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Betrayed Menz Thread-Part 33

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WornDown posted 10/3/2018 12:42 PM

So, in the interest of some hypothetical outcome, you don't think there needs to be any evidence whatsoever?

That an allegation is enough, because...well...#2 might happen.

And, again, your stipulation - no harm, no foul - is ridiculous on it's face. The mere stain of a sexual assault charge will be with him forever. Ask the Duke Lacrosse boys.

But, in your zeal to demonstrate your solidarity with the women-folk, you're willing to sacrifice a few, eh?

I mean, what's the big deal if a guy has to stay in a hotel for a few weeks, can't see his kids, it get published in the local paper, if the child sex abuse charge filed by his STBX ends up being false? No harm, no foul, right?

Give me a break.

Sorry, but that's not a world I want to live in.

Oh, BTW - ask Emmett Till how an assault accusation worked out for him.

Rideitout posted 10/3/2018 13:57 PM

Men and women both can lie. I guess we in the menz forum are a little more sensitive to that because we have all been lied to by a woman whom we thought we could trust. It is hard not to be skeptical. Too many messed up people in the world.

Your right, of course, but there is a stark difference, men are held to a different standard when it comes to sexual abuse, we simply are. And perhaps we should be, as we're typically the perps, but, if I woke up tomorrow and called the cops and told them "my wife raped me last night" they'd laugh at me. Perhaps they'd arrest her because they have to, but getting those charges to stick, even if they were true, would be near impossible. And it would be a stain on me, no matter what, if I tried to do this.

Listen, by the current standards, I've been raped. No question about it, I was too drunk to consent many times in college and the years following. In fact, I'm sure that my current wife has raped me, when we first got together, I was drinking too much, and I'm sure we had sex when she was sober and I was too drunk to consent. If that's what we're talking about here, well then, count me in as a victim. But come on, can nobody see the difference between "morning after regret" (or, what we used to call, "chew your arm off" to get away from someone you woke up next to that you REALLY did not want to be with) and what used to be "rape"? I mean, if our goal is to make everyone in to victim and perp, well, then, success, I'm pretty sure that most of us, if we search our memories, have slept with someone under the influence or been under the influence ourselves and slept with someone we rather wouldn't have.

Now, of course, the justice case right now is different, and in this case, I'm really not sure what I feel. I think that most politicians are dirty as hell, so, is he really worst than most (or the other justices) or is he just being raked over the coals? I really don't know, and, if someone asked me for my vote, I'm not sure what I'd say, yes or no. But, this culture of victimhood bothers me, it takes away from those who were "really raped", IMHO, a crime that is absolutely awful but also rare. I've met tons of women who had a "rape story" in my life. Not one of them sounded like anything to me more than "I really wish I hadn't slept with him" or "he lied to me about everything, and now I feel used".

I guess that makes me a relic of the past and probably a misogynist for having these viewpoints. If I had a daughter, perhaps I would feel different. What I do know is that the way I would teach her to view men is far more predatory than most women are taught today. No, they don't want to "be your friend". No, don't get blackout drunk at all, and, if you do, make sure it's only girls there. Don't hang out in bars and nightclubs unless you want to wind up in a guys bed where you don't remember his name the next morning. I'd teach her that if a man is talking to you, it probably means he wants to sleep with you, which is kind of what my parents told me many years ago. They never tried to instill "men and women can be friends", they told us that the two sexes were to be kept apart except for pairing/coupling.

Antiquated, no doubt. More reflective of reality? That's for you to decide, but, IMHO, yes, it is.

Unhinged posted 10/3/2018 15:07 PM

And, again, your stipulation - no harm, no foul - is ridiculous on it's face. The mere stain of a sexual assault charge will be with him forever.
WornDown, you're right. It was a poor choice of words. The stain of the accusation will always be with him, while he sits on the Supreme Court.
But, in your zeal to demonstrate your solidarity with the women-folk, you're willing to sacrifice a few, eh?
How about solidarity with human beings? And no, I'm not willing to sacrifice anyone, including women (aka humans). This isn't a battle of the sexes, brother. It's got nothing to do with men vs women. It's about recognizing a problem within our society that has to be addressed (as opposed to impugning the motivations of those with whom you might disagree).

SisterMilkshake was trying to tell us something. So were all of the other women who posted in that thread. You don't have to listen. You don't have to contemplate the implications. It's your choice, man.

