SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

If 50 million marriages effected by infidelity have a 15 percent reconciliation rate long term, that’s still 750,000 reconciled couples.

That means the odds are 3 to 17 at least that’s what chatgpt tells me. I think 50 million is a lowball estimate but since the percentage used is always the same so are the odds.

Odds of winning the jackpot in powerball are 1 in 292,201,338.

However, I doubt we have any way to know what statistics to believe. I have never been asked what my marital outcome is, and I have never heard any of you saying you have been surveyed. And I have to say I am in the minority in the people I know who experienced infidelity in their marriage who even went to therapy so they aren’t factored in either. I know plenty still married that shouldn’t be, so I am not trying to paint a rosy picture I am just saying no one has a crystal ball and statistics on this are sketchy at best.

I would also have no idea how many of those successful reconciliations are with serial cheaters but we do have many members here who are reconciled with one. We also have a ton of members here who got raked over the coals until they decided to get out. And a lot of members who rugswept and just stayed married for their own reasons. .

I am pretty sure if reading here is any evidence that in the high majority of cases the bs will try for R. It’s such a shock that they don’t know even how to begin processing it. I don’t think statistics can really dictate where any new member will fall. I would say in a case like this your odds are lower than in other cases, but it’s not impossible. I know some wish they had the hard hitting advice, but I sincerely wonder if anyone is prepared to follow it out of the gate.

I tend to agree with Sissoon statistics really do not come into play in an individual circumstance. Too many variables.

Practical advice to me is rarely different- focus on yourself, try and detach from an outcome so you can get objective, and if you want to try and reconcile don’t sign up for it until there has been a significant amount of consistency.

Neva, I hope you will stay, there is a lot of collective wisdom here and I know many are like me and feel that this group came in clutch when it was needed. Right now you are in shock, and it may help to check out the just found out forum. There is a healing library in the left too.

[This message edited by hikingout at 12:12 AM, Thursday, May 15th]

Thank you! I appreciate all the comments. I will be taking many walk in the parks. Every one of your insights and helpful guidance is so welcome.

I am in a one day at a time mode.

I did want to share something more about me.

I have been through some challenging times in the past including a 17 year struggle of seeing my brother loose his life to addiction. During this time I saw my parents fight tooth n nail for him, i saw us suffering financially and with so much social stigma and violence at home, yet they never gave up on him. They saw him as their child who has a difficult disease and they would never fail him. I was in tow just 14 years old when it all started seeing and coping with everything. At that time it was like there is no choice, you don’t give up on your family so I managed to deal with all that was at home, yet went to school, got an education, built a career, got married. My parents did the absolute best they could for me all the while.

And while my parents lost the battle to save my brother, I see them today living and finding peace in life and joy in my kids.

To find myself today facing a husband who is likely an addict as well brings a special kind of pain back.

But I do feel I have some role models in my parents. They have survived the ultimate loss! I hope I can find the same strength to survive.

You certainly can survive this regardless of which way forward you choose.

I came from a chaotic and abusive home and wanted far better for my own marriage and home. It was not to be in my first marriage....just more pain born of betrayal and the chaos that comes with it.

When that chapter ended, I found a woman, also a betrayal survivor, with whom we have built the marriage and family Ive always wanted. Oh, there was a lot (years) of hard work involved, mostly in the form of individual therapy, and that was extremely helpful.

Again, as you have heard, there are folks here that have chosen to reconcile with truly remorseful WS's and remain happily married.

I can attest that you can do more than survive, you can thrive.

First, thanks for the pointer to an actual article, doble.

"Extensive research conducted by the American Psychological Association found that 53% of couples who experienced infidelity in their marriage were divorced within 5 years, even with therapy. The study says that couples who have been unfaithful are three times more likely to separate than monogamous couples.Oct 24, 2024"

This also says 47% of Ms that experience infidelity are not D'ed within 5 years. Of course, 'not D'ed' isn't a high bar.

Also, '3 times more likely' may or may not be informative, depending on how that's computed.

The most significant variables in how infidelity is resolved are connected with what the partners do after the infidelity. Shirley Glass wrote that 20% of the couples she treated who said they wanted to R split. That says, I think, 80% of the couples she treated did R ... except that the 80% could include couples that just 'didn't D', which is way different from 'did R.' The problem is we don't know what a person doesn't say. Also, not all therapists are as effective as Glass.

The MC we used addressed the infidelity as long as I wanted. I don't know what would have happened if we had consulted an MC who looked for M issues as the source of my W's A. The first IC I consulted and worked with for a few months didn't help. The next one did. If the next one hadn't worked for me, I can't know what I would have done.

