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I am trying a new technique. As I’ve mentioned before, when I’m dealing with a difficulty, like the issue that brings us all here, I will sit quietly, in a dark room to have no distractions and let the feelings wash over me. I don’t try to stuff, judge, or deny their legitimacy as they are occurring. What I do, do, is to analyze them once they settle down and it is then that I do place negative or positive judgements. Are they legit, are they fair, are they kind, could I have done things differently, and what do I do going forward?

Many of you have thoughtfully attempted to encourage me to consider adding a different way of processing. And I have tried to honor, contemplate, and incorporate much of it, even if I was a little dubious. Why, because clearly, sense I am still processing, post 32 years my wife’s infidelity, my processing method is failing me. It took you guys tapping, and yes, some hammering on this point for the past 5 months for me to start to get the message. Okay, we’ve established I’m a slow learner.

For the last few days, I have started to separate my feelings. Not to deny them but to isolate them into two different categories. I am sure there are far more, but for me to have a prayer for success I needed to keep this new exercise as simplistic as possible.

1)New feelings about a new issue
2)Old feelings about an old issue

Okay, so what do I mean by this. If I have a new issue that has caused me to have negative feelings, then I revert to my go-to method of allowing them, then analyzing them. However, if I am experiencing old feeling, over old issue, then I am trying to use the suggested ideas of "being in the present"- "seeing things as they are now, not as they were then".

I’ve tried several ways to accomplish this new processing concept but the one that seems to work best is to focus on deep breathing and not allowing myself to re-feel the feeling.

This idea goes against every fiber of my being and my understanding of how to work through an emotion, it just smacks of avoidance. But, hells bells, I need to do something different! I know this idea has its flaws, I’ve picked it apart in a dozen ways, but I am finding an interesting result, one, I can’t help but analyze.

The negative feeling dissipates with virtually no negative side effects. I’m not anxious or annoyed, angry or sad and most importantly, I am not neutral either, simply put, I feel better about myself and the issue.

It is not that I think my original method is fully flawed or ineffective, quite the opposite. I believe that it is important to identify an emotion, keep it honest and fair, and then use it to a better outcome. But my problem was that I was rehashing old crap that I had already arrived at conclusions and taken needed actions that were mostly successful and then repeatedly going over it again and again knowing I’d come up with the same conclusions.

So, what was my purpose in rehashing? My conclusion is that my ruminating wasn’t done to understand, which is what I’d tell myself, but to judge. To admit that to myself and you all, really sucks! But isn’t admitting moral failure what we ask of our waywards? It goes both ways.

I am in no way suggesting that I’m healed and the pain is magically gone or that I will, going forward, always use this technique properly, the mind is devious at redirecting itself back to old habits but what I will do is keep listening and learning from all of you and also from the things you suggest I read or listen to.

Asterisk

Goodness, Asterisk! Being a little hard on yourself, aren't you? But you made some interesting statements, too.

This whole topic of judgment versus self-protection is so loaded. I think what I do is compare every new self-centered behavior I experience from my fWH to the still-unanswered question: Where did he get his 'permission' to betray his vows so effortlessly?" (He claims he had zero thought about being married at the time he decided to "act out" with a prostitute.) Usually, I end up drawing a direct connection between his current selfish behaviors that I've not experienced from others in my life to his rampant selfishness in betraying a vow, but your comment has me asking myself if this is because I'm still trying to protect myself from any further vulnerability, or am I just too broad in my negative conclusion that likely he must not be wired for any kind of intimate partnership, period? (My fWH is probably "on the spectrum" of autistic brain wiring, never diagnosed. His toddler years as a firstborn were spent in isolation on the family farm. He lacked any playmates or siblings, had a depressed, pre-occupied mother and a very busy father. I can picture the little guy never learning to interact with others. Yet who has to pay the price to try and stay in relationship with such a personality? The partner, of course!)

But we should work on our own flaws, as you point out. I am going to have to try your method and see if it helps me.

I've read this post a few times and I'm struggling to understand exactly what you're writing about. Maybe it's just me. If you were to provide an example of whatever emotions you're having, it would be easier, I think, to help.

A specific example?

Superesse,

Honestly, I do not believe I am being hard on myself. I’m just attempting to be honest with myself.

Thank you for sharing some of your story with me, I know it can be both painful and at the same time healing. I hope it is the latter in this case. I have two grandkids 14, 17 who are on the spectrum which gives me some added insight into some of the unusual characteristics, especially poor social skills. I witness the struggles that autistic individuals have as they are attempting to just do the simplest tasks.

