SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Thanks everyone for your replies and advice. I appreciate it and am doing my best to take it all in. This is the most horrible thing I have experienced, and I have no idea what to do. I do want to say I am not dedicated to reconciliation. If anything I am moving towards ending my marriage because I do not know if reconciliation is even possible with someone who has been so unfaithful for so long. I have zero trust and respect for her, and doubt that will ever recover. I am not sure how I can continue being married to someone when I really do not know who they are and what they are capable of.
I am really trying to figure out what will happen to my family and life when I decide to leave. I am not sure if I should have left as soon as I found out, or contacted the other guy's wife immediately. I have asked over and over again for more details, for more of the truth, and I get the same vague answers. Glossing over 14 years of infidelity with short confessions. However, there are times when I ask myself if I need to know anymore. The damage is done to an extreme level already. I already feel like moving on with our marriage is an impossibility. I am more concerned with how this is going to affect my kids and my relationship with them. I was blindsided and am incredibly confused. I do not know if I am doing anything correctly here. I do not know what to do or say or feel.
But this is all very helpful and I am absolutely considering everyone's advice. I'm strongly considering contacting the other guy's wife. I have recently reached out to my friend and shared with him what is going on. He is actually in a somewhat similar situation with his wife as well, so we a have our own unfortunate support system going.

Your wife unfortunately is not trustworthy at all. I am sympathetic but believe you would be best served by moving forward with the divorce process regardless of if you wanted some kind of relationship with her at any level going forward. That would totally depend on her doing deep therapy with an infidelity specialist for years probably.

But you should not wait around for that. She is not currently a safe partner and wouldn't be for a long time.

So meet with a few attorneys and gain an understanding of what divorce might look like for you. Then start the process. It can always be stopped. But I doubt she would be ready to be a safe partner for you or anyone by the time you'd legally end your marriage.

So don't let that keep you from making the right decisions for you. Better to unwind yourself from this person as much as legally possible so that when the time comes down the road that you are ready to love someone again you won't have any hindrances.

Good luck.

One thing that is common on this site and something I dislike is when posters make statements like "this is the worst that I have ever read here", or "this is totally non-recoverable".
I have said the following several times: A couple can reconcile from anything as long as both partners understand what lies ahead and are willing to do the work.
I have also said that there is no obligation to reconcile. Like here, in this situation, you are not obliged in any way to reconcile just because. If you want to reconcile, if your wife was on board with reconciling, and if you both could find a united path… great. But if even one of those elements is missing then hoping for R would be like wishing you got the lottery numbers correct.

With all that said…

It’s very common that posters come here unclear on their future. When I read a situation I often try to evaluate if the BS has options or not. Like… if a WS confesses an ONS on a Sunday and is all remorseful and honest then I think the odds of possible R might be high. No less infidelity, no less pain though.

When I read your story I was thinking that you have a really tough road ahead…
I just think the length of the affair, plus all the places, times, events… it’s contaminated… It’s got to shake your belief in your wife to the core. This will be a really tough thing to work through…
Not impossible, but IMHO you really seriously need to look into what ending this marriage would look like.

I get your fear for the children, but the old adage about it being better for kids to come from a broken home than live in one holds true. IF you want to remain married for the kids you would need to reestablish a completely new marriage, and frankly it’s not clear if your wife is capable of that.

For one, total and 100% transparency is required. She needs to answer every factual question you need an answer to. She needs accountability, openness, therapy… There is nothing "normal" or "sane" in having an ongoing 14 year old affair.
Without this openness and commitment your path to reconciling or even rug-sweeping to a semblance of family-life is blocked IMHO.

As suggested look into what a divorce would mean.
Depending on age of kids, income and all that then expect equal custody. Chances are that the mom is better situated for prime-custody, but the two of you would probably share custody with some schedule.
Remember there is no real revenge or payback for infidelity. You wouldn’t divorce her to get revenge, but rather because you don’t see her as a life-partner. Therefore there isn’t much to gain in being confrontational or making each other enemies. You can be amicable in interacting and united in parenting decisions without sharing a home or bed.

Big difference in saying "I’m filing because you f…ed around!" and "I can’t see you as a safe partner and your affair has made me not want this marriage".

Get a realistic understanding of divorce. I always recommend an attorney to ensure everything is done correctly, but maybe the two of you can do this amicably and reasonably with a mediator.

