Take her out of the equation.

Man, just take the extra step and let go. You can do this, but you just have to give up everything except wanting to be someone better. You would never believe how easy it all gets after you choose to just let it go and become vulnerable. When stop scrambling to keep it all together and save face. There is nothing left to save face about or hide. I hope it hits you soon.

Zugzwang posted 11/21/2018 09:28 AM

I know people say I am harsh with the 2x4s. I get frustrated because I know how easy it becomes, but how hard it is to do. It just that you are willing to lose everything to save nothing. What you are protecting is worthless. What you have the potential to gain is priceless. Once you choose to be that disgusted with yourself, to become that vulnerable, to really want that just think WTF was I afraid of? Why didn't I do this sooner? There is nothing to be afraid of. Really. I just hope it isn't too late. Even if it is, you still become a better person and things may not be what you wanted but it will still offer a lot to be grateful for.

islesguy posted 11/22/2018 07:08 AM


I know I talk about her often in relation to my shame and you have helped me see that not only am I doing this but worse pointing to her as part of it, yes, I need to stop it, I know I do.

But, I don't understand the disgusted enough piece as I feel very disgusted with myself. How was it different for you, where was the turning point between being disgusted and disgusted enough?

islesguy posted 11/23/2018 08:25 AM


OK, I am feeling very disgusted with myself as i know that there were at least 3 times yesterday that I said something that my BS saw as defensive and maybe it was, I am not sure, all I know is that I am sick of it because there was nothing to be defensive about. It is just a crappy pattern of behavior from me and my history of being defensive and my BS's expectations now of getting defensiveness. I will try harder today to provide no doubt that there is any defensiveness.

hopeandhealing posted 11/23/2018 09:36 AM

I am not making excuses for my many years of laziness and taking my BS for granted but a large part of my complacency is not knowing what to do.

This statement above, though not the content of the original post about your daughter, struck me as it has been my experience you offer a lot of "buts" in your statement, often times self deprecating, but nonetheless present. Listen to everytime you use the word "but", or a similar word, "however" etc. You literally prefaced your sentence with "I am not making excuses" followed 100% by an excuse. Prefacing with "I am not making excuses" means nothing, it doesn't excuse the rest of what you said! It's like saying "with all due respect"...followed by something awful. It doesn't make it ok just because you said "with all due respect" first, it doesn't lessen the rest of the message!

You are entrenched in this behaviour. You can not expect a different outcome when you continue to engage in the same behaviours. Stop with the self deprecation and get on with it. I agree with Zugwang's 2x4 and frankly, I think for you, a bigger piece of lumbar is required. I am not sure how you don't get it with all the people who go through the effort to chime in and give you feedback over such an extended period of time. Ironically, though you at times make the effort to respond to posters, often times you are deflecting their comments or making excuses/ clarifying what you said as something else.

With respect to the original query, I don't think you involve children in marital discord, but I also believe it is ok that children see us as imperfect, that we all make mistakes and have to live with the consequences thereof. That's life. It is how we own those mistakes, take accountability and commit to do better/differently which can redefine us. Teaching children about natural consequence is fundamental and necessary. It is our job of a parents, both WS and BS to help shape these little people into functioning, healthy, independent adults.

[This message edited by hopeandhealing at 9:39 AM, November 23rd (Friday)]

islesguy posted 11/24/2018 06:46 AM


I am not making excuses for my many years of laziness and taking my BS for granted but a large part of my complacency is not knowing what to do.

You are completely right and I didn't even see that my statement is an excuse. I don't know why I don't see it in myself. When I was writing that I was thinking in my head that I am responsible for everything and there is no excuses and yet, that was the outcome of my thoughts. Ugh, it makes me so angry to again and again have such basic things have to be pointed out to me.

Zugzwang posted 11/24/2018 10:10 AM

Hard to explain. When I stopped being disgusted with the situation and circumstances and was just disgusted with myself. I couldn't sit in my own skin or the same room as myself. Probably close to a point where if I hadn't chose change, I would have rather had been dead. Are you really disgusted with yourself or are you just disgusted with the situation? Big difference. When I was disgusted with myself, I wasn't defensive. Can anyone else explain it better that has gotten there? It was like being fractured. Sitting there and looking at myself and seeing the two choices. Once I chose, I chose. I never looked back. Take the blue pill or the red pill type of shit. You are also not being realistic about the change. Once I chose it didn't mean I changed over nite. It just meant I became vulnerable and not defensive. There were set backs in my behavior here and there. I didn't see it as I lost and gave up and whined about it. I saw it for what it was. Realistically, I acknowledged it, learned from it, and moved on. It was a journey. Not a shut down if one time I felt selfish. I didn't throw self pity parties. I talked to my wife and fixed it. You self defeat yourself. You fuck up and then you give up saying you will never get this right. I just didn't do that type of shit. I just plowed ahead.

Zugzwang posted 11/24/2018 10:16 AM

Are you always formulating a response to something when you read or talk to someone? Just listen. It takes time. I had to learn that in MC. If you are formulating a response, then you are defensive and protecting yourself. Stop protecting and just let it go. What is the worse it is going to do? I mean really. We are all strangers. Does a strangers opinion matter that much and shake you to the core? You need to get some self confidence and self love. If you feel secure in yourself, others opinions don't matter and you stop seeing it as attacks and see it for what it is. Communication and understanding. Even with your wife. Stop viewing it as attacks on your self. You don't need everyone to respect or love you. You just need yourself and work from there. The people that matter most and stop there.

islesguy posted 11/24/2018 23:04 PM


Are you always formulating a response to something when you read or talk to someone?

Yes, this is absolutely a problem for me and often winds up with not hearing my BS, I know this is the case, yet in the moment, I am still thinking about when and what I can respond, often to defend myself.

Does a strangers opinion matter that much and shake you to the core?

Unfortunately yes, I can say this is definitely true and again I am not sure why, especially in a forum like this that is anonymous.

What did you mean by this?

You just need yourself and work from there. The people that matter most and stop there.

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