I have a young son (grade school). I'm not too worried about him sexually assaulting women one day. I'm not too worried about some girl or woman falsely accusing him. I'll teach him what he needs to know (theoretically).

So, in the interest of some hypothetical outcome, you don't think there needs to be any evidence whatsoever?
Evidence would be great, either way! In a perfect world, that would happen. It's not a perfect world. It's not even close. And the question remains.

[This message edited by Unhinged at 3:14 PM, October 3rd (Wednesday)]

WornDown posted 10/3/2018 15:25 PM

The stain of the accusation will always be with him, while he sits on the Supreme Court.

So in your world any accusation is good enough?

[edit: no politics] Any accusation will do, I guess.

SisterMilkshake was trying to tell us something. So were all of the other women who posted in that thread. You don't have to listen. You don't have to contemplate the implications. It's your choice, man.

Oh, I know all about it. But I also know you don't go shoot every guy who gets accused of something. But maybe that's what you want.

I have a young son (grade school). I'm not too worried about him sexually assaulting women one day. I'm not too worried about some girl or woman falsely accusing him. I'll teach him what he needs to know (theoretically).

You're a fool to think that. Heck, the girl doesn't even have to make an accusation - someone else can, and he's guilty. Don't believe me? Look up the reporting Emille Joffe did for the Atlantic.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 8:37 AM, October 5th (Friday)]

Rideitout posted 10/3/2018 16:00 PM

I have a young son (grade school). I'm not too worried about him sexually assaulting women one day. I'm not too worried about some girl or woman falsely accusing him. I'll teach him what he needs to know (theoretically).

What will that be? Because, I'm curious, I have no idea what I'd tell a close family member today. Stay away is probably the best advice I could give them, but... We all know how well that works for young men.

Listen, here's the thing, if the stats #MeToo are using are even close to right, there's not a rape crisis, there's a rape apocalypse. I've seen numbers hovering between 30-60% of women report a lifetime sexual assault/rape (from #MeToo). What that means, by proxy, is one of two things. The one we all want to believe, there's a few bad apples out there raping dozens/hundreds of women. Or, the alternate theory, somewhere between "a lot" and "most" men have sexually assaulted/raped a woman in the past.

Now, here's the thing; the thought exercise. I suspect that none of us here have been to prison for rape/sexual assault. But, think back through your younger days. Anything questionable? Did you go to college? If so, and if you were a drinker, I'm going to say "almost certainly" there something "questionable" in your past. I'll raise my hand, I was the life of the party in college, if there was beer, I was there. And I slept around quite a bit, including the old "what happened last night" experience more times than I care to recount. At the time, that was just "college". You went out, you got drunk, you hooked up. If you'd asked me upon graduation "Hey RIO, you rape anyone while you were here" I would have punched you in the mouth. I love women, and had tons of fun with them, forcing them to sleep with me was so repulsive that it makes my skin crawl.

But today, looking back? I'm not so sure. Were any of those women too drunk to consent? My thought is, almost certainly yes, some where. And am I a victim too? That one I can answer for sure, yes, I am, I was beyond drunk a lot of time in college and woke up with no recollection of how/where and who this person was next to me. No doubt, by the current standards, I know quite a few female rapists.

So, what do you tell your sons today? Obviously, don't do what I did! That much is clear. But what about going out to a bar and looking for single women? Is that out now too? Honestly, not drinking is a good way to avoid it, but what if she does? So don't date drinkers/drug users at all? Again, not an unreasonable standard, but I assume very difficult for a young man today to abide by.

I'm not sure what I'd tell them, but I can tell you, if my son was accused, and the situation looked anything like your typical #MeToo story, I'd defend him to the end of the earth. Because it's not like I didn't do those exact same things.

I do know that some people are taking it what I consider too far; installing cameras in their house and carrying a VAR to make sure they aren't hit up with a case like this. I guess that's an answer, but man, does that feel like an awful solution. I'll tell you, I'm glad I'm married today and not out on the single/Tinder scene, I'd be terrified of a claim if I was doing the things I did when I was younger, the "love em and leave em" in any quantity at all. Eventually your luck will run out, and if she's mad enough, your life will never be the same again, even if you don't wind up in prison.

I don't know. It's a terrible discourse on society and humans, that's for sure. And it feels like radical answers are needed, especially if we're talking "most" women are assaulted at some point in their lives. That's not a "culture" problem, that's a "human being" problem. Something is intrinsically wrong.

