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Betrayed Menz Thread-Part 33

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wincing_at_light posted 9/27/2018 11:59 AM

When I was in school, it was weird if we even had *girls* at our parties. And when they did come, we had no fucking idea what to do.

wincing_at_light posted 9/27/2018 12:53 PM

Also, RideItOut, I agree with your assessment of the vast majority of the BH approaches to "demand" sex acts. I'm just trying to point out the audience problem -- what people hear and consequently respond to, rather than what is actually being said...which is why I think those discussions are better placed in protective threads like this one, because other men tend to hear and understand with more nuance, in this particular regard.

Look, I get the argument that WWs tend to feel ashamed and degraded coming out of affairs and when they want to reconcile (also a choice for them) that they want to rebuild that intimacy in a trusting environment. I get it. That's how we all want to feel when we're having sex.

But, you know what? Sex wasn't safe for me for a long time after D-Day. If I'm completely honest, it's still not 100% safe for me *now*. I still have mind movies during sex sometimes. Not the debilitating ones from the early years, but those stray thoughts pop in. They'll probably be there for the rest of my life. And God forbid I don't bring my A game -- get a little too excited, cum a little too early, not be 100% in the mood. That triggers a whole set of insecurities about whether she'll start looking around for something else. My rational mind knows that's stupid and my wife (likely) wouldn't do that...but the animal bits of my brain aren't always rational, and they get a vote in what I think, too. (Digression: On the second or third night after D-Day, my wife took a sleeping pill and we ended up having sex. Right in the middle of it, she said, "I love you, AP". She knew immediately what she'd said, and so did I. Again, my rational brain connects the sleeping pill and her confusion. My emotional brain has never unheard it. Not ever.)

My wife accepted any sex we'd have after D-Day. And we had a ton of angry sex. My mentality was that I would be goddamned if I was going to deny myself sex when I wanted to get off just because I happened to hate her guts. I think we both understood on some level that when everything else was going wrong, sex was the only glue that was keeping us together. Call it better marriage through brain chemistry. Whatever. Sex would calm the rage waters for a couple of days. Looking at the world through cum-colored glasses, I guess.

Whatever, right? It worked for us.

So, no, I don't buy the position that any sort of demand with the implied threat of divorce is abuse or something. My first wife was pretty frigid. She had a history of childhood sexual abuse. It tormented me as a young man, but I thought I'd manage it...right up until we were laying in bed one night, and I'm kissing her neck, touching her, and doing the usual sorts of things to express a desire in having sex with her, and she said to me "When you keep trying to get someone in the mood and they clearly don't want it, it's the same thing as rape."

The marriage didn't last six months after that.

Now, as a fully grown adult with more experience in dealing with the adult repercussions of childhood sexual abuse, I understand how she was feeling now. I get that she had unresolved issues surrounding sex and responded by feeling threatened. Twenty year old me didn't know that. Twenty year old me knew that I was *not* going to deal with that shit for the rest of my life. One of the basic stipulations of being married to me as a twenty year old kid was that I was now allowed to have the religiously sanctioned sex that I'd been denied all of my life up to that point. You could even call that a hard boundary for being married to me. And like all boundaries, that doesn't mean that I get to tell you what to do. It means that I get to choose what I allow into my life.

(I was also a cSAB kid...but it never really bothered me. It was something some creep had done to me, not anything I ever interpreted about being about me or a reflection on me. This is likely due the fact that when I told my parents at 5 years old what had gone on, they immediately dealt with it. Got the guy arrested. I grew up knowing that my parents would keep me safe from creeps if I told them the truth.)