I’m glad that you saw some value in what I was attempting to express. I’ll be interested if you would let me know how this breathing verses feeling techniques works out.

Asterisk

Unhinged,

I've read this post a few times and I'm struggling to understand exactly what you're writing about. Maybe it's just me. If you were to provide an example of whatever emotions you're having, it would be easier, I think, to help.
A specific example?

"A specific example" Oh boy, here goes. The most recent one is a bit awkward, but it is what I was dealing with last night and the reason for my posting this morning, I just wasn’t planning on going into the details. But as you have said to me in the past, "You don’t get off so easily!" Enough stalling.

About 16 years into our marriage and about 1 year into my wife’s affair, while we were getting ready for bed, I couldn’t help but notice that my wife’s pubic hair was completely shaved off. I was a little taken back because this isn’t anything that I had ever suggested, nor was interested in so of course I asked her about it. She went on to explain that she did it for me, hoping I’d find it sexy. I didn’t tell her that I didn’t like it, I’m not THAT STUPID and we both got a laugh out of my puzzled reaction. A ha,ha,ha, that would come to bite me 4 years later. I should have been suspicious at that time because she had asked to be free of sex with me and we were not sexual so why would she be doing something in the hopes of turning me on? I guess hope paves over reality ever friggen time.

Anyway, fast forward 4 years and I’m sitting on the bedroom floor as my wife is sitting on the bed disclosing her affair. I did what I always do in a panic moment, I get real calm and try to figure out what exactly is happening and what the right response should be. I avoid knee-jerk reactions because, from my experience, fast thoughtless responses rarely get the results I want. So here I am sitting there, looking up at her drawn-tight face asking her a number of pointed questions. Which, she was extremely candid, not her normal go to in difficult situations.

You know, the typical ones, who was it? Is it over? Do you love him? Do you love me? Important questions for sure and then some not so important ones, but just as devastating.

One of them was when I asked her about the time she shaved her pubic hair completely off. Did she do it for me or did she do it at his request? I knew the answer before it crossed her lips, and it stung like hell. My self-worth sunk as I realized that back then I wasn’t laughing with her I was being laughed at. I was the butt of their joke! For me at least, being gaslighted is much, much worse than being lied to.

So, knowing you Unhinged you probably are going to ask why did this come into my mind so many decades later. Am I right? 😊 I was on the phone talking with my best friend and he was telling me he was on his way to a man-scaped appointment. I tried racking my brain as to what the heck he was talking about. So, I asked, and he told me it is a place where a man goes to have all of his pubic and surrounding areas’ hair removed and under arm hair trimmed. He’s single so I guess that’s a thing but being marriage sense, I was a teenager I’m obviously out of the loop. Again, I got a kick out of it, chuckled a bit with my friend and did not think of it again until that night as my wife was getting undressed and ready for bed.

I didn’t say anything, I just tried to go to sleep, but that memory and all the emotions and beliefs attached to it came flooding back into my brain. Typically, when this happens, I get out of bed and sit in another room, with the lights out, and let those feelings and thoughts run the gambit. Then once that has played out, I try to make sense of it. Often it works well, be sometimes, especially when related to the affair, I come away exhausted and feeling, well let’s just say, like dog excrement.

I decided instead to attempt to put the focus on deep breathing to the test again. I am only to pay attention to how and how much air I am quietly sucking in and then pay attention, making sure to push all that spent air back out of my lungs. And when the other thoughts attempted to butt in, I am to just breathe in deeper and longer and do the same on the exhale. It took maybe about ten minutes for me to simply be over it. Which made it easier for me to remember that that was then, and this is now. That that was the woman and man we were then and this is the woman and man that we are now. None of that exists today except when I bring it forward in time.

I hope this helps my friend and comrade,

Asterisk

1)New feelings about a new issue
2)Old feelings about an old issue

You left out new feelings about an old issue and old feelings about a new issue...

I didn’t say anything, I just tried to go to sleep, but that memory and all the emotions and beliefs attached to it came flooding back into my brain...slash...Which made it easier for me to remember that that was then, and this is now. That that was the woman and man we were then and this is the woman and man that we are now. None of that exists today except when I bring it forward in time.

