SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

As a primer, forgive me for copy/pasting this from a post I originally made on Reddit - it’s a lot - which is where I was told about here. I thought about trying to condense or summarise it like I’ve been teased by others but I’m someone who thinks the context is important. Anyway…

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Fiancé (f34) told me (m33) she cheated 11 years ago - I’ve since found out a lot more.

‘2 days after’ update:
She went to work with the intention of finding us couples counselling through her job. I have access to something similar but the onus was on her to show her actions. By the time she had come home I had realised that she’d only recently broken contact with who she cheated with. Not necessarily that they were still sleeping together but that she’s only removed him from social media potentially the day before she told me. Worse still. I’ve found out she’s been lying more. She’s been having emotional relationships with numerous people in her sport community - flirty texting, sending pictures - not all the way sexual but enough that there’s clearly intent. I reached out to the girl I mentioned below who tried to warn me and I was gaslit off - she’s confirmed so much more on top. Even more so that my partner has been caught kissing others on nights out and her actions are the main reason why there was such a break in friendship years ago because they had had enough of it. No one ever told me because they assumed I knew or was ‘open’ about it.

I kicked her out of our apartment, I told her to pack and go. When I found out about the others I called her up in anger to get a response and she confirmed it. I challenged her on that she had previously sworn on her little brothers life that she hadn’t done anything else and her response was "I swore I never slept with anyone else". I don’t know this thing. This isn’t human.

‘1 Day after’ update:
I’ve made her take the ring off. I don’t know what I want to do about that right now but the person who I proposed too is not the person who’s in front of me. I reached out to her bestfriend to get a clearer picture and they’re claiming they can’t remember specifics, that their memory is bad and a whole lot of excuses. It’s a dead conversation. Ive seen the messages from another of her friends she’s reached out too who has been cheated on before and it’s clear that they’re not an ally of mine either. It’s all about how they love her and proud of her for owning up. I’ve signed up to survivinginfidelity.com to get more specific help. I’ve repeatedly demanded her to tell me if there was anything else and she’s said no but she also lacks any way to prove that to me. Her response has changed from "he charmed me" to "I was weak, cowardly and insecure." - I also demanded all the grimy details of what happened and while it was 3 times she went there, they had sex a lot more than that. She didn’t want to reach out to anyone more overtly because she didn’t want to feel like she was taking choice from me about who knows but that also ‘nicely’ lines up with her being ashamed to tell people so I’ve told her to reach out through work to get counciling. My best friend came to rescue me from a bar and told me to get couples therapy - regardless of the outcome because no matter which way this goes every man and his dog knows how much this is going to affect me. I’ve demanded she’s going to sleep on the sofa for the time being, it might change - I don’t know how I will feel about being in the bed. I know everyone here will think I’m crazy for not just cutting the cord and running but I can’t have that sort of blunt force trauma to my .. emotional? wellbeing right now. That might change in a few days I don’t know. We’re going to go to couples therapy but my mindset is entirely on looking after myself. She claims she’s willing to do any and everything to fix this but I don’t see how she could or if she has the strength too. Im so conditioned to think about what’s best for her or to help her that it’s making staying objective the hardest thing I’ve done. I’m trying to focus on me and me alone now and trying to accept the person I gave everything too was a lie.

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TLDR As title says, last night my fiancé dropped the bomb that 11 years ago she cheated on me with a guy from her work 3 times over a period of a month. (The full works). I don’t know how to recover, if this is fixable, how to feel. The whole show.

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The full story before the updates

I feel lost. I’ll try and put as much context below because I value objectivity.

Prior to this relationship, I was in a 4 year relationship where the other person cheated on me and gaslit me with the usual "your imagining things" spiel. It was when 15-18/9 years old. Bad but "kids are stupid and cruel". It’s important because it became something that would define the next few years. I avoided relationships like the plague and worked on myself. I didn’t let people get close because I expected them to hurt me. I had a few physical connections but was always clear with those involved what it was. It was never an issue on my side or theirs.

This girl then shows an interest in me, someone I knew from college, we hit it off and in quick succession she wants us to be official. I had already established my boundaries prior to this and told her no. "If that’s not good with you then it’s best we don’t go further because I don’t want to harm anyone and I don’t want the same." She accepted my stance and we continued , we’d have a good time with other but never claim we were exclusive- it went on for a year. Throughout this time I didn’t see anyone else because I didn’t seek relationships out. Being real I think I was still broken from what happened before that I didn’t think I could trust anyone truly. Meanwhile she did and I don’t hold this against her at all. I knew she was seeing other people and even now that doesn’t bother me at all. We weren’t exclusive, I had set the boundaries - I’d be a hypocrite to say anything else and I truly mean it when I say it’s not even on my radar but it’s important for context I suppose.