So, in other words, enthusiastic sex is a boundary issue for me. We're going to have sex and we're both going to like it, goddammit. Otherwise I'm going to terminate this relationship and find someone who does. This is much easier for me to say now that all of my bio kids are fully grown and on their own. It was a different sort of calculus when they were young and in the home. I understand that, too. I sympathize with guys who have frigid wives or wives who are situationally frigid (butt sex or whatever), because there's some truth to the argument that the least invested sexual partner controls the sexuality and expression of the marriage. Those limits are negotiated in every marriage, and not always to the satisfaction of both parties, so I recognize that's a real thing...but it's also what I would call a normal "marriage thing" that everyone has to deal with and if you can't negotiate it, then it's in your best interest to get the fuck out or find other compensations to make up for the lack. I don't think that threat of getting the fuck out because your partner is unsatisfactory is abusive. It just is. My wife isn't entitled to my constant company/support/income any more than I'm entitled to butt sex just because we once signed a piece of paper pledging to do our absolute best to meet one another's needs until death-do-us-part.

That's the thing about infidelity. It's a one-sided renegotiation of the formerly agreed upon marital rules. Reconciliation is like declaring bankruptcy. You have to reach out to all of your creditors and pick what debts you're going to affirm and which you're going to give over. If you've ever been through bankruptcy, it's a painful process of cost/benefit analysis. In this case, sexual exclusivity (and/or the sexual rules of engagement) have already been bargained away, and a great many WWs seem to want to believe that they can re-affirm that obligation and take all of the other commitments off the table (It's a brand new marriage with all of the old rules back in place!) Which is bullshit. You don't reconcile with the same BH you cheated on. He's a different guy, a different debtor. All of those things that were once settled law get to be hauled out and re-examined to see if they're worth affirming again. (And honestly, any BS who doesn't realize they're approaching that re-negotiation from a position of power and seize it is a fucking idiot. Don't know about you, but one of the biggest light bulb moments for me was getting to hear the litany of real and imagined resentments my wife used to fuel her affairs and realizing that I had a list just as long that I'd never bothered to drag out to justify bad behavior because I was under the delusion that love covers a litany of sins. Fuck that. If you get to weaponize your resentments, then so do I. That's a new marriage rule.)

Anyway, I'm just rambling now. When you're an old guy, you have trouble separating this shit into discrete chunks, because it's all interconnected. Just don't get me started on the whole trope about women being the experts on healthy dynamics in your relationships while the guys are the coarse, un-nuanced rubes who are best led about by their swinging dicks, lest they make bad decisions.

wincing_at_light posted 9/27/2018 12:53 PM

Jesus.

That WAL guy and his fucking walls of text.

steadychevy posted 9/27/2018 13:50 PM

perhaps a wall of texts but valued standing there at the wall reading it all. Good post(s).

Notthevictem posted 9/27/2018 16:05 PM

Filibuster?

stolenyears posted 9/27/2018 18:51 PM

Just don't get me started on the whole trope about women being the experts on healthy dynamics in your relationships while the guys are the coarse, un-nuanced rubes who are best led about by their swinging dicks, lest they make bad decisions.

Thanks for the WAL of text! This is spot on. This thread is the 'Betrayed Menz' so we know it doesn't follow the societal view of MAN BAD...WOMAN GOOD. It occurs to me that almost every resource I have found on infidelity begins from that angle, and if you don't fit into that narrative, you must adjust and reverse the story...so I am glad we have this little corner of the forum to vent.

So here I am...a man of honor and integrity that always held my wife in the highest regard (and all the women I ever dated). Being a southern gentleman will always be in my DNA, and that means to always respect HER honor and reputation. But then my wife has multiple affairs behind my back over the course of our 29 year marriage and I am turning red pill. The old guy that I used to really like is now dead. The current guy sees the world in a very cynical lens, and has thoughts that everyone around him is a liar, cheater and a basic fuck. I don't like the new guy, but that is my current reality, and the gift of infidelity. I now seem to have a large bucket of 'fuck you' at all times for everyone...trying to work on that so I don't become the bitter old man that nobody wants to be around. 'Bitter, Party of 1...your table is ready...'

Notthevictem posted 9/27/2018 19:02 PM

I now seem to have a large bucket of 'fuck you' at all times for everyone...

Dude!!! You're turning into KFC!!!