So I think the single biggest factors are what work the BS and WS do - and what people do generally depends on what they want and how honest they are with themselves.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 3:47 PM, Thursday, May 15th]

The point of my first post on this thread was not to trigger a statistical argument; it was to point out that choosing to stay with a serial cheater who has been unfaithful for decades, lies as easily as he breathes, squanders money on paying for sex, and brings STDs home to his wife is a huge risk to her mental, physical, and financial health. His behavior is downright pathological and abusive to the extreme. It's irresponsible to suggest otherwise.

Nerva, I also think that whether or not your husband is capable of change is a separate issue from whether or not you will be able to successfully reconcile. I think it's very likely, especially given the nature of his behavior, that if you remain married to him, you're going to spend the rest of your life worrying about his next "relapse." You're going to need to get tested for STDs regularly, and I would also advise you to go on PrEP and use barrier methods. You'll also need to separate your finances and monitor your credit so you know where the money is going, don't end up in debt, and have a safety net of your own if you need it.

And I've said many times before on this forum, cheating rarely happens in a vacuum. I don't think that the type of person who has done what he has done to extent that he has done it is an honest, loving, and selfless person in all other aspects of his life. The biggest shock of Dday isn't just the cheating; it's the realization that you're married to a stranger.

Lastly, it's worth noting that the idea of "sexual addiction" as its own clinical disorder is still a hotly debated topic in the psychiatric community. To date, not even the overly bloated DSM lists it as a diagnosis. There's also a lot of quack therapists with bogus credentials working as sexual addiction therapists, so you need to be careful about who you or your husband are going for treatment.

So while it's entirely possible that your husband has some sort of compulsive disorder related to sex, it's also possible and perhaps even more probable that he as a personality disorder... in which case he probably enjoys lying and getting away with things as much as if not more than the sex.

[This message edited by BluerThanBlue at 4:38 PM, Thursday, May 15th]

Agree with BluerthanBlue especially these points:

choosing to stay with a serial cheater who has been unfaithful for decades, lies as easily as he breathes, squanders money on paying for sex, and brings STDs home to his wife is a huge risk to her mental, physical, and financial health. His behavior is downright pathological and abusive to the extreme.

So while it's entirely possible that your husband has some sort of compulsive disorder related to sex, it's also possible and perhaps even more probable that he as a personality disorder... in which case he probably enjoys lying and getting away with things as much as if not more than the sex.

What started as just the discovery of an A turned into something much darker and sinister for me. It took me YEARS to wake-up and realize it. It did come at my expense as I suffered greatly both physically and mentally because of my xWS's A's and mistreatment of me. He ended up being diagnosed with a personality disorder which explained everything to me. One thing about a personality disorder is that the person cannot change and if they do it is extremely rare.

OP please keep your eyes wide open and watch his patterns of behavior. Patterns you have already seen and patterns that may still be happening. You will definitely have to get tested for STD's every year because of this. I would and I did while I was still married to xWS. Your WS is an extreme risk to you and your physical and mental health. Take all the time you need to heal and process what has happened. I would see a therapist that specializes in trauma therapy.

Can you share what patterns you saw?

The patterns of behavior I kept witnessing from my xWS were:

Not Being Accountable

Deflection

Blame Shifting

Conflict Avoidant

Silent Treatment when called out on his behavior

Persistent Lying

Lack of Empathy

Constant Need for Admiration

Entitlement

Constant Moodiness

Use of DARVO (Deny, Attack, Reverse Victim and Offender)

Arrogant

Exaggerating Achievements

Inflated sense of self-importance

[This message edited by crazyblindsided at 10:55 PM, Thursday, May 15th]

Also make sure you have transparency and can see his phone/devices. If he is hiding it from you or putting passwords on everything that would be something to look out for.

Any behavior changes like being impatient with your healing or blaming you for any of his transgressions would be a red flag.

Thank you so much.

I have been watching a ton of information on ADHD, narcissism, childhood chaos, and everything else that goes into the soup that makes a human being. The one thing I can guarantee is that you do better in life if you’ve had a happy childhood. It is the rock you stand on for the rest of your life. And it’s quicksand if you did not have that childhood. You need to look at what your husband‘s childhood was like, what his genetics are, and I include his extended family in that, and what his behaviors have been like overall. People who cheat routinely do other bad things routinely. An office romance that evolves into cheating and then into a divorce and a remarriage is so painful to the BS, but it is not done from someone who is not feeling or who is cruel. You need to separate the wheat from the chaff in this one. Look at him from start to finish about every person he deals with, and every situation he’s in.
We put blinders on when we fall in love and we have the hardest time taking them off. If your husband is truly remorseful and feels like he can manage to get better and you want to give him time that’s fine. Don’t ruin your health over him though. It means there has to be a stopping place. It means you get all meds if necessary for anxiety and sleep. It means you eat healthy and exercise. It means you have a group of friends you can do things with. It means No when you are done, or yes to R. If you R then you let go. You let go of the anguish and the anger. You move on.