A year later a friend pulls me aside and goves me a shake of sense that "this girl is crazy about you and you keeping her at arms length like this is stupid. That while my previous fear was valid she’s shown up again and again and in our words "stop being a silly cunt and just ask her if she wants to be official already because she clearly wants to be" - so I did because I recognised maybe I was letting myself actually live and that’s exactly what we became, official. She even told me over the next couple of years how all those guys she saw in the year between us ‘open dating ‘ was just an attempt to make me jealous and I didn’t respond like she thought I would at all - like I said it wasn’t on my radar at all.

We go on to have a very normal relationship, or so I thought. We had bad days, good days - what I thought looking back was us growing together. Even now I can say I’m truly a better person for the time we’ve shared together. Through her I’ve been able to work through so much and become a much stronger person and likewise she’s become better.

Sometime about a year into our official relationship, one of her friends at the time started dropping a lot of suggestions - my partner at the time and her friend were arguing at that time so I didn’t put much stock in it. I trust her and she said her friend was being hysterical over something so I ignored it. All my previous "something is wrong here" senses were going off but I trust her and thats all that mattered to me.

Years go on and we have some pretty rocky times. I can look back now and see that we were growing into who we’d become as adults and missing each others wants and needs while demanding our own were met but we also always worked through it. There was a few times we probably should have ended it but for some reason either mine or hers we didn’t and in a month or two we were back stronger than before. It sort of fueled itself that "as long as we both put in the effort for each other we can get through anything".

In our friend groups - on the outside we had the relationship that everyone else envied. While we clearly had fights - we were unshakeable to anyone else

It only really got bad as you can guess - during Covid. She stopped recognising my efforts and I started feeling like I was being taken advantage of. It was always what I could do for her and never what I needed. We were also under each others feet in a way we’d never been before - we always spent a lot of time together before but as you can imagine it was now in overdrive. We stopped recharging each other and we ignored each others needs. What this resulted in was I started slipping into the start of a porn addiction to get a quick fix of feeling good and she became oppressive of all my attention in every way . If I was not meeting her standards I would be shamed and dragged how I was failing as a partner - we weren’t communicating and when we tried we were so fixed on what we needed we ignore what the other actually needed. The final result and so you know I’m being very real about my short comings is that I ended up on a hook up app as an anon, fake name, fake pictures, just so I could somehow score amateur porn that felt "real". I never reached out to anyone, it was as much as liking someone’s profile and see if they send you anything, that sort of website. It was so many kinds of weak and stupid and I won’t defend it for what situation I was in but she found out and for the better part of the next 6 months to a year it was our problem to fix. I was the problem to fix.

I was dragged for lying, hiding it and that I had an addiction. We went back and forth for so long that I think I can safely say it was our routine of "we can get through this" but I was constantly dragged over emotional glass because of what I did. It’s important to know how emotionally stripped down I thought we had both become during this time. We were ripping apart each others darkest stuff and seeing if the person underneath - the mistake filled thing we called a human was someone wanted to keep in our lives. It’ll sound like a tag on but she spent time talking to her best friend too at the time who apparently talked her into us still trying. This friend and this conversation is important later.

The important part is I did a ton of internal
work and we got better. I rebuilt myself better and earned her respect back. I can’t overstate the amount here but I realise this is a very long post already. What’s important is that I can safely say I don’t have an addiction, I’ve reestablished healthy boundaries and I know how to communicate my wants and needs in a way that’s both healthy and firm. We reknitted everything. Nothing was off bounds and I thought we had pieced each other back together from the very core of who we were.

4 years on from that, we’d never been better. I thought we’d seen each others ‘darkness’ and everything above. So much so I proposed. A joke among all our friends and family that "it was about time". I really don’t know a time
I’ve been happier. I thought we knew everything, we were truly unshakeable.

Then most of year passes, we looking at wedding planning, house buying.. the whole 9 yards. That we’ve not been able too up until now was money and since everything that happened during Covid I had been breaking myself in the workplace to provide for us because "she was worth it.She saw all of me and still wanted me. I have no reason to be scared of anything anymore." Even though we were both "pulling the boat" she was finally in a job she was happy with so I would do what I could to make more money so she could stay somewhere that she could be happy. - there’s a lot to unpack here so I might revisit this if someone thinks it’s important.

Okay so all of this happens and then she goes to see her friend for a catch up, the one who talked her into keeping trying with me.

Turns out her friend was cheated on by their partner and they used what my fiancé had done previously as an example in how they were talking about it. She -according to my fiancé saw this as a slap of "you’ve still not talked to him/me about it what you did" and she could see how much it affected her friend.

Fast forward to last night and I’m told - That 11 years ago, 9 months into our official relationship, she went back to a work colleagues house and had sex with him. That hysterical former friend ‘way back when’ was trying to tell me and I was gaslit into not believing them. That her best friend knew over 5 years ago and my fiancé swore her to secrecy because "she wanted to tell me herself" and then didn’t say anything until now (or the years before) because she was scared of losing me. I even only know it happened three times because I asked. If I hadn’t she was going to leave it as "it just happened." It’s clear to me though that shes only saying this because of how it affected her friend, nothing to do with me at all.