Aww... i wanna morph into a multinational friend chicken company too... just not bojangles.

stolenyears posted 9/27/2018 23:32 PM

Dude!!! You're turning into KFC!!!

As long as I'm not the creepy tanned George Hamilton crispy colonel, I am good with that.

Candyman66 posted 9/28/2018 11:32 AM

My problem is I don't dance around the subject. I'm not going to lie and say "pretty please with sugar on it" if it's a do or die situation. I don't lie and don't have time or sympathy for those that do.

If it is an either/or then in my estimation it's only fair to tell them this. It's like the boss needs something by Monday and it's Friday and he is politely asking you but doesn't mention that he has been disappointed in you ability to make deadline and your job is riding on this. Come Monday and you are not done yet so he fires you , you are surprised and didn't think he was fair.

Same with my WW, her marriage is on the line with this and if I don't get the performance I expect then she will be fired from the marriage! I mean why is everybody surprised that this would be a REQUIREMENT for even an attempt at R.

When responding before I realize that I just couldn't understand why BW's were ALWAYS defending the WW. I looked at this as just more treachery that we men have to deal with.

Now I realize that each was reacting to what I was saying through their own lens of sexual assault and sexual hurts by unknown other people.

It will still not change the requirement that she do for me EVERYTHING she did with him. I mean come on she was JUST DOING ALL these thing!!!! Just not with me. So still firm in my concept of demanding because if this doesn't happen VERY soon with smiles and exorbitant enthusiasm then I will serve you!

JMO YMMV

Rideitout posted 9/28/2018 12:06 PM

If it is an either/or then in my estimation it's only fair to tell them this. It's like the boss needs something by Monday and it's Friday and he is politely asking you but doesn't mention that he has been disappointed in you ability to make deadline and your job is riding on this. Come Monday and you are not done yet so he fires you , you are surprised and didn't think he was fair.

I couldn't agree more. It's the only reason I participate in those threads, so that WW's can hopefully get that message through to them. This isn't a "nice to have", it's not "well, maybe someday", it's a absolute must to consider R for many (most, IMHO) BH's. In fact, I'd go so far as to say, even if you didn't do anything all that special with the OM (which is rare, but does happen), you should still amp it up with the BH. It's absolutely critical to help us (or at least me) heal, bond, and feel like my W wants me again above all others.

The reason I fight in threads like that is because I often see people come in and say things like "your body, your choice" and "That's not a valid requirement for R". First off, TBH, those piss me off. But MORE important than my annoyance, some WW somewhere is reading that and getting her bullshit co-signed BIG TIME. Well then, my BH is being unreasonable wanting anal, it doesn't matter I did it every time with OM and not him, it's all about how I feel about it. Besides, I was broken and feel ashamed, so, that should be enough.

And maybe it SHOULD be enough. But it's not. That would be an "immediate D" for me. Do not pass go, do not collect 200 dollars. Just straight to court. And we can sugar coat it all we want, and explain about sexual abuse, and how women often are compelled to do things in an A that they don't want to do (which I believe not at all), but, the fact remains, this will lead you to D with just about any man I've ever met.

I gave the analogy before, but it's like if a WH comes on here talking about how good the sex is with his AP and we (men) jump in and tell him "It's ok, just tone it down; you're not hurting your wife. She'll R with you anyway, sex isn't that important to most women". Yeah, good luck with that, it's TERRIBLE advice to give a WH; it might be (is, I'm sure) what they WANT to hear, but it's also completely counter to the advice that's most likely to lead to R; drop her like a bad habit, get ready for a long sexual drought, and do your best to make your wife feel special again. Might not feel good (for the WH), but it's the best way to ensure a shot at R.

The advice I'd give a WW is short and sweet. Do it all. Everything you did with the OM, before he asks. And throw in some more stuff too, if there's anything left. Push your boundaries with him, in fact, remove your boundaries entirely. Show him you trust him and love him above all others, and you'll do anything he wants in bed to make him believe it. Drop the OM like a bad habit, come clean, and prepare for a long spell of porn star sex. Smile, enjoy it, and beg him for more.