Can you please elaborate on this?

"Look at him from start to finish about every person he deals with, and every situation he’s in."

As in look at how he is with friends and coworkers or family? Or you mean look for more hidden relationships?

Over the course of your marriage you have gotten to know how he treats others. Does he lie easily, does he keep promises, does he value other people, including you. A person who mistreats waiters, uber drivers, anyone who provides a service, is not a good person. They might be charming as can be but that is a facade. It’s how he manages his day. It’s how he talks to you, it’s how he manages stress. He can’t change his genetic makeup but he can get help for his behavior. One thing to keep in mind, every day he makes choices. Are they for the benefit of others or is he focused only on himself. Are you always hyper alert around him? If so you are picking up a ton of negatives. Are you relaxed around him? If so you two have some real positives to bank on. If his behaviors are egregious then you might need to let go. Only you know him, the good and the bad. How one of those outweighs the other will probably tell you what to do.

Neva9643

For further perspective, look up the article that references the University of Denver study on betrayal and future likelihood of the same. Its entitled "Once a Cheater, Always a Cheater? DU Study Examines Serial Infidelity". I have the link but dont think Im allowed to post it per site rules. You should be able to find it relatively easily.

What makes everything even more painful is that he is the kind of person who wouldn’t hurt a fly yet chose to hurt me so gravely.

Overall a complete rule follower, model citizen, kind to folks, helps out friends as needed, he certainly has the good guy image.

However, is severely conflict avoidant, risk-averse and generally the reserved and quite type. All of which have cost him in his career growth and a close friendship.

And he does have a selfish streak - I have taken on more with house and kids despite working full time and having an equally demanding job and he has been ok with it. Somehow culturally this kind of imbalance has been common in our families so it was not so alarming till now.

To say I was blindsided is an understatement. this whole thing hit me like train. We have had our ups and downs but didn’t think he could hurt me so gravely and lead secret life that is so different.

[This message edited by Neva9643 at 2:24 AM, Monday, May 19th]

Neva, My XWH has similar characteristics as yours.

Overall a complete rule follower, model citizen, kind to folks, helps out friends as needed, he certainly has the good guy image.

However, is severely conflict avoidant, risk-averse and generally the reserved and quite type. All of which have cost him in his career growth and a close friendship.

My XWH also craved constant validation and attention, and would monopolize conversations and talk about himself. He has OCD and is an introvert, I believe he is on the autistic spectrum, and has some narcissistic and BPD traits, although I wouldn't go so far as to say he has the full-fledged disorders. He also lost contact with his best friend after they had harsh words with each other, and he didn't attempt to patch things up at any point.

He was able to hide his acting out from me our entire marriage, even when he escalated to sex workers. He lied easily and often, and had very few friends; the few he had were from my family. He was also controlling, a 'glass-half-empty' negative guy, and stressed over small things all the time. He was a constant hypocrite, giving our son and me a hard time over our bad habits while secretly doing things that were far worse.

The behaviors that decided me on D despite his willingness to be in therapy and SAA were:

I made one boundary, that he give me time to process before I decided on D or R. I asked for 6 months to start. Within a week he started reading into everything I did or asked for, "Does this mean you are leaning toward R?" I kept saying I don't know, I don't know, I need time.

He said he learned he is a high anxiety person and it made him stress over things easily. Yeah, okay, not my problem. Besides that, much of what he wanted to talk about was still HIM, and he couldn't hold any space in his brain for me.

The ongoing selfishness and inability to listen to what I was asking for or respect my boundaries made the decision for me.

From what I've read, the very last thing to go (even if an addict is in successful recovery) is the continual lying. They will lie over even the stupidest stuff for a long, long time.

Good luck. I know everyone's story is unique, but when I see anyone in this kind of situation, I want to scream at the victim, "Run far, run fast!"

Neva while your parents were doing the best they could and never gave up on your sibling, I hope you understand that you do not have to do the same for your cheating spouse.

There comes a point when you need to put your children and yourself first.