Her own words were that he ‘charmed her and she enjoyed feeling wanted when at that time was when we at our most ‘young love’, I thought we were head over heels for each other back then. I didn’t care about all those guys before because we weren’t exclusive but 9 months afterwards I clearly wasn’t enough.

I’m so lost I don’t know what to do or how to feel. I feel like everything is a lie in our relationship. All the communication, all the vulnerability, none of it feels real but I’m so different now. I gave this woman 12 years of my life and even when I was at my most messed up, my most broken raw fleshy thing her response/mindset was always about herself.

I’ve written a manifesto here so if you’ve got to the bottom, I don’t know what to say other than thank you. I know Reddit will probably just say leave her but I’m - i don’t know what I am anymore. I asked if this was salvageable in the post but I don’t know even know if that’s what I want. I just put a question because it said I I needed to put one.

I don’t know what I want. I’ve honestly never felt so alone.

Welcome to SI and I'm so sorry that you're here. First, there are some posts pinned to the top of the forum that we encourage new members to read, plus some unpinned posts with bull's eye icons. They have some really good information. Also, the Healing Library is at the top of the site and has a ton of resources. In the ICR (I Can Relate) forum, there's a thread for those who found out later and a betrayed mens thread.

If you can, IC (individual counseling) with a betrayal trauma specialist or trauma-informed specialist can be very helpful. At this point, CC (couples counseling) wouldn't be a recommendation I'd make for you. Your relationship didn't cheat, your partner did. Until you've done some healing and she's done some work, CC can be damaging. The feeling of not knowing what to do or how to feel? That's your body's reaction to the trauma.

If you have trouble with depression, sleeping, anxiety, see your doctor to see if meds might help. You won't have to be on them forever, but they can be helpful to get you through. Also, you may want to be tested for STDs/STIs because there are some pretty nasty diseases out there.

Also, R (reconciliation) is a lot of hard work and if both aren't in it 100%, then it is usually unsuccessful. Your partner has already said she didn't think she had it in her to do the work. In reading between the lines of your good times/bad times, I will bet she was love bombing you to get what she wanted and she could only do it for so long before repeating the cycle. In my opinion, serial cheaters rarely have the fortitude to do the work to become a safe partner. Not that it hasn't been done, but I've found it to be rare.

One thing I would like for you to do. Please read what you posted below, but pretend this is your best friend telling you about they have experienced. What advice would you give?

Others will be along and provide some advice. One saying we have around here is to take what you need and leave the rest. It's crowd-sourced wisdom, so you'll see differing advice. Use what works for your situation.

Welcome to SI.

First things first -

You are not alone. The good folks here are living proof that there is someone out there that has been where you are and will walk along with you while you navigate this.

Let me help you with something…you said you don’t know what you want. Let’s focus on what you KNOW you don’t want instead. Personally, I wouldn’t want a lot of the behaviors I just read about in your post from my romantic partner.

Think about that. Make a list. See if the decision is still as hard.

Hang in there. You’re going to be ok.

Some here may tell you reconciling is as simple as deciding to, but I could not disagree more. Your (STBX?) F has revealed her character and it’s categorically horrible. Not only has she *proven* herself unfaithful, she’s gaslit you for a decade. Under no circumstances should you marry this woman. As bad as this is, be grateful you have no kids and no intermingled finances etc. to unwind.

Please don’t learn the hard way. You’re going to be ok!

Sorry, mate, that is a tough read.

I’d encourage you to not let the sunk cost fallacy dominate your decision making. You aren’t married. She’s been unfaithful for basically the whole relationship, even knowing your history with it. She’s deceptively swearing on her brother’s life. Can you see yourself vowing yourself to this person for life? I know you have a decade of history that you’ll never get back, and that is brutal. But nothing you do now can change that. What you do now has to be about your present and your future.

Whatever you choose to do, move on or attempt to repair the relationship, you can get a lot of support and wisdom here. Wishing you the best.

Thank you all for your replies. The last few days have been the hardest I’ve ever had and I don’t doubt it’s going to get worse in different places.

Following advice and I suppose providing an update I’ve talked a lot with my best friend, the one who rescued me from the bar. It’s been more talk of just how unbelievable it all is rather than anything actionable but it’s helped.

I confided in my mum and dad separately. They’re divorced and have very different approaches on this. At first I was worried that sharing with them might affect any chance at R down the line but I’ve got to stop thinking about any of that and focus on me and what I need to help me get through this. Forgive me for not remembering usernames but someone made a point about would I want to marry someone who would twist an oath on their little brother like that. It does speak volumes and while I know I can say the words "well there’s my answers" I know getting through it is an entirely different scenario.

Anyway, family.

