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Betrayed Menz Thread-Part 33

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Incarnate posted 10/7/2019 18:03 PM

Hey Incarnate - sorry for my absence. Life has been keeping me super busy these last several days.

No worries at all. I was absent for a bit too. Life, work, kids, it all happens.
I understand your anger. That's a tough beast to reckon with. When it came to dealing with the AP, I viewed the inside of my head as the most valuable real estate I could think of. I mean, if the inside of my head is like Bora Bora, do I really want the POSOM as part of my scenery? Hell nah. Get the fuck out of my head, you sack of greasy swine excrement. That mind exercise ended up helping me a lot. Almost nine years later, and the anger hasn't gone completely away, but I don't think about him nearly as often as I used to. Not worth it.

I 100% agree, and I'm doing my best to work towards it. I haven't missed a therapy/counseling appointment yet, and I don't plan on it. I need to get this fury under control. My only really effective recourses, as of right now, are to physically remove myself from my own home or to take a Lorazepam and drug myself into quiescence. And fuck that. I'm not drugging myself for the peace of mind of a cheating gutterslut, her fuckboy, or his cottage cheese walrus whore. I wish to the gods that I had never seen those photos of her with them. Seeing my wife with another man inside her, and then seeing my wife with another (absolutely disgusting) woman doing things to her... Even now, it's making my blood boil again thinking about it.
Also, why not block those fuckers from your facebook, so you don't see any of their shit, and they don't come through your "suggested friends" ticker feed, or whatever they call that thing. I ended up blocking POSOM, his family, and his friends. I really only like to go out there to interact with people that I care about, and share pics of my kid, look at people's food, etc. Blocking them is like cleaning house, and you have control over it. As you start going through your separation process, it's an excellent time to start purging people/things/reminders from your environment that aren't healthy for you.

He had blocked me before I blocked him, so I didn't have the ability to do so. I blocked the OW, but he was outside of my grasp until this morning.

I got that cowardly little fuckboy sunnuvawhore, though.

Were you able to physically channel your rage today in a constructive manner today? When you are feeling like you've got electricity going through your veins, that's the best time to get in some good workout therapy.

I ended up going to the beach. Got a few miles of walking in, picked up a bunch of rocks, brought some home, with was nice. Brain was still in a shit way, as I just let my mind wander, and it wandered over the pictures of my ex that set me off and so on, but I mean, at least I was in a neutral atmosphere to let it all burn off.
Have you thought of integrating any of this stuff into your writing? That might be another interesting way to let off some of the mental steam you're dealing with.

Oh, 100% I do. My learned survival skills get integrated, my armoring and jewelry and blacksmithing/forging skills, my woodworking and bladesmithing, HEMA fighting, all of it.

A protagonist that isn't exactly fully protagonist in my series has committed adultery, and she is shone in a very difficult light. I'm thinking it's going to slowly get worse

Hope your day has gotten better, man.

I appreciate that. It hasn't precisely notably improved, but it has evened out.

Incarnate posted 10/7/2019 18:07 PM

RideItOut:

I 100% get you. My ex was the most boring thing in bed imaginable for the last few years, then on her first meeting with her new partners, it was a week of threesomes, DP, oral, and every other thing ever. Yaknow, the stuff that she told me over and over she wasn't into and would never have an interest in. She went 100% pornstar, and yeah, that bruises the ego more than a little. Pretty salty about that.

But I don't know that I want that, precisely. Do I want some spice in t he bedroom? Hell yeah, I do. Do I necessarily want to make sure everyone knows the safeword every time? No, not at all. Sometimes some comfort sex is nice. Sometimes some energetic wrestling and breaking a sweat is good. Sometimes ropes and cuffs and blindfolds are the flavor of the evening. I would be completely happy with someone who was willing to experiment in a safe, sane, and consensual manner.

[This message edited by Incarnate at 6:13 PM, October 7th (Monday)]

Walloped posted 10/7/2019 18:40 PM

Rideitout,

I hear what your saying, but I donít think itís a blanket statement you can apply to all women - that pornstar sex shows how much they care. So, as you pointed out, bringing that expectation into a new relationship isnít very healthy.