This is the most horrible thing I have experienced

Me, too brother.

I have no idea what to do.

Neither did I. It's pretty rare for someone first finding out about their spouse's affair to have a clear idea or "know" what to do. This shit is hard. Really hard. I know you mean it when you say it's the most horrible thing you've ever been through because it was/is for me too. Don't beat yourself up over it. What you're experiencing is normal. Your reaction, confusion and indecisiveness are all normal. It just sucks really bad.

I do want to say I am not dedicated to reconciliation. If anything I am moving towards ending my marriage because I do not know if reconciliation is even possible with someone who has been so unfaithful for so long.I have zero trust and respect for her, and doubt that will ever recover. I am not sure how I can continue being married to someone when I really do not know who they are and what they are capable of.

I don't blame you. I would suggest you start taking steps toward divorce. Now, that suggestion isn't "go balls out and get a divorce, period," but start the process. It takes time. Often months or even a year or more to finalize a divorce. Starting the process will do a few things tho.

It will give you a direction and just making the decision for me was freeing. I mean, I didn't want to get a divorce, but at the same time it was like a weight had been lifted off my shoulders just having made a decision to start the process of getting out of infidelity.

You will still have time to make up your mind which direction you want to go. If your wife has a monumental shift in her attitude and actions and manages to move mountains to convince you to work it out with her you can pause or stop the process any time you want if you change your mind.

It will also send a solid message to your wife that you're not going to live in infidelity one minute more.

[This message edited by Pogre at 4:38 PM, Saturday, April 4th]

I am sympathetic but believe you would be best served by moving forward with the divorce process regardless of if you wanted some kind of relationship with her at any level going forward.

I’ve never understood why some here poo-poo the concept, but consider the divorce as a "demotion". She’s lost the right to the title of "wife". For Pete’s sake, if any adulterous spouse ever warranted a divorce, it’s yours. Because you have kids, you will never go 100% no contact with her.

Also consider this: if after the divorce, the certifiably miraculous occurs, and your wife manages somehow to utterly transform her inner character to the core, and demonstrates this with YEARS of taking full accountability, giving you favorable terms in the D, etc. etc., you could potentially choose to make her your girlfriend at some point. If even more miracles occur and you decide to remarry way down the road, you would have an iron-clad pre-nup in place specifically calling out for draconian consequences for any choices you list.

Some have taken this exact path, and I’ve yet to see where this decision was regretted. If she doesn’t crawl on broken glass for you and blow your mind with a transformation, which will most likely be the case, then you co-parent for as long as necessary, and start your life anew, with a chance at a relationship where at least you know with certainty they haven’t already cheated on you a thousand times.

not knowing what to do or what to even feel is completely understandable and normal for most people.
I flailed around for a few months exactly in that position until I found forums like this to get advice and rant about it all. Their guidance I can credit as saving me, both from her and myself.

You can only make decisions about your future based on actions - not words.

My H was the poster child for "I have to D" due to his last midlife crisis affair being his 2nd affair and uncovering things about the first affair (25 years prior). When I told him I had no other options left and right after the holidays I was filing for D, he begged for another chance. I refused.

He started making amends immediately. I saw my counselor the day before I planned to file the papers w/ an attorney. He pointed out that my H was taking steps to make amends and maybe I should reconsider. I didn’t tell my H this but I decided to give it 30 days to see if it was possibly to R.

It was his actions that made the difference.

And I offered no help or support or advice. He was on his own figuring out what needed to be done to remain married. I didn’t set boundaries - but he did. It’s been 12 years and we are very happily R.

No suspicion of cheating in those past 12 years either. He recognized there were no more chances and I will walk out the door in a heartbeat.

Soooo…..,,,,absent your wife’s vague answers, and the fact there has been more than one instance of cheating, her actions are the only thing you can base a decision to R or not on.

And if you have not seen any effort to date, most likely there won’t be any.

And that makes your decision easy - R sadly, just will not work.

I am very sorry you are facing this travesty of her making. I really am. The duplicity is staggering isnt it? To some of your initial questions:

I am curious how people with small children eventually decided to get a separation? How long did it take to decide? How is your relationship with your kids now? How hard was it on them to get a separation or divorce? What should I be doing now if I ultimately decide to get a divorce?