My mum took a more sympathetic approach though similar to my best friends in that it’s more "I can’t believe it" and trying to reaffirm me which I suppose is all anyone CAN do. my dad however was - well he was more ‘even handed’. He got the full story and still was looking for the "you never know; don’t make drastic decisions etc". It’s not that he’s condoning what she did or anything I’ve just learnt through this that he has a surprisingly more accepting view of infidelity when you consider the bigger picture. I can’t lie it hurt to hear him talk about it like he did but I guess I shared with him more so I was putting up a flag that I wasn’t okay. He’s also been offering nearly none stop to do things since. Go for a drink, go watch a film. Trying to help me feel normal- though I think that’s partly based on what I’ve told them both below. (I realise im all over the place writing this. Sorry)

I’ve also booked myself into the STI clinic for Friday. If anything else it’s for peace of mind and I had a doctors appointment today for me dealing with all of this - the appointment more so came out of desperation after last night. I couldnt sleep and I found myself stuck in cycles of suicide ideation. It’s something that my mum struggled a lot with when I was growing up (I can’t remember if I explain how I was parentised in my original post but honestly I’ll be writing war and peace if I went into everything.) - the point is , last night was hell to be in my head.

I work in a corporate personal safety risk management field and knowing tells, pressure points, roots of attack.. it’s hard to explain but planning how I would do it came naturally to me in a way that probably shouldn’t surprise me. I’ve dealt with this sort of thing all growing up, I’ve ended up in a career where Im the think tank behind stopping people doing things to others or them doing it to themselves. I’ll avoid more triggering details but the only things that really made me tap my brakes were "where could I that I wouldn’t be found by someone I know." - and not just family or friends but - because of my job - I know a lot of the first responder crews for my entire region, the idea of one them pulling me out of a river or something is something I wouldn’t wish on them.

I realise how messed up that all is. I basically white knuckled my way through the night and got on the phone as soon as my local doctors opened up to make an appointment.

Sorry I realise I’ve really buried the story with that part.

The fact is, I don’t know if I’m going to have more nights like that. I probably will but I’m taking all the steps to manage it. I was 100% transparent with the doc and he made it clear that meds would only risk accelerating what I’m feeling. Not that I was pushing for anything - I literally sat down and said I need help and I have no idea what that looks like before I told him everything.

I’ve been signed off work for a week and we’re going to talk more on Wednesday. Usually
Burying yourself in work is an ideal response to this sort of thing I know but with my work it’s quite the opposite. I’ve been shared crisis lines if it gets like it did (which I felt dumb for not thinking about as I share the same damn thing with others) and I’ve been sign posted to a lot of well being and counselling groups that can focus on my needs. I’ve already reached out to two of them, a gov based one and a 3rd party one.

I know I’m going to have a rough time going forward. I still don’t really know what I’m going to do. It’s such a cliche but I’m really taking it day by day.

As for her though. There’s been nothing since I tried to call in a rage last night when I wanted her to confirm names I already knew had been confirmed by others. She kept screening my calls and after we eventually had a minute or so of me explosively bleeding over the phone she sent a message afterwards written in the way she would to a service user at work.

I can’t remember if I even explained this before but what is the absolute cracker of this is that she is a sort of councillor for the Army. Working with squaddies and the like on exactly these sort of issues. It’s why she’s so weaponised in all of the therapeutic talk.

— but back on task. I got a message that said I’m not acting like she knows me to be. That she was worried what I was going to do to myself (I had made no sort of notion to her at the time so looking back it’s hard not to feel like I let her plant something sick in my head. Madness I know.) and that ultimately "go talk to someone". And that’s been it since.

Throughout the day which clearly has been a rollercoaster with the doctors and family, I’ve found myself imagining her reaching out to all the people she’s done things with to find comfort again and my head starts all over again. I know "that way is pain" and yet I find myself still doing it.

It’s so backwards. I want closure but it can’t be rushed. I know this relationship is doomed in everyway to a rational head and yet I don’t understand why she isn’t throwing everything at me to save us regardless of what my stance is. Even with me kicking her out and telling her to go to her mums I don’t get why she hasn’t set up up on our apartment hall way in a sort of twisted fight club way that she’ll stay there for as long as is necessary before I’ll let her in.

I want her to fight for me. To prove everything she’s been claiming but at the same time I know everything is dead and now I need to completely regrow as a person.

God I’m clearly spiralling. I meant this to be a brief update. Again thank you for your support everyone. And if you’ve read all this double thank you for sticking it out to see the mess everything has become.

I’m going to eat and try and distract myself.

Important summary in case anyone is worried.
- i know to use the crisis line if I get bad again.
- I’m half expecting my friend to badger me with calls tomorrow to make sure I pick up and talk so I don’t end up somewhere bad mentally/physically.
- I’m off work for a little while. I imagine it’ll be longer but we’ll see. If I feel up to it I might go to the gym tomorrow.
- I’ve shared with immediate family.
- I’ve heard nothing from her since. But the lift to our apartment floor level is starting to feel like when you hear that sort of parent walk up the stairs. I think I’m just waiting for the silence bubble to pop.

I just want you to know that you are heard, that we understand the anguish. It takes time, but it does get better, I promise.