Having said that, Iíd want to have an open enough relationship where we could discuss the pornstar acts and where sheíd be willing to try them with me because she cares that much about me. If she or I doesnít like them afterwards, thatís cool. No one should be pressured into doing things they donít want to. But you donít know unless you try. So itís the willingness to give it a go that count IMO and that shows how much they care.

In my case, Iím not in a new relationship, but my wife was willing to do with me everything she did with the OM. And sheís been much more open / adventurous in the bedroom. I know sheís trying send me a message, and thatís okay. Besides, Iím a simple man. If she offers pornstar sex Iím not one to turn it down.

WornDown posted 10/7/2019 20:05 PM

I think that if I were dating a woman who wasn't "full porn star", I'd probably move on for someone who was, simply because it's become obvious to me, for at least some women, that tells you a lot about how they feel about you.

Why do you think all women have the same behaviors?

Every person (man or woman) is different. What they like to eat is different. What kind of music they like is different. What they like in the sack is different.

You still need to work through the (mind) effects of infidelity. A lot of your posts show that - that you seem to think all women should do whatever YOU want to do to them sexually, otherwise they don't love you.

Honestly, that thought is more about you, and your state of mind, not them/theirs.

Butforthegrace posted 10/7/2019 20:11 PM

Let me ask you guys something. If your wife went "full porn star" in the A, as mine did, and you were to D and get into another relationship, how would that experience color the new relationship(s)? I have trouble thinking about it at all, but, when I apply it to "what does this tell me about women", sad to say, I think that if I were dating a woman who wasn't "full porn star", I'd probably move on for someone who was, simply because it's become obvious to me, for at least some women, that tells you a lot about how they feel about you. I used to think this (as a young man) and was then convinced otherwise (by my W), and now, sadly, I think I'm back to believing it.

I touched on this concept in a post a long time ago that got me into a bunch of shit with the ladies. The gist of my comment then was that my experience from my single years is that there is a proportional relationship between how far along the "porn star" spectrum a woman is, and how far along the "raving lunatic" spectrum. The dirtier and crazier in bed, the crazier and more unpredictably lunatic they are in person. It's so common that it's axiomatic among single men.

I do think there is something to the theory that a married woman who goes "full porn star" in her A is at least temporarily crazy.

So, if I found myself single again, I'd want to sample some of the porn star stuff, but then look for somebody with a normal but healthy sexuality.

Incarnate posted 10/8/2019 16:05 PM

Feeling on edge today. Like I'm balancing on the blade of a knife, and if I slip I'm going to be sliced in half.

Home alone for now. Kids are at school for another half hour or so, then I get to stop being Mr Writer and be Mr Dad again.

I feel like these are all just skins that my skeleton slips into for the time being. I get to put on a face and paint on a smile and make my kids happy, then when they go t o sleep, I take that skin off and I just sit here, all bones and blood, until I can figure out how to climb into my Writer skin and pretend to be a good storyteller. Occasionally my friends reach out to me and I take them up on their offer of going out, and I climb into my Incarnate skin, and I pretend to be a person for a while.

And over in the corner, covered in dust and mold and rot, is my Husband Skin. It's been used to clean up the wetspots of several affairs. I wish I could clean it up and put it back on.

I'm working on this Boyfriend Skin, but I've never made one of those. I don't know what to make it out of. Leather? Silk? Denim? Chainmaille? Steel? Oak? What the FUCK do I make this fucking thing out of? Meanwhile, I have people in my life that are trying to burn down my workshop, stealing my tools, scattering my materials, and then if I lash out to stop them, to tell them the truth of where things go, I get told that I'm a horrible fucking person. I'm treated like some insane, evil supervillain.

I'm so fucking tired. I'm gaining weight again; I'm back up to 267 from a low of 258. I try to focus on proofreading my novel, and my brain is scattered to every corner of everywhere.

And I know that my friends are of the sort that say men SHOULD be able to talk about their problems, but when I do, I just take this massive verbal shit, this huge vomit of words, just like right now, and it pours all over everyone, and I see my friends take another step back. I'm not allowed to hurt from this. I should have seen it coming. The betrayal shouldn't hurt because she left me without telling me but she left me first. My knowing beforehand shouldn't have mattered.