It is importantly that the children understand some of what is going on b/c they may figure it out at some point. You don’t have to give intimate details but it’s ok to say you are separating b/c of things their dad did, and it just cannot be fixed.

Your mental health as the stronger parent is important. As your spouse stays in his healing path, things may change. You could co-parent together very well. Or if he quits is counseling, and you find yourself in the sane situation and still married, you may be upset that you were not proactive enough.

You need an exit strategy in place. Just in case. You also could benefit from counseling for yourself AND become familiar with the 180.

And he does have a selfish streak - I have taken on more with house and kids despite working full time and having an equally demanding job and he has been ok with it. Somehow culturally this kind of imbalance has been common in our families so it was not so alarming till now.

Neva, I think that you're severely downplaying how much of the burden of every day life that you're carrying. It's difficult for most people who are married with kids and jobs to even carve out time to watch a movie or have a date night, so the fact that your WH had enough free time not only for hooks up but to pursue relationships with other people means that you're pretty much doing everything else.

However, is severely conflict avoidant, risk-averse and generally the reserved and quite type. All of which have cost him in his career growth and a close friendship.

Given your husband's behavior, I think you can cross "risk averse" off his list of personality traits because he is actively engaging in high-risk behavior and is so comfortable with lying that he pulled off hiding a second life for years. If he's lost close friendships or has trouble making friends, it's more likely because he's incapable of being an authentic person and has a limited capacity for empathy. My ex, too, had a "good guy image" (he loved being able to swoop in a play the hero) but once he no longer got a sense of validation from people or was comfortable enough in a relationship, he couldn't be bothered putting himself out anymore.

If your WH was close with people in the past and they just disappeared one day from his life, you might want to consider whether he betrayed their trust in some way and you just never found out about.

As for his stunted career growth, again, pursuing multiple relationships and hunting for hook ups takes a lot of time and energy, which would've been better spent focusing on his career. But just as he relied on you to pick up the slack at home while he was on the prowl, he relied on you to be a dedicated employee while he pursued sex and validation from other people.

The impression that I'm getting from you Neva is that you're a "fixer" and that you've assumed a parental role over your husband. I think that you have a lot that you will need to unpack with the guidance of an experienced therapist as you try to recover from this discovery and make sense of your relationship.

[This message edited by BluerThanBlue at 4:52 PM, Monday, May 19th]

Hi Neva, so sorry you're going through this. Sounds like a carbon copy of my ex's behaviour, minus the kids situation.

It took me 5 months from Dday to know that I could not see XWH as a safe partner again.

I was completely numb for the first six months. We had just bought and renovated what was supposed to be our forever home when I found out about the local sidepiece. While we were trolling the aisles at Home Depot buying tile and flooring and fixtures, he would be one aisle over on the phone with her, telling her everything.

She was quite something, and she made sure she told me everything he had shared with her after the fact, and called me a fool for not knowing. Part of his game was being utterly transparent about his behaviour with everyone except me. The STD was the final straw for me as I had a severe reaction to the antibiotics and thought I was going to die with the massive headache and vomiting episodes.

Who the fuck does that to someone they supposedly love? I'm just thankful I dodged HIV / hepatitis / herpes etc. He was oddly consistent about getting regular tests. He would be 'exhausted' when he came home from a trip and wouldn't touch me for a couple of weeks and I always gave him that space for recovery and didn't question. Waiting for clear test results is my guess. Stupid stupid me.

Yes, he had a shitty childhood. My mistake was I thought I could rescue him from all that and repair some of the damage with a fresh start in a good marriage. Boy was I wrong.

20 out of 22 years he was working on the road, hitting up the flight attendants, the hotel desk clerks, the waitresses, the strippers, the fangirls of the bands he was working with - news flash, the backstage pass is like catnip for these folks. He would start working it the minute he got onto the airport shuttle. Aside from the daily randoms (including hookers), he had a long term road wife in Australia, and several more at his various pit stops who would always welcome him with open arms. I looked up most of them by searching their email addresses - and most of them were hideously ugly trolls and I suspect one was just a minor when he was hitting her up, she still had the baby fat on her from the pics I found on her social media. I suspect he was doing her mom as well.

I'm now 17 (!) years out from the debacle, in my 70s and flying solo for all that time, and I have to say divorcing his ass was the best damn thing I ever did for myself. My only regret is I got bumped off the property ladder and am now a renter again. With the precarious mental state I was in for the first five years, I was in no shape to take on roommates or be a landlord so I had to sell the cursed house that they went through with sweetgrass and tobacco while I was away for a long weekend. Pardon my French but WHO THE FUCK DOES THAT!