2 is good for items that you've processed and have fully analyzed to death. I'm just not sure it's a fully good idea to shield from your wife when you are having these struggles. Full honesty would be best. We aren't as slick as we think we are and she will likely pick up when this happens. If she doesn't hear it from you, that means she has to speculate on the cause.

You left out new feelings about an old issue and old feelings about a new issue...

That is a good catch Grubs. I had thought of it but intentionally left it out to keep the process simple. I plan to add it once it all becomes second nature.

As to talking about it with my wife. I get what you are saying and I could not agree with the concept more. However, I must conduct myself in a way that that works for my wife. She simply does not want to talk about it. I can force it, but that comes with it's own downsides. Plus, I'm very clear headed that this is my internal battle to wage. My wife knows I am in it. She knows I'd like her involvement. She knows I am on this site. I'm not hiding anything from her. Simply put, like it or not, she is a free agent and she choses to stay out of the conversation. That is one of the major reasons why I am here, to have the ability to voice myself, hear myself, listen to what people say what they believe I am saying and of course, I'm hopeful that I might be in some small way help to others.

Asterisk

There are no statutes of limitations on infidelity. I honestly believe that to be true. This thread reinforces that belief.

I have no doubt that what you experienced last night was a very powerful trigger. I feel you, brother.

I'd imagine that your wife didn't want to cheat on her affair partner, which is thoroughly FUBAR.

I should have been suspicious at that time...

I don't like the word "should" when it regards human nature or behaviors. It's inapplicable, unreasonable, and judgemental bullshit. In science it's a perfectly reasonable term. If I drop an object it should fall to the ground. To tell another human being that they should or shouldn't do this or that, feel such and such, or whatever, is just fucking wrong. (There are reasonable exceptions that have to do with the law, of course. It's fair to say that one should always stop at a stop sign, pay your mortgage, taxes, whatever).

I've read from countless members who have chastised themselves for missing red flags that in hindsight seemed impossible to miss. It's incredibly common. In this regard, you're neither alone nor abnormal. I missed a few and kicked myself in the ass for having been so stupid.

But it's not stupidity. It might be naive, to some degree, but I cannot, nor will I, berate anyone, including me, for never believing their spouse would have an affair.

So, cut yourself some slack here. None of us are clairvoyant.

We all have to learn to deal with triggers. What works for some might not work for others. I did my best to disarm them by sitting with them and trying to figure out why something was triggering, if it was worth the energy, was there something unresolved, and so on and so forth. The whole process sucks and there’s simply no way around it, unfortunately.

Grubs, hello again,

I’ve been bouncing around your thought that (I should not shield my wife…..Full honesty would be best.) And as I stated in the last reply to you, I fully 100% agree. But I only do so from my perspective, not my wife’s, and her needs are equal to mine. To force her to approach an issue as I believe best will more than likely result in a poor outcome, saddled with frustration on both sides.

I would like to give you an example, my mind works best with analogies so please bear with me.

My wife was a professional pianist/organist. The quality of her work was breathtaking her music could lift the devil himself into praise of his creator. Me, on the other hand, I can’t sing a note without injuring others. I have no rhythm or shoulder, hip sway when I attempt to dance. And to playing an instrument, no chance in hell that I could squeak out a pleasurable sound. I just do not possess the natural skill nor the will to force myself to learn how to do musical things, especially because I only become crappy at them causing a block of very unhappy neighbors.

Now if my wife decided that I must, for her comfort and satisfaction learn to play the piano at her level of proficiency, I’d be sunk. Our marriage would be sunk. The frustration of being forced would overshadow any progress in learning what I have no talent for. My wife’s frustration at my lack of doing it "her way" would also result in nothing close to a good outcome.

As with all analogies, there are flaws. And I am not asking for agreement only that this might help you and a few others to understand things from a different perspective than "being openly commutative is the only proper way through the process". I agree it probably is the best way but not the only way.

Asterisk

[This message edited by Asterisk at 10:46 PM, Monday, November 10th]

Now... on to this...

As to talking about it with my wife. I get what you are saying and I could not agree with the concept more. However, I must conduct myself in a way that that works for my wife. She simply does not want to talk about it. I can force it, but that comes with it's own downsides. Plus, I'm very clear headed that this is my internal battle to wage. My wife knows I am in it. She knows I'd like her involvement. She knows I am on this site. I'm not hiding anything from her. Simply put, like it or not, she is a free agent and she choses to stay out of the conversation.