I too had small children. I white knuckled staying with a semi remorseful cheater for almost ten years and am on record here saying many times that it was the most brutal and exhausting time of my life, and thats saying a lot considering my upbringing. I have since remarried a wonderful woman who is also a survivor of a terrible betrayal and have rebuilt my life with a great marriage and we both have a excellent relationships with our adult children and now grands.

As far as being hard on the kids, the only real question was which is harder on them, staying in a fractured, frankenmarriage (in my case) or putting the "marriage" down via divorce and successfully coparenting while rebuilding a healthy life of peace, balance, harmony and eventual love (again)? Its only on the other side of it all that I truly understood what I had been settling for for almost a decade and it made me very very sad.

As far as preparing to get a divorce, thats a pretty well worn path. Get a consult with a well recommended divorce attorney and let them lay it out for you. Theres a lot more to it of course, and youll find ton of good input here in the healing library. Its a journey for sure, but there can be a lot of good on the other side of the travail, at least there was for me thank God.

I am more concerned with how this is going to affect my kids and my relationship with them.

This is going to affect your kids regardless of whether you give R a chance or head straight to D. It took me at least a few years to fully understand how the trauma affected me, let alone how those changes affected my relationship with my son (and the rest of my life in general).

How a divorce will affect them and your relationship with them depends upon a great many factors, many of which will be beyond your control. However, I do believe that being as open and honest with them as appropriate is always a good approach.

I do not know if I am doing anything correctly here. I do not know what to do or say or feel.

None of us ever do. It's not like they teach this shit in school. Still, so long as you're being honest with yourself and kind to yourself, you're on the right path.

I'm strongly considering contacting the other guy's wife.

Consider this: if you were in the dark and she knew, how would you feel about being informed?

This is all really good advice. Thanks for all of the input.

I have brought up before how we should navigate a separation or divorce, and I am definitely going to bring it up again.

I am obviously extremely alert and paranoid, so I am watching everything she does now. However, aside from not speaking to this guy or speaking to any other men inappropriately, I am not sure what other actions I am expecting from her. What other boundaries I should set or changes in her behavior I should ask for. I am not sure if her actions are consistent with her telling me she wants to stay with me. She has been going to a therapist for awhile even before I discovered the affair, so that change in behavior doesn't really sway my decision or put any trust back in her.

I had no idea she was having an affair and never thought it was a possibility because I thought we had a great marriage and life together and her behavior never gave off any major red flags. I can look through her phone and emails forever and may not find any conversations with other men because she might find different ways of hiding them. The way we were with each other seemed happy and that was what I obviously wanted, but that perception has completely changed now and I am not sure what I need her to do to find a path to reconciling. Hand her phone to me every night and scan her emails to make sure she isn't cheating still? Hire a private investigator to follow her around to see if she is being faithful? Spy on her and track her every move? That is a life I never wanted to live and still do not want.

So I guess my question is, what changes in a marriage should a betrayed person that wants to stay together ask for when all of the previous behaviors you saw seemed normal before you discovered the affair? After losing that trust, what should the cheater be doing to gain it back aside from just not cheating anymore? What concrete proof and behaviors did the cheating spouse exhibit to gain your trust back if you did reconcile?

I am hoping what I am saying and asking makes sense. I am obviously all over the place with ideas and emotions, and I may not be expressing them clearly. Thanks to everyone again.

What should you expect? Action. From your cheating spouse. On their own.

Here a few things my H did on his own:

No more meetings w/ women alone. Group meetings ok. One in one - nope. (His idea not mine).

Deleted her email and contact info in front of me. Also blocked her in front of me. His idea not mine.

Open to any and all discussion about whatever I needed to talk about or discuss regarding the affair.

Willingly signed a post nup agreement. I required it to even consider R.

Very accountable. If he was going to the local store he went and came back. If he had to go to a different store he notified me. Total transparency (his idea not mine).

Took a bit more active role in parenting instead of me always being the bad guy.

Went to therapy (on his own). Willing to do marriage counseling if I was willing (at the time I wasn’t).

Recognized the damage his affair caused and understood its impact.

Just a few examples. Hope this helps you.

One thing she could do to gain back trust is to create a written timeline of her affair(s). It should list out pretty much everything in as much detail as possible. All the times the met, what they did, what she was thinking and feeling. All the times it started and stopped. Gifts he gave her, or that she gave him, and so on. Backed up by whatever proof she can muster. Then once it’s complete, she will take a polygraph to demonstrate that it’s an honest and full accounting.