I'm glad you're reaching out for help. We get the anguish and the feeling of wanting the wayward to fight for the relationship. It is emotionally exhausting. You take care of you and practice self-care.

Some people get PTSD or C-PTSD, so be watchful for some of the symptoms. Betrayal trauma is awful. There's no pain like it.

Process through the feelings so you can get through them.

As IH says, it does get better. It takes time and healing.

I’ve been getting soothing advice through friends and family but is it wrong that I want someone to be a war fighter in this with me? In the first few initial days I was in so much shock I couldn’t even feel my anger and as time goes by and like I’ve said before - her total lack of fight for us regardless of how complex that is - Im getting angrier and angrier. Or maybe it’s better to say I’m feeling my anger, my internal protector going into overdrive. Full salt the earth/carthage mentality.

I know acting on my anger will not help me and while I’ve played around with hypotheticals with friends (like destroying her skates - all of the cheating she has done is through her roller derby community - or burning her clothes as cliche as it sounds, all of which would probably lead me to getting a police record and then I would lose my job so obviously I’m not going too but fuck do I want too) - no one is banging the war drum on my side.

I suppose I could say that’s because they can see the pain I’m in and don’t want to make it worse or that they’re not sure if I’d consider R with her and them doing it would again make it worse.. but there’s no one who’s going nuclear for me.

I almost want my own Beth from the Yellowstone series to come in and salt the earth because me doing it would only embeds the trauma more.

I want justice. I want to show up to all of her events and end them all. I want the sports hall they are hosted by to kick them out because of the constant problems and issues. I want her name destroyed throughout her community to show what she is. I want to take a bat to the people she had me break bread with. I want to open every secret conversation we’ve had about people in 12 years and burn every connection she’s ever had. I want to trample on the relationship she has with her little brother so he can see what sort of person she is and that there was a reason that all these years he found more peace hanging out with me than either his adopted mother and this woman. That they aren’t safe because even before ALL OF THIS it’s been the longest conversation with my WP that her mother should have never adopted. She needs therapy among so much more and she’s fucked up her first two kids and she’s doing even more damage with this one and that my WP has enabled and made it worse for years until (as someone who had to save their own mother from suicide ideation on a near weekly basis from the age of 8) I could talk with an experience she (WP) couldn’t ignore and suddenly "he’s doing much better you’re here".

I even know I’m projecting so hard because of all the pain I went through, they’ve been doing something similar to this kid and with feeling what I’ve been put through for the last 12 years - god I’m rambling so much now. I’ll stop.

I’m just so angry. I want justice.

Justice?

Forget about it.

Supposed you could somehow force her to see you having sex with another woman. It would not hurt her like you are hurting. Might not hurt her at all. She might get off on it. The simple fact is, she doesn’t care about you as much as you care about her.

What’s going to happen in the future? Who knows.

Maybe you’ll get back with her. Marry her. Everybody on planet Earth will tell you not to do that, but maybe you will anyway.

Maybe she’ll go off and marry some rich, good-looking guy, have a couple of kids and have a charmed life.

Maybe she’ll have three more failed relationships and wind up an addict sleeping in a doorway.

Who knows.

But the horror you’re wishing on her makes me wonder if you care about her as much as you think you do.

The pain will fade.

Whatever you do, do not marry this woman.

Take care of yourself.

Think of this as a character problem. All of us have little character quirks but hers are off the charts. I hate to write this but she sounds very shallow and superficial. Those people can be charming but there is no substance to them. You have been the frog in the boiling water. If you look back you can probably see small red flags all along.

There are lies of commission and those of omission. You seem to have gotten a boatload of both.

I think the important question you need to ask yourself is, will you ever be able to trust her again.

I worked with a woman once who had no ability to love. Her early childhood experiences never gave her the opportunity to feel that basic emotion. She was such a nice, well behaved, person but she wandered through one relationship after another leaving children behind. She was quietly ready to move on from her 4th husband and child. So she did. I bring this up because, from your writing, you have the capacity to form deep attachments and I don’t get that idea about her. That just might be her character, her personality. Something to think about.

[This message edited by Cooley2here at 1:31 AM, Sunday, March 23rd]

Thanks for the replies, reading back my last message I can see how much my anger was spiralling and formerpeopleperson is absolutely
right to challenge me on if I love this person or not with what I’m wishing on them. The sad fact of my whole situation is I do but I’ve split the person who I thought I was with from the person who told me into two separate entities.

The person in my head isn’t real - or at least they were half truths the entire time and so connecting with my anger feels justified and well I won’t say easy but I’m finding it easier to go into horrific places as clearly I’ve already shown.

Where as the person I thought I was going to marry is someone I would be the shield against anything and all that came their way. I grew up being forced to be the shield and protector for family that should have done so for me so it put myself in that position willingly for another was one of my ways is showing my love and devotion. That it wasn’t a hellish place to be in because I was doing it for someone who deserved my love and I wanted to be worthy of theirs. The sudden disconnect that I’ve been tricked all these years is where this projection of anger is coming from and while if it was your intent or not formerpeopleperson, your words have made it easier for me to start dropping my focus on .. well let’s call it what it is, revenge on her in my head and keep my energy for myself. What can I do for me.