I don't understand her indifference. I cannot condone it. I'm trying my very best to carefully choose my words here, friend.

This, to me, is not love. Not. Even. Close.

The negative feeling dissipates with virtually no negative side effects. I’m not anxious or annoyed, angry or sad and most importantly, I am not neutral either, simply put, I feel better about myself and the issue.

Very cool

You are on a great journey, Asterisk

Unhinged,

I apologize for missing your above, longer comment. I think you must have posted it nearly at the same time as I posted my second response to Grubs. I will attempt to address both here.

I don't like the word "should" when it regards human nature or behaviors. It's inapplicable, unreasonable, and judgemental bullshit. In science it's a perfectly reasonable term. If I drop an object it should fall to the ground. To tell another human being that they should or shouldn't do this or that, feel such and such, or whatever, is just fucking wrong.

We may see this slightly differently, but I do believe your point carries weight just harsher than I would phrase it. However, the harshness doesn’t invalidate your point.

But it's not stupidity. It might be naive, to some degree, but I cannot, nor will I, berate anyone, including me, for never believing their spouse would have an affair.

I reread what I wrote and I don’t believe I, in any form of wording, called my not recognizing the signs as me, or anyone else, as being stupid. I think you assigned that word as an overlay to my saying "…I should have…". Looking at it from your interpretation of the word "should" I better understand why you were very harsh in your response. But I want to be as direct as you in that I am not stupid, I never said I was and never stated or even implied that others who have made the same mistakes were stupid.

Now onto your second reply, which I don’t know if it was a response to the reply I posted within a minute of your other or a follow up to the one above when I was using my wife’s musical skills to try to explain a few things. But either way, I’ll try to answer the below quote.

I don't understand her indifference. I cannot condone it. I'm trying my very best to carefully choose my words here, friend.
This, to me, is not love. Not. Even. Close.

Is she "indifferent"? No, though it took me years to not see it that way so I can understand why you might, sense you do not know anything about my wife other than what I have written. It is a failure on my part that you see her with what feels like disdain. Please, understand I said "feels" like not that you do for you have not directly said you have disdain for her.

"Cannot condone it." I’m not asking you to. I am asking that you attempt to view through a different lens, her lens. I didn’t used to either and that was "unloving of me".

"…choosing your words…" I appreciate that you have and I have no doubt that you did, as I have as well.

"…friend…" on this we fully agree. I believe you and I have become rather good friends. Friends that allow for differences without rejection which makes our new friendship extremely valuable.

"…not love. Not even Close." I would phrase this differently, subtle but vastly different. It is a part of her family-imposed nature to deal with crises internally. She is very pain avoidant. What I do know is that she is in love with me and that she is an extraordinarily loving individual who did an extraordinarily unloving act followed up with a style of dealing with it that can appear to be unloving as well. I’ve wrongly accused her of that as well. I could be judged as you are judging my wife for my hanging onto the pain for over 3 decades. It could be said: that that is not love…not even close. But I do love her so that judgement, though understandable, would be incorrect.

As always, I value your input even when we do not fully understand each other’s words or points of view. The bottom line, agreement or not, we are simply trying to help one another through extremely difficult issues.

Sometimes, for better and sometimes for worse, we let our beliefs limit our perceptions.

Asterisk

HouseOfPlane,

Very cool

You are on a great journey, Asterisk

And you, along with several others helped get me onto this new path. I'm forever in yours and their debt. I hope one day, I can pay it forward.

P.S. I am 10 pages from finishing the book you suggested: Constructive Living. There is a lot to unpack and it has helped me understand appreciate better your approach to life. I wish we were in a small book club where we could toss the ideas around.

Asterisk

The nature of some triggers is that they are entirely unexpected and unexpectedly powerful. Finding out that one's partner changed their body for their ap strikes me as an additional trauma within the much larger trauma of the betrayal itself. I'm really sorry you experienced this trigger. The only positive I see is that I think triggers are pain coming to the surface to be released. Hurts a lot, but a portion of the pain is gone forever.

As for talking with your W, there comes a time when it's reasonable to talk only when one thinks a positive outcome will result from the talk. If one can't see a positive outcome, it's usually best to keep silent. If it's important, IMO, you'll figure out what you want from talking, and bring the topic up.

Many WSes stop sex with their partners to be faithful(!) to their aps. My W's ap wanted her to stop having sex with me, but she didn't. She was pissed, however, that ow didn't stop having sex with her H. That's more trauma, too.