Your job now is to just try to survive the shock and awe phase, and get the best advice you can from a really good divorce lawyer so you can ensure the best future for you and the kids. You can get the papers drawn up but you don't have to hammer down unless you decide that's your best option going forward. Just knowing what your options are re finances/assets is half the battle.

I realized very early on that I didn't want to live in detective mode for the rest of my days. I installed spyware on his laptop and was able to see everything he was doing while we were taking a run at reconciliation. It took about a month for him to lapse into his modus operandi at his next gig and that was it for me. The rest was just the revolting cesspool of a massive porn addiction that spiralled into some really nasty stuff I'll never get out of my brain. (After the divorce he decided to join the local polyamory community. I ran into him one day and before I could get away he was crying to me about screwing that up because of his addiction to lying. In hindsight it's kind of hilarious karma, but ick ick ick...).

With all the digital onlyfansashleymadisoninstagramfb etc things out there, the next random fuck is just a click away for these folks. There really is nothing you can do to work around that. It's too easy for them.

Apologies for the massive rant this has turned into, but just know my heart goes out to you as you navigate this clusterfuck. Shields up. You can do this. Change all your passwords and never share this site with him. It's your safe space and we're all here for you.

** Member to Member **

Reading this thread today has taught me why the frequency of betrayal isn't a big factor in the D/T decision for me. That is, looking for a life in which a WS simply doesn't cheat again seems to me to be a losing strategy.

*****

I thought I was getting a life of engagement with my partner when we married; if I hadn't thought that, I wouldn't have gone through with M. After being betrayed, I had a much stronger desire for high engagement with my WS. If I hadn't seen that in my future, I was gone.

I knew my W was damaged. I did not expect a smooth road to R, though I wanted one and though the child in my head certainly expected a smooth R. I knew there would be small betrayals, and I knew there might be a big one. Another A was, I thought, a deal killer, but we'll never know what i would have done, because I never had to deal with another A. We do know, however, that the smaller betrayals that come along with life were not deal killers. IOW, I appear to have boundaries ... but where those boundaries are may not be well-defined....

I also knew that the odds of a false R were unknown, unknowable. and irrelevant, since statistics do not apply to specific cases. I believe that's a principle that is taught when learning statistics and probability - if it isn't, it should be.

For example, actuarial tables tell us how many people of a certain group will die in the next 12 months - but the tables do not show who will die. We all know of survivors who live much longer than they are told they'll live (after, say, a cancer diagnosis), and we all know of people who die shortly after a complete physical exam that shows no problems.

IOW, past behavior may be the best predictor of future behavior, but it's not always a good predictor - and we have no idea who will continue to follow their old patterns and who won't.

IMO, cbs and cooley raise really good points. They focus on observable behaviors. Since the behaviors can be observed, changes can be observed. Focusing on behavior - actions - allow a BS to gather evidence as to whether a specific WS is or is not a good candidate for R.

And you can and must define for yourself what you want in your M. That will allow you to perceive how good a candidate your WS is.

*****

I don't think a person who avoids conflict can be a good candidate for R unless that person learns to embrace conflict.

I see conflict every day, although W & I, as retirees, spend more time together than most people do, so we may have to deal with more conflict than most people do.

In general, every choice means resolving a conflict between one option or another. Most of the time, the conflicts are easy to resolve. But if one person wants hot dogs for dinner. and the other wants ants-climbing-trees, there's a conflict that needs resolution.

Passivity may work pre-d-day. After d-day, though, IMO R is more likely to work of the day-to-day conflicts are recognized and resolutions are conscious and mindful. Each partner needs to know they chose the solution willingly. If they don't accept the solution, it's too likely they'll build resentment, and that is very detrimental to R.

*****

...whether or not your husband is capable of change is a separate issue from whether or not you will be able to successfully reconcile.

Excellent point.

The wisest thing said to me in the aftermath of d-day was, 'R requires 3 healings. You heal you. (W's name) heals herself. Together you heal the M.'

IOW, both BS and WS has to take responsibility for themself, and healing is separate from the D/R decision.

The BS has to process the anger, grief, fear, shame, whatever on their own. The WS can provide support, but the BS is the only person who can heal the BS.

The trouble is that it is never as easy as simply processing the pain of being betrayed out of one's body. The BS almost always has to figure out how to get through resistance to let the pain go. The 'resistance' refers to the dysfunctional defense mechanisms people pick up from the FOO, school, media, friends, etc., etc., etc.

The BS needs to figure out if the A(s) are/were deal killers and act accordingly.