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Betrayed Menz Thread-Part 33

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william posted 8/25/2018 01:16 AM

Losfer - I wish you all the best and hope you can come back soon.

mantorok posted 8/25/2018 08:28 AM

You guys are really selling R to me btw. Lol.

william posted 8/28/2018 02:36 AM

The pro d/pro r thread in general sort of fits in there.

thatbpguy posted 8/29/2018 14:42 PM

Any ideas about this?
Day D was over two years ago, we are working on R.

However I find it really difficult to have conversations with my wife about every day things, like chit chat.

Take for example, we went out for dinner, just the two of us, I just have nothing to say! It's like my mind goes blank.

She says the only thing I talk about is her affairs.

I was like that for a long time. It's like her saying, "Hey, I've moved on after my wild time. You need to also.". But that's crap. It's hard to have chit chat as it implies all is over, forgiven and perfectly well. But it's not. The knife thru our backs into our heart festers for a long, long time. WW's need to understand that. If she cannot accept that, then I think there is no genuine remorse or desire to build a marriage back up.

[This message edited by thatbpguy at 2:43 PM, August 29th (Wednesday)]

numb&dumb posted 8/29/2018 14:57 PM

Any ideas about this?
Day D was over two years ago, we are working on R.
However I find it really difficult to have conversations with my wife about every day things, like chit chat.

Take for example, we went out for dinner, just the two of us, I just have nothing to say! It's like my mind goes blank.

She says the only thing I talk about is her affairs.

Based on your profile it seems like the last 3 years or so have been dominated by that aspect. I understand.

I can relate to that. It defines your relationship for so long it is hard to find anything else to talk about.

I can be fake. I can pretend to engage someone in conversation. People love to talk about themselves just ask them questions, etc.

When I talk to co-workers, clients or random people in the grocery store I put forth my "fake, nice guy persona." I do the same thing at my job.

It is worth a shot at trying that. At times we've had to talk to people we can't stand and this is no different.

A long time ago the "fake it til you make it," advice was popular here. While I don't agree that being fake is a good move long term it can help make the present bearable at times.

Losfer- Peace brother. You know where we will be. Monkey Shoulder neat? On the rocks? I got a really cool Millenium Falcon ice mold. It makes one giant ice cube just the right size in the shape of the millennium falcon.

numb&dumb posted 8/29/2018 14:58 PM

You guys are really selling R to me btw. Lol.

R has it's place and it can be great. Menz is good place to vent about things . . .so we might across as less than happy, but when we are we need less menz support so . . .

Zigin posted 9/1/2018 16:09 PM

Question for those that made the decision to move ahead with a divorce:

How do you get over the anger at being forced to pay alimony to a WW? This is a real hangup for me and I know I'll need to be realistic when it comes time for the D, but the amount of headspace this occupies is way too high right now. Part of that is the total uncertainty of what I'll be asked to pay to someone who dropped her career for the thrill of the affair.

STBXH posted 9/2/2018 22:23 PM


For divorce lawyers....

STBXH posted 9/2/2018 22:28 PM

Zigin, I totally get it. The injustice is oppressive. She gets to go fuck around and gets half your pension and salary forevermore. I would say most men (if they are in a ďno-faultĒ state and are the breadwinners) decide itís just cheaper to keep her. GENERALLY speaking, men may have a measurably more difficult time with infidelity when it happens to them. Not saying women donít. God knows how painful this is for the wonderful women of SI. This is just a generalization that happens to apply to you and me.

william posted 9/3/2018 11:07 AM

This is something that really should be changed in the law. Cheat and forfeit your claims to more than a small % of marital assets.

sisoon posted 9/3/2018 12:22 PM

IDK about alimony/maintenance. My son was a SAHD with his W's concurrence. He did all sorts of things that needed to be done during his STBXW's working hours, so he enabled her to do work that she otherwise couldn't have done.

That's worth something, isn't it?

I understand being angry about it, though.