As for cooley2here, I think you’ve caught something that others have half mentioned to me throughout this whole ordeal that simply - maybe she isn’t forming deep attachments and that’s the source of why the latest shiny thing takes her attention away. It’s not an acceptable excuse of course but it fits in with so much over the years and how much I was required to bend and brake to constantly prove myself and make her feel committed too when the fact was - she wasn’t committed to me.

It’s a lot for me to think about. Thank you.

Sorry you found yourself in this mess.

Please get IC, Individual Counseling. If he first one you try isn't a good fit try another. It really helped me, I was on the roller coaster, anger, sadness, depressed, back to anger again. My IC helped me deal with it. I got some simple suggestions on how to handle all the thoughts, mind movies. I had to deal with them, I couldn't sleep, couldn't eat, crying, anger, IC helped. It gradually got better.

Even with me kicking her out and telling her to go to her mums I don’t get why she hasn’t set up up on our apartment hall way in a sort of twisted fight club way that she’ll stay there for as long as is necessary before I’ll let her in.

I want her to fight for me. To prove everything she’s been claiming but at the same time I know everything is dead and now I need to completely regrow as a person.

I really don't want to defend her actions and deceptiveness. Quite frankly, I'm not sure she's redeemable with her boundaries where they are at. She only confessed because she knew you were going to find out anyway.

In this though she's damned if she does and damned if she doesn't. Does she respect you desire of space, you did kick her out and tell her to go away, or does she disregard what you have asked and fight tooth and nail to stay present in your life. If you want her to fight for the relationship, you need to express that to her. She knows she f'd up. She certainly doesn't know how to fix it. I'd guess she has your dads view on infidelity. Most people who haven't been on the receiving end of that betrayal don't understand the pain and damage that is inflicted. I wouldn't want you to guide her directly though. That just leads to performative acts. What, if anything, has she suggested?

Thanks trustedg, I had started the process of getting IC or at least some form of it. I’m connected to one service where it’s an instant chat between between myself and trained practitioners but I know I need to find something more in depth if I’m really going to look after myself.

As for your response grubs. You’re absolutely right. The whole fight for me side has only really raised its head late last night and today I suppose. I guess it’s because it’s what I would have done in her position - well I wouldn’t have done everything she’s done from the get go but the point is - I would have set up in the hallway or something. Or even in the car. Enough that I’m out of the way but I’m -right there-.

Does it make any sense? None what so ever. I don’t even think this is fixable so why would I want that? I don’t know.

Her giving me space and time is what I’ve had confirmed through a source (I darent call these people friends now knowing so many have kept her secrets too) but even that is just an easy way to swing it.

Bottomline you’re 100% spot on with damned if you do and damned if you don’t and I have no real answer to it.

Every time I level myself out and get to a point of "well what now then" - I spiral all over again.

The idea that she’s scared I’ll reject her if she tries to make contact- highly likely but at the same time I can’t believe she isn’t desperately throwing everything at the wall to make contact and I don’t think I would want that anyway. I’m so confused I can’t find a path.

As for what she’s suggested on her side. Up until the NC she initially wanted me to green light everything. She’d show me messages and say "is this okay" (the main example I have is that I’ve ran a very successful DnD group for over 6 years. Weekly 6-7 hour sessions. I told her she’s going to have to cancel it and explain to the group why. She wrote an ambiguous message saying it was personal issues and only jumped in to state that she’s the reason not me after the group starting pouring affection on her.)

I had to make it clear on a few points that I’m not going to green light everything she wants to show me because then I’m not really seeing her - I’m just seeing my own choices and actions and her carrying them out. Even now I still don’t think she gets what I mean. Before I found out about the additional lying I was looking for her to prove who she was. That the person in my head was the same as the person in front of me and that it wasnt two separate things and that requires she takes the risk on being wrong but most importantly that she puts in the effort. That she tries. Being wrong is forgivable when you know you have to choose, it shows effort and commitment regardless of the outcome. not trying? Apathy? Deer in headlights? It’s unacceptable.

Even saying "but that’s hard to do" - I can spit back and why am I not worth it? 11 years of lies- how hard do I have it now? How much pain am I inflicted with that doing something hard on her end is now acceptable?

Christ I’m ranting again. Sorry. Back on task.

Outside of this there was Couples Counselling I don’t recall if I brought it up first or she did. I’m pretty sure it was me but it wouldn’t surprise me if shock has warped that in my head. However I made it clear that she would have to go and find us some options. - do the work - and we’ll go from there. She showed timestamps from her work that proved she’s put in for it and was waiting to hear back. Again this was all before I found out about the additional lying.