That's the best advice I have for a WW, completely counter to the advice I feel a lot of posters on these threads provide. I know that's the recipie that I wish my W followed, and, should I D, in a large part, it's because I had to compel her to provide details/timeline and yes, the sex and sexual enthusiasm that she had with the OM.

BrainFreeze posted 9/28/2018 13:18 PM

ISSUE: If the wayward (did Sex Act 1) for AP then the wayward should be willing to (do Sex Act 1) for the Betrayed, willingly and with enthusiasm.

View 1: Some say that this this is wrong, and the wayward shouldn't have to do anything that they don't want to do. Right?
View 2: Some BS's say that the wayward should be compelled to (do these exact same sex acts). Right?

So, lets take the emotion out of it for the purposes of examining the logic. I'm going to use the exact same sentence as above but I will replace the (reference to sex act), with a non-offensive activity...

If the wayward (walked the dog) for AP then the wayward should be willing to (walk the dog) for the Betrayed, willingly and with enthusiasm.

View 1: Some say that this this is wrong, and the wayward shouldn't have to do anything that they don't want to do. Right?
View 2: Some BS's say that the wayward should be compelled to (walk the dog). Right?

IMHO, The wayward should walk the dog, but the wayward does get the choice, and so does the betrayed, and if this is a deal breaker, then a new deal should be explored. i.e. get a new dog walker.

Lets do the exercise a 3rd time, but this time we will inject a little emotion into it... ?

If the wayward (talked about the affair) for AP then the wayward should be willing to (talk about the affair) for the Betrayed, willingly and with enthusiasm.

View 1: Some say that this this is wrong, and the wayward shouldn't have to do anything that they don't want to do. Right?
View 2: Some BS's say that the wayward should be compelled to (talk about the affair). Right?

I think most here would agree that NOT talking about the affair would be a deal breaker, and that eventually a new deal should be found.

I'm sure my sentence could be word smithed to twist it any way you want.... but the bottom line is that after betrayal, the betrayed person is resetting their life goals and the relationship with their spouse. It's a new relationship. Both people should get what they want out of life. If the wayward is not able to go along with the dreams of the betrayed, then D is an option. And I mean that for all things, not just sex acts. Not necessarily because of infidelity (although that obviously has a huge part in it) but because the dreams of the betrayed and the dreams of the wayward no longer match up, if they ever did in the first place.

Life is too short guys, if you can't live without (insert reference to sex act here) then go get it either with your former wayward OR with someone new. After all...at this point the relationship is already FUBAR...

It's about dreams, goals and realigning your desires and goals with your life. (not just sex, but everything)

If not getting (INSERT GOAL or DESIRE HERE) is a deal breaker... then go get a new deal.

Seems logical to me...

Notthevictem posted 9/28/2018 13:56 PM

Don't try to logic me!! I am impervious!!

wincing_at_light posted 9/28/2018 14:07 PM

Part of the difference for me is that I don't try to give advice to WWs. I can't do it authentically, because I realized a long time ago that I don't really give a fuck about WWs.

I only care about whether they find healing/recovery/reconciliation/fulfillment to the extent that it benefits their BH. The holistic view, of course, is that a healed wayward makes them a safer partner and thus, more likely to help their betrayed spouse heal without causing additional damage.

And sometimes, the holistic view is even the best one...but that's rare, in my opinion.

BrainFreeze posted 9/28/2018 14:27 PM

I only care about whether they find healing/recovery/reconciliation/fulfillment to the extent that it benefits their BH.

I believe that is a required first step.

There was a duration of time where I wondered if I cared about my WW healing at all. After all... I couldn't control it. So why put any energy into it? During that time (Dec 2017 - Feb-ish 2018) I was daring her to step out of line. Ready to pounce... ready to let go at the drop of a hat. I couldn't wait to see her step out of line so I could drop the hammer. Go ahead... look at that guy in the sales video... I dare you!