[This message edited by sisoon at 12:22 PM, September 3rd (Monday)]

Zigin posted 9/3/2018 15:13 PM

Thanks for the responses. This isn't a SAHM situation - despite her not working I was/am the primary caregiver. The 50/50 asset split I can deal with mentally, but the thought of paying out 25% of my salary for 12 years (what the calculator says I'll need to do) just drives me up a frigging wall.

william posted 9/3/2018 16:24 PM

@ sisoon - yes, it is worth something.
When a marriage partner sacrifices for the good of the family unit it can be very noble.

I remember in the marines we learned loyalty. God, country, corps. and don't get me wrong that's important stuff. But the real loyalty, the deeper sort, was to the guys in the platoon. And an even deeper to the squad, and then the fireteam was the ultimate.

I remember telling my wife that I'd seen our family as my new unit. My fireteam, in a way. We looked out for each other. Had each others backs. Went into harms way for each other. Side by side in the fighting hole, together, against all enemies. Then it was like one night she told me all was OK, waited til my back was turned, and pulled out he pistol and shot me in the back. Utter betrayal. Total treachery.

At that moment all her good deeds amount to less than a bucket of cold spit.

It was noble your son made sacrifices for the family but those sacrifices are really overshadowed by the abgect betrayal he engaged in.

We shouldnt enter lightly into marriage, its a solemn vow. Its not a temporary commitment. But its also not slavery. There is an escape clause called divorce. No one should divorce because its a Monday BUT we can. Maybe some D is for less than solid grounds (imo)or due to immaturity (either at time of m or later, etc) but its still an option.

Divorce and get your alimony or share of the assets. For any reason or no reason. But cheat - again IMO - and you should forfeit all rights to marital assets that werent yours when you got married. Obviously cs is a different monkey.

I bet that would go a long way towards reducing infidelity in society.

Funny how they say that one can't legislate morality and yet the entire criminal justice system is nothing but an attempt to do exactly that.

RockstarDad posted 9/3/2018 16:29 PM

I have two countdown clocks on my phone. One is the day my youngest graduates high school and child support stops (this will be the last day I ever communicate with my ex Im fucking serious about that, never a word again I dont care what the situation is). The other is the day I retire. When I look at the child support countdown I think of how much I have left to teach my children before they are grown. When I look at the retirement calculator I think of all the things I have left to accomplish professionally. Both push me to get shit done and the reward at the end.

hatefulnow posted 9/3/2018 19:41 PM

Guys,

This has probably been discussed on this forum, but I can't look for all the threads that I'm sure exist.

Background: My XWW cheated on me with an old crush for most of our relationship including courtship. She did things with him that he refused to do with me, or when she did some things it was begrudgingly or a chore. I found out the extent when I saw a video OM made secretly.

XWW was shocked, I was disgusted and insanely livid. I took steps to dismantle OM's life and did a thorough job of it.

XWW and I divorced. My decision. But for the sake of the kids we remained civil. She totally threw herself on her sword in court. I got the house, kids and most of the assets. She lives close and sees the kids often.

Her actions since discovery and especially in the divorce demonstrated commitment and remorse to me, to a point. Now, even though we are divorced, we date, exclusively. Things I had wanted, but were denied, are denied no longer. There were even things she did with OM that I hadn't asked for because I was too chicken-shit. She'll do them too if I want.

All seems good, right?

Well, here's the problem. I could ask her for anything and feel I could get it, but when she gives I sense reservation. I saw no reservation on her video. I saw enthusiasm and excitement. I saw passion. Do we have passion? Sure, but it seems affected, not genuine.

I talk to my IC, I talk to her. I've been given reassurances but I still feel a nagging that I'm being placated or manipulated. I want her to feel the same passion for me that OM got. That she can't be with anyone else. That only I will do. I think she wants that too, but just can't fully manifest it. She tries hard, but it's like I just don't do it for her, really.

Sorry for the length of the post. I feel kind of silly. Tell me guys, have any of you felt this way and how did you deal? I just feel so...short-changed.