Empathy for your pain and trauma. Actions to demonstrate she is actively working on correcting her brokenness that allowed her to lie and betray her BH. She obiously has a very selfish attitude that allowed her to carry on this second life behind your back. Actions not words.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 7:18 PM, Monday, April 6th]

Along with the written timeline, ask her to research and create a draft rebuilding plan for your relationship. It won't be very good but it will be something to work on and document things.

But she has to drive this. You cannot be the lead in that. If she's gonna fix what she destroyed she needs to actively be the one who drives that process.

And make it very clear, you are going to pursue putting in place the paperwork needed to divorce her. Only her actions in this period will determine if you feel that process should be slowed down. You are not gonna be caught flat footed if she cheats again. You will have everything ready to legally end the marriage her choices destroyed.

I recommend you also read the book "how to help your spouse heal from your affair" by MacDonald. You can suggest it to her too but don't get it for her. Only she can show you by taking the right steps toward rebuilding. You can't take them for her.

Again Good luck.

I'm somewhat confused are there 2 different APs or is there just the one? You were contacted last year by one OBS then you found additional messages with another man around Christmas or was it the same man?

I think you need to start to prepare for the all too predictable truth to eventually trickle out. Yes, they had some sort of sexual relationship... 14 years of contact with emotional messages back and forth? And if it was 2 different men then your wife is a serial cheater who had no problems blowing past any reasonable boundary one expects in a marriage. Go ahead with the DNA tests even if the results don't matter to you. Don't tell your children why you are doing the tests.. make a cover story it's for ancestry or something. But your WW needs to know just how little you trust her and whether anything for the past 14 years is real or not.

Next time you and your WW have a discussion which I hope is soon. Ask your wife is it ok for you to get a girlfriend or two for the next 14 years? Tell her you will be discrete and not rub her nose is it. You won't bring the girlfriends around your house or your kids in this time period. Maybe, in the year 2040 (!!!!) you will agree to settle for your wife and go back to a monogamous relationship with your WW. I write this with my tongue firmly planted in my cheek, but your WW (and you) need to fully understand the depth and scope of her affairs. BTW I doubt your WW would be agreeable to the above suggestion, but it would be interesting to hear her response.

Two additional things:
1) Do not be scared to lose your WW to the other man (either one.) It's been 14 years- this is not an exit affair. In fact, find out the address of the latest AP and be willing (with a bag packed for her) to take your WW to this man's address and when you pull into the man's driveway, offer to let your WW stay there while you go back to your home. You'll at least learn whether your WW knows where the man lives and if she does, you pretty well know that she's been there before and it was, most likely, for sex. Remember, the one willing to end the relationship holds the power.

2) Do not allow your WW to hide behind the children and use them as shields. "Think of the children, GoingNowhere01 !!! How will a divorce affect them??" Simply reply, did you think of the children when you were in the affair with the other men? Was she thinking about the children when she was crouched over her phone/computer typing the lovey-dovey messages to the other men? When she was on all fours with the other man? Stick those images in her mind so she knows what you're having to live through on a daily basis. How does that reflect on her as a mother?

Stay strong GoingNowhere91, this is not your fault and you'll get through this. Be prepared to make some tough decisions. Your children will also get through this. They're smart and perceptive. They probably can already detect there's something wrong between the two of you. Let your WW know eventually the children will learn the reasons, maybe not the facts and specific details. But the truth always comes out eventually. Maybe then she can think of the children.

First of all: Divorce isn’t something you ASK for. It’s something you do. Don’t need permission or even her agreement or acceptance.

To reconcile I think you need the truth. In as much detail as you feel necessary.
You need to accept that truth. Acceptance is not the same as condoning.

I think you need assurance that the affair is over and that there is absolutely no contact. Her word is not worth the air spent uttering them: You need openness, trackability, access to phone and media… whatever it takes to build up some level of trust. At the same time, then YOU need to see a way to rebuild trust but that takes time.

I think you need to believe that your wife wants the marriage for the marriage itself: Not because she’s protecting OM, not because of the impact on kids. Not because of social stigma…
Same applies to you.
Remove the need to save the family for the kids. Accept that if you divorce you two can become great coparents and probably parent better than as two antagonists in a "marriage".

So part of the process is accepting that D is a real possibility and understanding what it would (most likely) look like.

A willingness for her to seek therapy to understand why she could do this all this time.