Notthevictem posted 10/3/2018 16:10 PM

But, think back through your younger days. Anything questionable?

Define questionable.

Edit: I mean, your standard of questionable and mine are probably very different things.

[This message edited by Notthevictem at 4:13 PM, October 3rd (Wednesday)]

Loukas posted 10/3/2018 18:24 PM

5 pages discussing this and still you guys havenít solved the worldís problems? Shit, the Menz Thread is slipping...

Walloped posted 10/3/2018 18:53 PM

How about solidarity with human beings?

I apologize upfront for singling out this line, but it really irks me. Because the presumption is that if I disagree or have a different opinion than I am not in solidarity with anyone whoís dealt with this. My wife already mentioned her assault run-ins. All 3 of my daughters have been assaulted. One, an attempted rape, one physically assaulted and beaten by two half-drunk ďfriends,Ē and one a very near miss by someone in an authority position. Iíve lived this shit. Sleepless nights, therapy sessions, nightmares, mood swings, depression, withdrawal, and watching my girls fight through it all.

Hereís the thing - I canít take my anger at what happened to them and use it to bash everyone else over the head.

I donít know if Kavanaugh did it or not. But it seems everyone else is so goddamn certain one way or the other and donít you dare question anything, cause if you do youíre not in solidarity with humans or some such nonsense. All four women in my life cried and triggered like anything watching Dr. Ford. They felt for her and believed that she went through something horrible. But amazingly, they were also able to ask questions. Despite their own personal trauma they werenít willing to just deem someone guilty without anything to back up the accusation. As much as they felt for her, they also felt for him and hoped to know more before condemning him.

I was proud of them for being so fair minded despite what would be an understandable bias on their part.

But I guess my daughters, victims of assault themselves, apparently arenít in solidarity with victims of assault or with human beings in general because they havenít jumped on a bandwagon.

I need a drink.

stolenyears posted 10/3/2018 19:09 PM

I was hoping for some recommendation of a new bourbon that I haven't tried, or some good fart jokes. Shit.

Walloped posted 10/3/2018 19:42 PM

I was hoping for some recommendation of a new bourbon that I haven't tried

Evan Williams Single Barrel 2010 - fantastic QPR (quality to price ratio)

WornDown posted 10/3/2018 20:17 PM

I was hoping for some recommendation of a new bourbon that I haven't tried

Bowman Brothers Small Batch.

~$28-30/bottle, but tastes like/nearly as smooth as Jefferson Reserve (at ~$50/bottle)

Unhinged posted 10/3/2018 20:46 PM

So in your world any accusation is good enough?
No, but in the case of Judge K, it's enough to give me pause.

I've never considered myself a band wagon sort of guy. The only exception would be rollerblades. When those things first came out, I jumped on that band wagon, bought the most expensive pair I could find, then bought new wheels, faster bearings, the works. Loved 'em!

Walloped, I'm curious. Did any of the women in your life report what happened and was any sort of justice meted out?

It seems that I've offended a few of you. That was never my intention. I'd imagine that current events triggered SMS to write what she did. The same might be true for the rest of the women who replied.

I haven't offered up any solutions because I've never given the topic serious consideration. I've never been accused of sexual assault nor do I remember ever sexually assaulting someone. I've never had a family member or close friend been accused of it, either (except my mother, who hated my father, and asked me if I thought he'd ever abused my sister).

I've never given much consideration to the policies of colleges and universities, corporations or congress.

So this situation we have with a SCOTUS nominee and the SI thread that it clearly triggered are relatively new topics for me. Since I don't know a better place to talk about stuff like this, I brought it up here.

If I was a US Senator would the allegations be enough to change my vote? Maybe... if I didn't have to worry about another election.


ETA: I'll add this by way of experience in the hopes that it helps anyone to understand where I'm coming from. My father's family is Jewish (mom's was Protestant Christian). All of my life I've heard Jewish jokes (generally insulting) from all sorts of people. Do I know for a fact that a few, some or all of those people were anti-Semitic? No. I can't prove it. I do know for a fact that anti-Semitism exists and I don't take any of it lightly, ever, at all.

[This message edited by Unhinged at 9:37 PM, October 3rd (Wednesday)]

stolenyears posted 10/3/2018 22:02 PM

Thanks for the bourbon references...I usually walk out of the store with a bottle of Angel's Envy and one other, so I will add these to the rotation. Had a Colonel Taylor Small Batch over the weekend both neat and in an Old Fashioned, and it was really tasty.