I don’t believe I, in any form of wording, called my not recognizing the signs as me, or anyone else, as being stupid.

I was talking about me feeling stupid for having missed huge red flags. I was talking about plenty of other members who have expressed similar feelings about missing red flags. You know, I've been on this site for over ten years. When I first joined, SI was much busier, with many more active members. "How could I have been so stupid," or something similar, has been written a gazillion times here. This wasn't meant as a personal attack. It's just me pointing out how common the feeling is among betrayed spouses who struggled to understand how they, and me, could have missed such huge red flags.

...you do not know anything about my wife other than what I have written. It is a failure on my part that you see her with what feels like disdain.

Disdain? Yeah. I have a deep disdain for anyone who causes so much pain and anguish to another human being and then refuses to help that person. She knows that you're struggling and refuses to help. That is what I know about your wife.

Am I being judgemental? Oh, lord, man. I am. Absofuckinglutely. I am no paragon of virtue. I have plenty of faults. I know damned well that I have hurt people in my life. Conflict avoidance was my go-to, default response for most of my life. It's taken me years to unravel the shame I buried within because of my own foo shit (narcissistic, cheating father, codependent mother who suffered from CSA).

I was 38 when I got married and I fucked-up that relationship as much as I did the many I had before. Heartbreak after heartbreak, theirs and then my own.

Disdain? Yeah. Been there and done that, with myself!

I cannot say this with certainly, because, well it hasn't happened. However, I honestly believe that if your wife had joined SI and posted her story in the W forum, her avoidance would have been called out and challenged immediately.

Sisson,

Thank you for sharing a little more of your story and for your deep understanding that this particular part of the betrayal was rightfully painful.

As for talking with your W, there comes a time when it's reasonable to talk only when one thinks a positive outcome will result from the talk. If one can't see a positive outcome, it's usually best to keep silent. If it's important, IMO, you'll figure out what you want from talking, and bring the topic up.

Yes, I agree, though I do understand the other point of view and that if a partner is not willing to fully invest themselves in the process, then it might be the best option to divorce. That said, all situations are unique and must be allowed individuals and couples to process in the methods that seem to work. I’ll be the 1st to say that my method, though normally very effective in a crisis was failing me in the long run. And that is why I needed to be open to different ideas, and I appreciate all of them. Some I’ve set aside and a few I’ve begun the process of incorporating them. Geeze, I didn’t mean to be so long winded again.

As to talking with my wife, I did today. It went well and was a very tender moment. I told her what triggered me and the new breathing technique how it allowed me to dissipate the emotion. I also shared the new, to me, idea of that was then, this is now, it was real then, it is not real now concept. It meant a lot to her and she thanked me. Now here’s where the rub could have played out. Other than to say thank you, and it was sincere she did not engage in it beyond that point. No questions or suggestions or statements. In the past, that would have hit me as her not caring about me and my feelings. This judgement would only serve to help spin the feelings further out of control. What I did this morning was to not invest in the outcome. I with authentically accept her thank you and relish the tenderness I felt between us. It was an affectionate result born from the ashes of a terrible event.

Asterisk

Unhinged,

I doubt that you have any idea how much I enjoy our replies to each other. I do apologize that I misunderstood who you were referring to about the "stupid" statement. I listen very closely to what you say, and I probably shouldn’t say this way, but I am growing more affectionate with your personality every time we respond to each other. It just brings me so much connected joy.

I cannot say this with certainly, because, well it hasn't happened. However, I honestly believe that if your wife had joined SI and posted her story in the W forum, her avoidance would have been called out and challenged immediately.

I have no doubt, and I would not attempt to interfere with or protect her from other members, especially waywards. If she felt the need to come to a site like this it would be because she is looking for new ways of dealing with the issues, therefore more open to suggestions. But she is not in a place where she feels the need to do it for herself, and I don’t want her to do it only for me. Honestly, in my opinion, she worked it out and has a clearer, healthier outcome than I have produced. How she did it, heck, I haven’t a clue and the downside to her method is that I wasn’t allowed to participate so I wasn’t able to fully trust her transformation. And what I'm coming to grips with, due to the amazing help from people here, is that I've got let it go and accept what the long-term results might be. Otherwise, I am living in quiet fear of what might come thinking I'm trying to resolve what did happen 3 plus decades ago.

Thank you Unhinged,

Asterisk