I feel like my body is full of lightning and lead and potential and poison. I heel like my heart is empty. I feel like my soul died and my body just hasn't caught up. I try so, so hard not to fight, not to be angry and aggressive. I've even doubled my meds to the point where my prescription won't continue to support my usage indefinitely (yes I told my doctor, she is on board), just to control myself around my ex. I did that for her benefit when... why? Why the hell should I do ANYTHING for her benefit? My benefit certainly isn't (wasn't) at the forefront of her mind, and since she wanted to leave, why should it have been?

I need to get this book published. I need to get it edited and formatted. I'm so close to done, and I have another I have to work on. I need to proceed with my therapy. My next appointment is on Thursday, and it's going to be fucking intense again.

Tomorrow is eight weeks out. I am so incredibly lonely. I feel like my circle is shrinking. I feel like it's closing in. And I still feel like I can't talk about it, and even if I can, i feel like I shouldn't, and even if I should, I feel like people that I don't know are against me are going to judge me for it and use it against me. i feel like the truth isn't wanted, that reality isn't wanted. And sometimes I don't even now what reality is anymore. It's been rewritten for me by so many people over my life that I wonder, so I even know what the FUCK reality is? My father, my best friend, my ex wife... all of them rewrote my understanding of what was real to fit their agendas, and now it's up tome to reassemble it, and I have to be able to trust the people around me to help me do that but... how am I supposed to do that?

Fffffffffffffffuck. That's the mood for the day.

[This message edited by Incarnate at 5:20 PM, October 8th (Tuesday)]

sisoon posted 10/8/2019 16:55 PM

Incarnate,

One thing that helped me talk about my feelings was saying it so a 6 year old could understand. Alas, I keep forgetting to do that when I'm with my W - but when I remember, I get something out of sharing.

You may think doing that means giving up your ability to paint pictures with words. I'd be afraid of that myself, if I could paint pictures with words. It may work if you see it as adding a skill to your already awesome skillset.

*****

Pornstar sex? Technique is only part of the pleasure equation. Why not go for mutually satisfying sex that grows out of both partners' desire to please themselves and each other?

Rideitout posted 10/8/2019 18:38 PM

Pornstar sex? Technique is only part of the pleasure equation. Why not go for mutually satisfying sex that grows out of both partners' desire to please themselves and each other?

You say this as if it's a choice. And, speaking for myself only, you may as well tell me "why not go be attracted to men instead, then you'll find someone who enjoys NSA sex as much as you do" (and you'd be more right than wrong with that statement). You can't just "unwant" something.

Sure, if I had a magic wand, I'd tap myself on the head and say "Only desire your wife, when she wants it only, and no more liking kinky stuff!" Make my life much easier. Sadly, at least for me, it doesn't work that way. Porn, at least for me (mainstream porn, NOT the niche stuff) just videotaped my desires and fantasy. It didn't put anything into my head, it just showed me what it looks like to do X (or that people really do X and I'm not alone in desiring it). If you go back way before mainstream porn, there are all kinds of accounts of people doing all manners of kink. Figured it out all by themselves. Must have been interesting, "Hunny, do you think that will fit there?!".

Sure, it would be great if I could just decide to want what you describe above. I lived most of my marriage pretending that's what I wanted. And look at what that did! Now you guys have to deal with me, scarred by the fact that my W went "full porn star" on the first date after I spent most of my adult life trying to come to terms with losing those things. Well.. Guess what? It's not what I want. I want to have fun in the bedroom. I want to explore, push limits and have my limits pushed. I want to be in love, afraid, horny, in pain, and about to orgasm all at the same time. I want it all, and, you know what? I really don't think that's unreasonable anymore. And even if it is, I'd never settle for less again, just like the BW who would never settle for a man who doesn't respect her again, I'm never settling for a woman who doesn't want to make my, her, and our sexual dreams (which are 3 independent things) come true together. Hard line? Yes. Unfair? Perhaps/probably. But you know what, I tried "playing by the rules" sexually very, very few times in my life, all of them turned out badly. F**k the rules, I'm allow to have desires, and I'm also allowed to say "well, we're not going to work as a couple" if those desires aren't met. Just like my W can, or any other woman I dated.

I can't promise much, but I can promise you this, I will never again be that guy who needs to call up his wife's lover to ask "Hey man, just wanted to know, does my wife like this? Or, mind telling me how this was with her, I'd like to imagine it because that's as close as I can get to what you got".