I realize now that all the attitude I had back then was just posturing... I never wanted a divorce, but I was preparing myself. It was real at the time, or well... it felt real at the time...but if it was NOT posturing, then I would have just gone ahead and filed the papers with the lawyer. No chest thumping required.

Anyways - I'm ready for a barley pop...

Have a great weekend gang!

jaynelovesvera posted 9/28/2018 14:44 PM

Just read the OT topic at the recommendation here. Got me thinking about how I raise my daughters. The eldest has not been assaulted but there have been inappropriate advances and she did what we taught her to do. She was loud, threatening and at one point, a fellow saw just how big a barrel can look when you're on the wrong end of it.

It's good that these ladies are finding some comfort in telling their stories.

I'm wondering if a thread where men post the trauma of being falsely accused would be as welcome on SI as that post seems to be.

I was falsely accused. In my case, I was accused of sexual abuse of one of my children by my MIL. She went to the police.

She is a CSA survivor from her account. Her father. And her brother is a convicted pedophile.

I wasn't immediately arrested and my child wasn't taken away in part because I'm fire/rescue and I had a working relationship with local law enforcement.

Still, my daughter was traumatized more than me as I see it. We still scheduled a physical exam, a psychological one with a CSA counselor, and as a preacher too, I reported it to the elders and my denominational governing authority.

At any point, they might have thought it safer to cut me loose. Fortunately for us, they didn't.

I was within a hair's breadth of losing my job, my certification and my freedom.

To say that the relationship with my in laws is strained is a vast understatement. My daughter has almost nothing to do with her grandparents.

I get that these topics can be very emotional. I feel emotional writing this out, 9 years after the fact. But emotions should not replace due process. And even due process in some places begins with the accused being treated as guilty from the onset.

I don't think it would take more than a few minutes before a thread about the stories of the falsely accused was locked and the OP warned.

But I'm not a very optimistic person

numb&dumb posted 9/28/2018 15:37 PM

WAL of text ? Clever.

Good see you posting in here with the Menz again. Good times were had here.

It is funny your view and approaches on this stuff have not really changed. It is kind of weird that it mirrors a lot of my own now that I got some distance and growth behind me.

However I tend to feel very comfortable giving WW advice. Because I guess I look at it through my own situation. I give them advice because I feel sorry for them. I know what I was like at times in R and yeah I don't really blame their BHs either. So I offer advice to hopefully minimize the damage they don't think they are causing.

One time you made a post about a WW realizing that after dday that there was nobody willing to fight for her or something about movies. IDK, either one works. The Disney princess infused idea about romance, unicorns and other touchy feely shit is very real in their mind. Losing that weird quasi reality bubble where they move from a prize to be won to a liability that might be written off is a very steep fall.

Don't get me wrong. It sucks donkey balls being a BH. No a single part of my life was not impacted by my W's A. No she never did anything with OM that she refused me either. The emotional element was her draw. It was easy to see because the details of their one encounter is beyond embarrassing . . . for both of them. Yeah I am OK with never having that. My W can't pretend to be a better person with me. She can't pretend to be so awesome anyone would want her. I know her too well. I did and would call her on that. Probably not in the way I should have, but I couldn't stand the self delusion.

FWIW I get a hangover just by typing MD 20/20.

unsure73 posted 9/28/2018 17:22 PM

holding together.....I love that video!!!!!!!!!!!! what an American!!!!

Candyman66 posted 9/28/2018 17:39 PM

Guys, no offense, but has anybody else seen performances like these? I mean 383 yards and 8 touchdowns in 1 game? Just asking.

unsure73 posted 9/28/2018 17:43 PM

candyman… but did he kneel before the game?

Candyman66 posted 9/28/2018 17:49 PM

I live in San Diego so no pro football anymore but damn some of these high school games are so much fun.

You have no idea what penalty was called most times but its unpolished and rather random some times. I think the coaches idea of a play is "give the ball to him and then try to knock somebody ( hopefully wearing the other schools colors) down! That's it but he just makes it work.

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