Ascendant posted 9/3/2018 22:39 PM

Not to change topics or anything and sorry for the Tred jack, but our daughter had our second grand baby today. He was a week early, but healthy and all that shit. Kind of a segue here, but today is also exactly a month since we put our lab down. So Los, guess we ran out of time to have a beer with Tallis and Koda.
Congrats, mate!

Butforthegrace posted 9/4/2018 07:22 AM

Hateful, what you are describing is one of the "alchemy" aspects of the R/D question. Many BH's feel like a sexual "Plan B" for their WW. It can feel emasculating and humiliating. For some men, the ability to R successfully includes somehow getting past this feeling. For somebody like you, having seen the actual movie, this can be difficult.

Have you asked her to write out a detailed timeline of the A, including all of the "dirty details" of each encounter. Since you've already seen a video of them having sex, this isn't likely to add significantly to your already profound trauma. As you go through this with her, you can ask her outright how much she enjoyed these sex acts with him, and what she enjoyed about them, etc.

As to whether she enjoys them with you, this is one of those ephemeral matters of the heart. The heart knows what it knows. She either enjoys you sexually, or not. Have you asked her about this? Have you told her that you feel she is simply doing these things to appease you, but that she doesn't have any real desire for them with you? What does she say?

Does she initiate these things with you, or do you have to ask first? I think you should ask her outright: Why did you deny these things to me before, but are doing them now? And I think you should tell her that to you it feels faked.

I would point out that she is dating you exclusively, and, based on your posts, it sounds like she is making an effort to be sexual with you. You guys are divorced. She has no reason to do this other than she wants a relationship with you, which is why WW's do these things with their AP's. So there is that.

It is possible that what you perceive as her lower level of sexuality or sexual enthusiasm with you is your own internal insecurity, that feeling of being "Plan B". Or, at least, it is possible that feeling is shaping your perception.

I suggest that if you want to move toward R, you talk to her about these feelings. R only works with 100% emotional transparency on both sides.

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 8:18 AM, September 4th (Tuesday)]

Butforthegrace posted 9/4/2018 08:25 AM

Zigin: Spousal support calculations vary from state to state, but usually they are a matter of a formula. You ought to consult a lawyer to find out what your obligation might be. If she had a career, but dropped it, that is critical because many states look at earning potential moreso than actual earnings. The reason for this rule is that there have been thousands of instances of spouses quitting jobs in an attempt to show "no income" for spousal support purposes. Most laws won't let somebody get away with that.

STBX: Staying with a spouse you loathe merely to avoid paying spousal support is a recipe for misery. There was a long thread on General a while ago about the concept of denying spousal support for spouses who "cheat" or "betray". The difficulty with this concept is that there is a wide spectrum of "cheating" or "betrayal." A spouse who simply falls out of love and quits trying, puts on a ton of weight, denies sex, refuses to help around the house, just lays around all day eating and farting and stinking. That can be as much hell for the hard-working spouse, or almost as much, as the one who fucks another man. Or the spouse who pisses away all of the family money gambling. Or who gets black-out drunk regularly and kills somebody in a drunk driving accident, saddling the family with a humongous personal injury judgment. Etc. There are countless ways to betray your spouse.

For the most part, no-fault laws don't care about these things. They are based on the idea that it is up to each individual in the marriage to vet his or her spouse, and to monitor the health of the marriage in real time. After all, who is better situated to do so? And if a spouse fails to do this and marries a person who cheats, or doesn't get out of a shitty marriage before infidelity occurs, that is the choice of that person. It's not a function for the courts to decide that one spouse has been more "marriage appropriate" than the other.

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 9:56 AM, September 4th (Tuesday)]

hatefulnow posted 9/4/2018 10:02 AM

Butforthegrace,

Thank you for your insightful response. I had broached this subject in the 'questions for w/s' section. Although there were people kind and sympathetic enough to answer, I didn't feel I was getting what I needed, so I came here.

Anyway, I have expressed that, while I like the amount, variety and apparent enthusiasm she displays, I feel it's being manufactured for my benefit. It's like she's auditioning.