Outside of that there’s been nothing except the cliche phrases of "showing up for you every day" and "putting the work in" but what any of that means to her is anyone’s guess. I even asked at the time for her to be specific, to clarify what that looks like because it’s all the buzzwords she uses with work and she didn’t really have anything to add. It kept coming back to what I want and I have no idea anymore.

I have no idea how she could fix this. I don’t even know if it’s possible or what it could look like.

I spent time thinking today about actions she could take and all of them just feel like they’d lead to more pain. Like for example - except for the first event of her cheating that she’s told me about - all of it has happened and worsened through her roller derby community. So what do I ask for then? Quit. It doesn’t change the fact that she’s been reaching out to people on social media, going to events and the most important part here is then I become the reason why she doesn’t play - how long before she resents me? Likewise how could I not resent her for sticking with it considering everything she’s done and what that community is like?

She kept trying to get me to join so we could do it together and whilst I did try in the past it ended horribly because of other issues in that community that I wasn’t going to accept. I pulled away, left her to keep going on if she wanted too - I wasn’t going to be the reason she quit - I was just a bad fit. No harm no foul. But what about now? Do I join to be some sort of fucking watchdog on her all the time? She gets what she wants and I’m the one that has to change? It’s not fair and like I’ve said before it’s not a good fit. It just leads me to resenting.

Do I use some sort of app to see all her messages in and out from here on out? How could I trust that she’s not just simply doing everything in person?

The point is - and hopefully you can see from the above - I have no idea what I want now, I’m contradictory in my focus but I’m still ‘putting the work in’ and she’s offered almost nothing. "But would you accept anything if she did?" Right now I have no idea.

I keep getting myself stable and trying to enjoy just 5 minutes without it raging through my head and when I finally get there. I go between "don’t contact me and ruin this" to "I can’t believe you haven’t said anything. I clearly mean nothing."

I feel like I’ve had so much taken from me that I don’t want to give any ground at all. Any idea of "be fair" goes out of my head because I wasn’t treated with any.

So grubs. You’re right// damned if you do damned if you don’t. And I have no answer for how I move forward.

I think I get what you are on about, and suspect a whole load of other betrayed also do.

Well, you are not wrong there. It is unfair. The BS were walking along without a care in the world, then the WS sucker punches them, and the shock and humiliation come in first. Shock from the suddenness of the attack, humiliation from not being prepared.

Anger comes next, because the BS realises that they should not be expecting an attack from someone on their 'side'.

Then the WS takes the 'easy' route and asks the BS what the BS needs, so the WS does not have to suffer the agony of trying to figure out what the BS needs instead. To make a supreme effort to try and mend the relationship, even if the efforts are rejected by the BS (highly probable that the WS fears rejection). The WS continues to live their lives, whilst waiting for the BS to 'command' them on what to do, and they will do the easy thing and follow.

You are also not wrong in expecting the WS to do the 'work' of healing the relationship. To make the BS feel 'safe' again in the relationship. By being reactive and not proactive, you are probably feeling betrayed even more, as if your WS does not care enough for the relationship to rolls their sleeves up and do really hard work.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

After all I wrote above, perhaps you should be looking at things a bit differently.

Forget what your WS is or is not doing. Forget that she is not putting in enough effort to heal things.

Look at yourself. Look within. Breathe deep breaths and calm your mind.

Realise that you cannot control what your WS does, and that you are the Prize. If she is not willing to put in the effort to win the Prize, then too bad for her. Her loss.

You will come to a point where you will realise that you do not 'need' any validation from your WS, as validation comes from within.

You are currently injured, but not paralysed. You can still walk. You focus on yourself to walk, even though you are hobbling at the moment. You will get better I promise, and once you can walk again, you will be able to gain speed and momentum to break out of your WSs gravitational pull.

Get out there and give 'em hell.

RR

So good news and bad. The situation has escalated.

I’ve been sharing my story with my friends in a way to combat any sense of humiliation or shame around what’s happened. I’ve tried to be unbiased in what I say about the events and have even gone to lengths to say "if I boil it down to specifics of what I know its X and Y - ignoring any other potential implications". From there most have made their own mind up. That and I’ve shared the messages of how the WP has been talking which are frankly robotic and lacking in any empathy.

Anyway - a side effect of me sharing my story has led to my friends taking shifts watching me because they’re concerned I might do something to hurt myself. I won’t - or at least I won’t now. It was a bad night but I went to get help the next day - you know the drill.

I went to get tested today for peace of mind. Some friends ambushed me because they wanted to make sure I was okay. It was nice really. During this meet, the WP messages and it reads as I’ve already described. She talks about finding a neural ground to talk and that she needs to get some more things.

I have no idea what to say and sit on it for the rest of the day. Frankly I’m the hurt party here, I set the boundaries and timelines. This was around 10:30AM. I don’t response until nearly 10:30 PM. Basically saying 11 tomorrow. I made it clear that two friends would be here and I have no idea if I want to talk but you can get somethings.