Yeah, it's probably a horrible thing to say, and worse to think. I'm just out of f**ks to give on this particular topic. That does not mean I want to hurt people sexually, or that I want to be an ogre, but, my sexual needs/desires f**king matter too, and I'm never again going to pretend that they don't.

sisoon posted 10/9/2019 09:05 AM

** posting as a member **

when I apply it to "what does this tell me about women"....
I'll be frank: if a BH wants to heal, it's probably best not to think one's XWW says much about 'women' in general. Not even Wilt Chamberlain had a sample random enough to support generalizing about women.

... sad to say, I think that if I were dating a woman who wasn't "full porn star", I'd probably move on for someone who was, simply because it's become obvious to me, for at least some women, that tells you a lot about how they feel about you.
Bro, you are saying that you use pornstar sex - almost any sex, I bet - for external validation. You have just written - and you've written this before - that sex is more than sex to you.

So why do you keep stating the opposite? What are you getting out of lying to yourself (and to SI)?

I lived most of my marriage pretending that's what I wanted.
Gently, you've changed 'mutually satisfying' to 'pretend.'

There can be no pretending in mutually satisfying sex. The partners have to be honest to reach satisfaction. But you jumped to 'pretending.'

I'm really sorry your W betrayed you. I'm really sorry you were not satisfied. At the same time, I'd really like you to take responsibility for pretending. It was your choice, and other choices were available to you.

You betrayed yourself. We all have, in some way. You did it in a way that meant a lot to you. Accept it. Accepting that you betrayed yourself is the best first step in ensuring that you won't do it again.

And look at what that did! Now you guys have to deal with me, scarred by the fact that my W went "full porn star" on the first date after I spent most of my adult life trying to come to terms with losing those things.
I'm not sure you're scarred. The wound seems raw to me, still open and infected. It's been years, bro. Why not get the help of a good IC?

[This message edited by sisoon at 4:49 PM, October 9th (Wednesday)]

LosferWords posted 10/9/2019 12:35 PM

Occasionally my friends reach out to me and I take them up on their offer of going out, and I climb into my Incarnate skin, and I pretend to be a person for a while.

This is healthy. Later on you will be able to look back and say, "Thanks, fellas, for taking me out and just letting me be myself for a couple of hours when I was going through this shit." Doesn't feel like it AT ALL right now, but this is good for you.

And over in the corner, covered in dust and mold and rot, is my Husband Skin. It's been used to clean up the wetspots of several affairs. I wish I could clean it up and put it back on.

Nope. Your Husband Skin is intact, clean, and contains nothing but integrity. You've hung it up in the closet for the time being, and maybe you'll put it back on for someone more deserving. Maybe not, if you don't want to. Your choice. Either way, you did nothing wrong here.

I'm working on this Boyfriend Skin, but I've never made one of those. I don't know what to make it out of. Leather? Silk? Denim? Chainmaille? Steel? Oak? What the FUCK do I make this fucking thing out of? Meanwhile, I have people in my life that are trying to burn down my workshop, stealing my tools, scattering my materials, and then if I lash out to stop them, to tell them the truth of where things go, I get told that I'm a horrible fucking person. I'm treated like some insane, evil supervillain.

Just be you. Why make it a Boyfriend Skin? Wear whatever skin you like, and find comfort and pride in it. Fuck anyone and everyone who shows you negativity for being yourself.

I'm so fucking tired. I'm gaining weight again; I'm back up to 267 from a low of 258. I try to focus on proofreading my novel, and my brain is scattered to every corner of everywhere.

Eh, work on that if you want. If it makes you feel any better, I'm fucking 295 right now. I am way overweight. The last two months haven't helped with a couple of injuries I've sustained, but I plan to shed it. Of course your brain is scattered everywhere. You've been dealt a freaking huge blow to your world, bro.

And I know that my friends are of the sort that say men SHOULD be able to talk about their problems, but when I do, I just take this massive verbal shit, this huge vomit of words, just like right now, and it pours all over everyone, and I see my friends take another step back. I'm not allowed to hurt from this. I should have seen it coming. The betrayal shouldn't hurt because she left me without telling me but she left me first. My knowing beforehand shouldn't have mattered.