Now back to the regularly scheduled programming...we're all different and see things through our filtered lens. My lens is always a skeptic and very cynical. Like everything here, you take what you need and leave the rest. I did find it interesting how there was a feeding frenzy on Mrswalloped when she offered a different view on the other thread, and that is what bothers me about all of it. There is no room for a different view. The current GroupThink likes to shut down anything that doesn't think like the group. My view may not be right. My view may not be popular. My view may be only held by me. I have zero fucks to give...it's MY view. GroupThink only produces monologues rather than dialogues. A dialogue would be good to have, but for now, bourbon it is.

Walloped posted 10/4/2018 00:14 AM

Unhinged,

I'm curious. Did any of the women in your life report what happened and was any sort of justice meted out?

Without going into too much detail, a combo of yes and no. My daughter who was beaten, the police were involved so it had to be. It was a mess. The boys were juvies and ended up getting off with mandatory counseling and community service. The attempted rape was reported but nothing came of it. It was an attack in a parking lot and my daughter could not identify her assailant. My other daughter did not officially report her assault. It was at college with a figure of authority who tried to pressure her into having sex with him. Some aggressive advances and fumbling at her clothes - she slapped him, he apologized and my daughter didnít want it out there and to be known as ďthat girlĒ so she steered clear of him and thatís all.

No justice. IMO, short of castration there isnít any regardless.

I think stolenyears said it well. My wife and girls were also triggered by current events. But they have a different opinion on how to view it all, and having a different opinion is apparently not tolerated, despite the fact that they are all victims themselves. The mind boggles at the absurdity of it.

ramius posted 10/4/2018 02:49 AM

The current GroupThink likes to shut down anything that doesn't think like the group. My view may not be right. My view may not be popular. My view may be only held by me. I have zero fucks to give...it's MY view. GroupThink only produces monologues rather than dialogues.

Yep. This is the end point of identity politics. If you have a different opinion, itís not just that you are wrong, you are a problem.

I appreciate MrsWal having the guts to exhibit nuanced thinking. Especially given her and her daughters trauma.

One upside of this debate, for me personally, is now I know a bit more about how some posters think and view reality.

latebloomer45 posted 10/4/2018 04:14 AM

Betrayed Men only

[This message edited by SI Staff at 9:51 AM, October 4th (Thursday)]

WornDown posted 10/4/2018 07:51 AM

Eeeek!

Womenz in the club house!

[This message edited by WornDown at 10:26 AM, October 4th (Thursday)]

WornDown posted 10/4/2018 07:57 AM

something that isn't supposed to be discussed on this forum anyway

BTW -

You just confirmed what stolenyears said:

when she offered a different view on the other thread, and that is what bothers me about all of it. There is no room for a different view. The current GroupThink likes to shut down anything that doesn't think like the group.

Thanks for stopping by and telling us to STFU. Have a great day!

Walloped posted 10/4/2018 08:39 AM

latebloomer45,

as we were discussing OUR trauma, in a support group type situation, not taking sides on something that isn't supposed to be discussed on this forum anyway.

What complete and utter bullshit!

YOU brought him up and called him a POS and expressed concern about him being confirmed. YOU went from focusing on women telling their own stories to focusing on the politics of the situation.

My wife said, hey, thatís not fair to presume guilt and name call, and expressed how much she felt for Dr. Ford and how much she cried and prayed for her. And because she dared express concern for all people involved and wasnít willing to condemn someone, she was vilified for it. And this was not me, a man, posting but my wife, a woman, a victim herself and the mother of 3 girls who were all victims.

If youíre so concerned about your thread being hijacked, then maybe you should have kept your personal politics out of it and focused on the women coming forward and not on whether heíll be confirmed or not. Look in the mirror if you want to blame someone.

Candyman66 posted 10/4/2018 11:27 AM

OK I guess that with certain posters that he has committed PERJURY during testimony about his drinking habits during his high school and collage years!! Yes that is what I said PERJURY!! That is what lying during sworn testimony is!!!

It seems that if I remember right that it was these same people screaming about supposedly perjured testimony was when it involved those others but it is ok this time???

It is perjury because there is a letter to "the first to arrive" written by kavanaugh HIMSELF! that goes on to describe the type of behavior to warn the new neighbors about! But this is only PERJURY by whom they want on the bench for his "views and expected votes on particular cases" that will detrimentally affect ALL women in this country.

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