I have asked her why she's able to do such and such with me now, when before she wouldn't. Why she would do it with OM, but not me. Her answer is that she was playing the roles we seemed to want her to play. For me, she was the good girl, dutiful wife, etc because that's what I wanted. For OM she was the bad girl, drunken prom date, etc because that's what he wanted.

I can buy that on some level because she is a chronic people pleaser. The good side is she's always willing to help others and is usually very patient, but the dark side of this is that sometimes people take advantage and also when things go sideways, she'll take it personally, like SHE failed somehow. We're working on that together. I have to share some blame in this disaster because at times I'm not very expressive with her. Or at least I was. We're working on that too. Not sure either of us is ready for RADICAL honesty, but we are working on it. Still hurts like hell, though.

As far as initiating, this is a sticking point with me also. If I wanted her to shoot nails into her feet with a nail gun, she'd probably do it. No problem or complaints, but she rarely initiates and, even though it's really good, I still get the feeling that it's affected.

Again, if I ask for something it's no problem. I don't think I have really weird, out there, bat-shit crazy desires. But to test her I did ask her for some stuff that I guess could be considered 'on the edge, by some. Stuff I knew in the past she would have strenuously objected to. She didn't. She just put on her 'game face' and powered through. Mind you, I never forced her to do anything or threatened her in any way, but it was a 'shit-test'.

Hey, they do it to us all the time, right?

I feel there are things she doesn't like, even though she says otherwise. So I usually don't ask for them...usually. To push the 'mind movies' and real movies from my mind, sometimes I have needed it, especially early on, and not really caring how she felt about it. Not so much now, but sometimes. And now I DO care.

You made a good point my IC made in that we are divorced, she's still very attractive for her age, (early 50's), and there are guys that try to talk to her from time to time. She has no need to stay with me. It's weird because she dresses like a 1950's schoolmarm: long skirts, button-up blouses with ruffles, horn-rimmed glasses with the chain on them to hold them up, everything loose-fitting. Very, very conservative in dress and behavior...publically. She is the LAST person, looking at her, you'd think of being in this pickle. But, she has a body. Voluptuous, especially since she's been working so hard at, in her words, 'being the wife I've always deserved'. Even after 4 kids...WOW! Everyone says I'm lucky and I agree, which is why I hate this nagging feeling of being 'Plan B'.

Maybe she wants her 'good girl' credentials back? Maybe she's doing it for the kids? I was super hard on her early on and, when my kids wanted to know why I was being such a colossal prick, to her AND them, I told them. They didn't believe at first, but she did confirm it (I was holding the thumb drive with her 'escapades' and I was bonkers enough to show them. She knew it.) The kids were disgusted by the what and the who. They all though OM was a narcissistic creep and my oldest girl thought he was a pig...before any of this became known.

I've asked her to journal and let me see it so I know what she's feeling. She is a private person so she asked for some time. (in the past she would have said NO WAY!) We have arraigned marriage counseling again to help facilitate communication. We both have a tendency to go off the rails.

I'll keep you posted and thank you. If you have any tools or ideas how I can get past this feeling, please share.

Butforthegrace posted 9/4/2018 10:53 AM

Hateful: The limitation if the "BS Questions for WS" forum is that other BS's can't respond there and offer their input. Similar limitation here. Lots of posters don't look in Betrayed Menz because threads often devolve into chatter about video games and such.

You'd probably have better luck with feedback posting your story in General or JFO. Just be ready for a shit-storm of "divorce the cheating bitch" replies.

One suggestion I might offer: ask her to come up with a fantasy sex scenario, something she'd like to try with you. Public place, perhaps, or a quickie in her office. Department store changing room. Or at home, but some BDSM or role play. Something neither of you have done, but would like to try. The point is that she is the one coming up with it, and it needs to be her fantasy, something she wants with you specifically.

And, as an intermediate step, ask her to initiate sex. Some time between now and Sunday. At her prerogative. And by "initiate" you mean physically initiate, as in be the aggressor. You say she'll do stuff if you ask, so ask in a way that causes her to use her imagination and be creative. The "sexy librarian" scenario could be pretty cool.

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 11:06 AM, September 4th (Tuesday)]

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