Not all friends are going to properly understand and comprehend what you are going through. Looking at your story in your profile, you have gone down a very unique path in life. You've dealt with a lot of stuff that other people haven't. You can't expect others to fully understand and identify. On top of that there are stigmas regarding why people cheat that people attach themselves to when they haven't been there themselves. You have to take or leave friendships for what they are, and be mindful of who you share stuff with. It's rough. Definitely not easy. It will really make you appreciate the friends who truly are there for you, though.

I feel like my body is full of lightning and lead and potential and poison. I heel like my heart is empty. I feel like my soul died and my body just hasn't caught up. I try so, so hard not to fight, not to be angry and aggressive. I've even doubled my meds to the point where my prescription won't continue to support my usage indefinitely (yes I told my doctor, she is on board), just to control myself around my ex. I did that for her benefit when... why? Why the hell should I do ANYTHING for her benefit? My benefit certainly isn't (wasn't) at the forefront of her mind, and since she wanted to leave, why should it have been?

At this point you're doing this for your benefit, and the benefit of your girls. Moving forward, if you make decisions based upon what is best for your girls, that will provide a lot of enlightenment. I'm saying this because that's how I've navigated a lot of dark paths: what is best for my son? The shit works, man! I don't remember who told me that advice, but wanted to pass that along.

Anyway, how are you doing today?

LosferWords posted 10/9/2019 12:47 PM

I want to have fun in the bedroom. I want to explore, push limits and have my limits pushed. I want to be in love, afraid, horny, in pain, and about to orgasm all at the same time. I want it all, and, you know what? I really don't think that's unreasonable anymore.

RIO - I don't think these are unreasonable needs if you find the right partner to meet them, and she enjoys this just as much as you do. Not at all.

I'm not looking to find a partner right now, but if I do end up wanting to find someone, I would want her to be physically and emotionally transparent with me. That would mean more than "porn star sex". I can get that for a couple hundred bucks from a local provider if I want. That's not what I'm looking for at all. Eventually I would like to find a genuine connection. If I don't, no bigs in the grand scheme of things.

Incarnate posted 10/9/2019 13:21 PM

Only time for a quick update.

I'm in the great norcal blackout area. No power for 2-7 days. Hopefully less. We'll see. Will try to keep busy and update when I can.

Thank the gods for a solar charging battery pack.

Rideitout posted 10/9/2019 19:27 PM

Bro, you are saying that you use pornstar sex - almost any sex, I bet - for external validation. You have just written - and you've written this before - that sex is more than sex to you.
So why do you keep stating the opposite? What are you getting out of lying to yourself (and to SI)?

OK, let's say your right, I throw up my hands and say "you win". Your right, sex is just about, or primarily about validation to me. In fact, even though it's the best physical feeling I've ever experienced on this earth, for some reason, that's not the point of it at all, I'd do it if it hurt, because I want that validation so desperately.

Now, I don't think that's true, in fact, I think it's nearly as far from the truth as you can get, but, let's just say/suppose it is. What does that change? I feel like when I have this conversation with people, it's like if I say "yes, sex is validation to me" it's like some light bulb will go on somewhere and shine light on.. On what? I'm really not sure, which is why I pose the question. Let's say it is all about validation and nothing to do with the pleasant sensations, then what?

Also, as an aside, please do not call me a liar. I may be hiding things from myself, that I can get behind and examine. But I am not intentionally lying to you or other members, and I don't think it's fair to say that; I've posted here for a long time, and have been nothing if not consistent. You have no reason to think I'm a liar other than my view of sex, or at least the view that I think I have, doesn't align with your own. I see a lot of posters (typically male) who post things that make my antenna shoot right up, "that doesn't sound believable" when they have a LOT of incentive to lie (WH's for example, talking about sex with the AP) and while I may dig in, I can't recall a single time I called one of them a liar, even if I'm 99% sure they are. I don't deserve that label, "asshole" perhaps, and "blunt/direct" for sure. But I am not a liar, in fact, if I was, I probably never would have wound up here because I would have just lied, told my W what she wanted to hear, and kept the "brokered peace" at home. I will not tell anyone "what they want to hear", I will tell them, as best I can, the truth, and the reasons behind it if they care to ask.

There can be no pretending in mutually satisfying sex. The partners have to be honest to reach satisfaction. But you jumped to 'pretending.'
At the same time, I'd really like you to take responsibility for pretending. It was your choice, and other choices were available to you.

I was, in my M before the A, pretending that the sex we were having was "what I wanted". I asked for more, she said no, I told her I was OK with it and pretended it didn't hurt me. It did hurt me, but, the rest wasn't pretend, I was "OK" (not good, but OK) with it. The only pretend was acting like it didn't bother me, and frankly, I'm not sure what else to do in that situation. We talked it over many times, I'd express my desires, she'd shoot them down, and sometimes we'd compromise on something else. It's not like I was pretending not to want things, just pretending about the impact/importance of those things. And, like I said above, what's the alternative here? "I would like to have anal sex. No, I'm not into that." I think my response in the past would have been something like "OK, well, if you ever change your mind, I'd love to do that together". Which was true. But I was hurt, of course I was. So, what would have been more authentic? Moping around the house? Acting mean? Getting a D or saying "I won't marry you without this"? The question was asked, answered, I gave some color, that was the end of it. But I'd love to hear, using that particular example, how one can "not pretend" while also not compelling/guilting the other partner into it and continuing the relationship. Yes, I wanted it, yes it hurt me, no it wasn't worth ending the relationship. So, I guess, putting the question to group, what's the authentic response there that meets the above criteria?

You betrayed yourself. We all have, in some way. You did it in a way that meant a lot to you. Accept it. Accepting that you betrayed yourself is the best first step in ensuring that you won't do it again.

In this context, I'd say we all betray ourselves. But we call it "compromise". And it's a reasonable thing to do, yes, your betraying your individual wants and desires for the sake of another person. I think that's OK, so long as it's not totally one sided, in fact, I think that's basically a prerequisite for a healthy relationship/marriage. I've done that many times in my M, and, frankly, just about every time, it was the right thing to do. The thing that's different here, of course, is that I betrayed myself FOR NO REASON. Imagine if my wife desperately wanted something, I refused it to her repeatedly with the excuse "Can't do it now, need to go to the store". And my W accepts that, "well, he is busy, he needs to go shopping, and I understand he can't do what I want". Reasonable compromise in a relationship. Or it seems to be, until I tell you that I'm not actually going to the store, I'm going to bar to hang out with friends to avoid doing whatever it is my W wants me to do. Now it's very different, it's just me being an a**hole, this isn't compromise, it's just me intentionally not doing something she wants to either spite her or put my own needs entirely before hers. Also, I'm lying when I tell her "no, need to go to store", much like she lied to me with "no, I don't do that" (which would have been true if she'd added "with you" to the end of the statement, but clearly was NOT true at all for her as a general statement). And that's really it, it was a compromise for me made in bad faith by her. I gave up something under false pretenses, and that's a whole different ball of wax compared to healthy compromise in a relationship.

I'm not sure you're scarred. The wound seems raw to me, still open and infected. It's been years, bro. Why not get the help of a good IC?

Why, when I have the free therapy here?? I've been in IC consistently since the A, and we do discuss this topic frequently. I would, however, agree with you, the wound is still open and infected. But the infection isn't spreading, so.. Maybe that's the best I can hope for?

Loukas posted 10/9/2019 23:15 PM

RIO, do you think you could ever be fully sexually satisfied?

Rideitout posted 10/10/2019 04:55 AM

RIO, do you think you could ever be fully sexually satisfied?

Yeah, sure. I have been in the past with other women. And, honestly, I am now. While I put a lot of emphasis on the "dirty dozen", the few specific acts that comprised my W's A that were not offered/allowable to me (the same acts that come up with some regularity in BH conversations), those things were neither 100% required or 100% of the solution to my sexual satisfaction. Now, let me clarify one point, after she did them with the AP, they became 100% required, but, before that, they were not a requirement to reach "full sexual satisfaction" for me. Taking the affair out of it for a minute, the "100% solution" for me was always like feeling I had a partner who wanted to explore, and wanted to that exploration together. It never meant anal 2X a day. It meant me saying "I'm interested in this" and then us enjoying it, either physically, in fantasy, in our words to one another. It was an open, engaging, interesting, embarrassing, and raw conversation with one another. And little of it had to do with physical acts, most of it was mental, sharing the things that we both have (and I think everyone has) that make our sexuality interesting and unique. The more embarrassing, uncomfortable, scary, un-PC, the better; I wanted the "everyone would die if they knew we were talking about/fantasizing about/doing this" sexuality. The danger/excitement of a ONS or an affair without the awful fallout, just two people who knew each other better than anyone else ever could/would. Sure, I wanted to experience those things physically with her, but what I really wanted was to feel like I had an equal partner, someone to "play with" together, the "best friend" who I could tell the stuff that I'd either never told anyone, or stuff that was only fair game in other groups of guys.

I'll go further into that rat hole if I'm not being clear or that's raising more questions than answers, but, to your question, yes, I know I could be because I've experienced it before with other women. I'd dated or slept with some women who were "everything I wanted" in bed. And I pretty much have it now with my W. I'm not wanting for sexual experience with her, what I'm want now, frankly, is impossible; I want her to not have had to have an affair to become sexually open with me. I wanted to be the AP, trying out the new/forbidden/exciting stuff together. And I wanted her (and still want her), if the A "had to happen" (I know, bull, but it did happen, so working with that) to want to please me, have me please her, and explore our sexuality in an open way together, without any prodding or asking at all anymore. I've stated my only barrier, "Nobody else (guys; being honest, and yes, I realize this stands the chance of raising even more ire, I'd consider another girl if she wanted to do that) in our bedroom", outside of that, I'm game and you have my complete and total consent for anything you want to explore in the bedroom. Want to peg me while I wear a skirt? Well, that's a new one, and not likely to be my favorite thing in the world, but, I'm probably about a size 10, I like blue, and this is gonna perhaps be one of the things we laugh about for the rest of our lives together. And I hope my wife feels like, if that was something she desired, she could come to me with it, and know I'd say "yes, of course" and we could experience it together.

Incarnate posted 10/10/2019 09:15 AM

Power outage was thankfully pretty brief (about 24 hours-ish).

Been trying to catch up and stay current. Have read most everything. I have some response, might be able to put it into words later, once the kids are off to school.

Loukas posted 10/10/2019 11:34 AM

Thanks for the reply, RIO. I was re-reading your first post last page when this part jumped out at me:

I really don't know if I'd be a safe partner for anyone. This experience, in a lot of ways, I feel it ruined all the "indoc" that I got as a young man about the nature of male/female relationships and brought out all the "learning" I did as a slightly older man to figure out "what women want". It would be very hard to set that aside again, I did it for my W, and then she went right out and found "the asshole" that I used to be.
When you met your wife, were you ďthe assholeĒ you used to be?

[This message edited by Loukas at 11:35 AM, October 10th (Thursday)]

Rideitout posted 10/10/2019 11:53 AM

When you met your wife, were you ďthe assholeĒ you used to be?

No, I wasn't. I wanted to try something different, I wanted her to like me without the "asshole cologne". I guess, looking back, you could say "Ready to settle down", but that's not really what I was thinking at the time, it was more me starting to realize that I was hurting people through my behavior. I've now come to realize that I was doing a lot of damage with my behavior, but, at the time I was doing it, I didn't see it that way. "Asshole" was my makeup. It was my fancy suit. It's was a cloak of "sexy" that I put on when I went out, my "miniskirt" and "f-me heels". And, like all those examples, it worked, to varying degrees, a whole lot better than going out in my tshirt and stained jeans (the "real me"). But, at the time, I really did believe that everyone was on the "same page", yes, I'm aware that you're not actually 5'10", I can see the heels. And that your eyelids aren't actually blue, I know that's makeup. But that's OK, because I like the way you look. And, I thought they were saying the same thing "I know you're not really this person you portray yourself to be, but that's OK, because I think this person is hot and I want to sleep with him". Sadly, my W's A showed me differently, she really did think the AP was the person he portrayed himself to be. And that's brought me a lot of shame, because I realize that I did a tremendous amount of lying to women about who I was, what my intentions were, and even my core personality to get laid. My only defense, I really did think that this was common knowledge. Yes, guys lie a lot to get sex, just like women wear a lot of makeup and heels; don't we all know that?! No, we don't, at least a lot of people seem to either not, or, after the fact, pretend they didn't know. How many WW's here have that story, "taken for a ride by the serial AP?". A lot. How could they not know? I have no idea, either a convenient excuse now, or willful blindness at the time, best answers I can come up with.

I really don't know if I'd be a safe partner for anyone.

This is primarily because it's reinforced what was already pretty darn strong in my mind, "assholes finish first". And there's a lot of truth to that statement, my W's AP, unrepentant asshole, no doubt about it. But he "won". Got some truly spectacular NSA from my W with almost no investment of either time or money. Where I spent a ton of both wooing and keeping her happy and got a whole lot less in return.

Loukas posted 10/10/2019 13:31 PM

RIO,
Personally, Iíve never met anyone who was only an asshole when they wanted be. I have a hard time believing a person could simply develop an alter ego and shelf it when it no longer had any use.

Just thinking out loud here, but what are the chances that your wife was the typical woman you looked for in asshole mode? What are the chances that some of the behaviours from asshole mode carried over into the early stages of dating your wife? Iím not talking about the most obvious and deceitful manipulations, but the subtle nuances of actual personality required to make any deceit believable in the first place.

Or am I to believe you simply stopped on a dime, did a 180 and completely changed who you are?

For example, Iím an angry guy. I spent most of my life angry at something, fuck, I was so advanced in the art anger I could be pissed at multiple things in any given moment. I was loud and vocal in my anger, never took shit from anyone kinda guy. But, I was also convinced that I could turn it off, that I could shut my mouth when I had to. Like I switch, I was to be feared if you fucked with me or mine, but otherwise a pretty easy going guy.

The truth for me wasnít that easy. There was no switch. I thought I wore it as a mask when the time was needed. In reality, I was unknowingly deceiving myself. It wasnít a mask I put on when I needed it, it is a part of who I am. A lot of my personality is developed from my anger. My confidence, defiance, strength and will all have footings in my anger and have served me well in my life. Iíve allowed it to fuck me over a lot in life too. As you can imagine, being an angry guy has many social downfalls. The irony here, is everyone else seen the problems with my anger, I just seen the good...

It took a lot of work, a lot of time to fully understand my anger, not just the impacts it had on the life of those around me, but my own as well. The depths of which I wouldnít have imagined even five years ago. But it didnít happen overnight. I couldnít switch it on and off. And it was never a mask, only maybe a blindfold.

All that, to say this. It wasnít just lying that got you laid. Give women more credit than that and while youíre at it, give yourself more credit as well. The lies and deceit may play a role, but under that, is something authentic in your personality, good or bad. Without it, the deceit would quickly fade.

This may not be popular, but it just may be a good exercise in understanding your wifeís attraction to you in the beginning. It might also help to figure out what may be in the future. If you think about it, what did you and her AP have in common? Is there a chance that asshole she fucked relentlessly had similarities with the guy you were in the beginning? You may have changed, but thereís no way it happened overnight. Attraction is a fucked up thing, and it never seems to change all that much, for anyone. Without a careless re-write of history, what if you looked back at the beginning of your relationship and seen the footings set in the same ground as your reckless bar nights?

Iím not saying Iím right here, what do I know, really? Just something to chew on.

LosferWords posted 10/10/2019 13:59 PM

Personally, Iíve never met anyone who was only an asshole when they wanted be. I have a hard time believing a person could simply develop an alter ego and shelf it when it no longer had any use.

My brother is like this, particularly when it comes to dealing with other assholes at his job. Otherwise he is a stand up nice dude. It is definitely not an alter ego, but a badge he wears proudly. Just wanted to throw that out there.

If you think about it, what did you and her AP have in common?

I freaking hate comparisons, but I think this is a good mind exercise, Loukas. I think it should be expanded a bit, though. In my case, my STBX's affair started before I even met her, so I was not in the equation at all. She mentioned at one point that the AP reminded her of her dad in some ways. She admired her dad, but I think her dad caused her the most damage in her life. Tough situation. I guess the point is, the AP in RIO's situation might have something in common with someone else in her life, and possibly has little to do with RIO.

From my own perspective, I've wasted way too much time and energy examining the "why", and finding commonalities, etc. I have better things to do. Just my $0.02 from someone who went down that rabbit hole way too many times.

RIO - I don't always agree with your viewpoints, but again, I don't think you are asking or expecting too much by wanting an open minded partner.

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