"Can we do another day" - shocked me and the friends I was with. Here’s a chance to connect and she’s not wanting it. We all had a "what could be more important right now?" And then it dawns on me. She has a derby event she wants to go to at the exact same time/day. I tell her no. This is the time and a date (largely because my friends couldn’t make another day and I wanted the support) she doesn’t budge and thinks I’m playing some sort of game. And then I threw the realisation of it being a derby event back at her. "It’s because you want to go to X isn’t it?" And then it drops that’s exactly the reason.

She writes message after message of what she’s going through and how she needs this for her and I won’t lie all I can think of is "Derby is more important than us. This is your moment to show up and you’re not doing it"

She thinks I’m playing some sort of power play game and honestly all her messages read like a bad counselling service because she’s again trying to treat me like one of her service users at work.

I snapped. I told her how close I was to suicide. How this isn’t a game and she needs to stop saying she understands because she has no idea. I outline exactly what happened. That I filled my backpack with weights, I strapped myself in such a way that it would take great effort and time to get it off and I made out to a local river I know has an area that’s not well patrolled. The most stupid thing that stopped me is that I didn’t want my friend who works in the boat crews to find me. I didn’t think of my family or friends but that I didn’t want to cause pain for someone I knew to find my corpse. So I came home. (Triaged into doctors first thing the next day. The rest is history. I’m prepared that I won’t get like that again.)

I never wanted to share how far it got because I knew I couldn’t trust her but at the same time I couldn’t stand the gaslighting, the minimising anymore.

Her response her to brush over so quickly and focus on herself. I was numb.

The only thing that she took from it was that my friends are trading a sort of watch of me to make sure I’m okay. So she sees it as the opportunity to come now to get her things.

I asked my friends if they were okay supporting me. They’re in and I said fuck it let’s do it now.

Another 20mins or so go on while we wait for responses (I’ll note she’s refused to pick up the phone the entire time claiming she’s overwhelmed. Which at this stage I realise is jsut another tactic of hers to avoid dealing with any form of contact.) she eventually says she’s coming over and her mums driving.

I understand why but her mum should have stayed downstairs. This is the most bulldog of a woman you’ll ever know. Horrifically backward, abusive but can do know wrong - even the WP has known for years how messed up this woman is but where we are. "It’s her mum at the end of the day".

They come up and I stay on the sofa out of the way and sight. My friends facilitate the whole thing up until I heard a clicking sound. All I could think is that all she wants is her derby kit. That’s all this is about. I go to look for the hallway and it’s not that but something else I can’t see. Regardless I stay away. I took the moment to try to read her mum. Is there any kind of response here, is she in full protector mode herself, is she even ashamed of what her daughter’s done? And then I did the most stupid thing - I don’t know where it came from.

I said "you said raised that" and it set her off. Understandably looking back. (This is less than an hour old by the way.) her mum went on a tirade of that she’s proud of her and I couldn’t believe it. I mean stupid me what else is her MUM going to say in this situation let alone this horrible woman. (I know there’s a whole thing about mothers in law but this one takes the biscuit) I ended up walking away trying to I don’t know - deescalate myself but I’d aet off the volcano and she’s was throwing everything out. She went into the porn stuff which honestly was laughable even to my friends because I haven’t hid anything. No one was shocked - hats off to one of them because they cut it off saying "we’re not here for any of that. Keep to your task." But there was something I can’t remember what it was that she said I was trying to intimidate her by staring at her and stupid ape brain kicked in. I stood up. Squared my shoulders, stepped into the doorway of the hallway and said I’ll do what I like in my own home - or something to that effect. So her mum who thinks a 60 something year old with numerous joint issues can do the same to me to get a response just came off as stupid. I should have laughed but I didn’t. I played exactly the kind of game they wanted. Her mum went into full goad mode to get me to attack because they know any police record and my job goes. So I wave them off and disengage. Both her and WP focus on how I trying to be intimidating and the angry call I made the previous couple of days before when I said stupidly that I could get through their front door (something I instantly followed up with that I’d never do.) I was stupid and angry that’s all.

From there I go sit down and leave my friends to handle it. My WP tries to manage them and tell her story and they frankly being too nice don’t cut her off fast enough. They were just trying to get this whole thing done.

She tries to make a final sort of speech? A plea to me but not about me but about her position, what she’s been going through and really everything everyone has warned me about that she’s not once actually considered me.

I’ve stayed mostly quiet by this stage and I leave it with a final. "You always had a choice." I hear get bleat as she leaves that she want ever given a choice.

After this I sit and talk with my friends. They’ve seen first hand how crocodile tears she is. How she’s trying to orchestrate the situation even now. That even during they were here both her mum and WP were throwing out that they’re only having to jump on any of this because I "threatened to commit suicide" not how close I actually was. Everything was just attack after attack. I admitted to them I should have stayed on the sofa and stayed out of it. All I’ve done is given them more ammo to do whatever they want later. Both of them told me that I didn’t do anything wrong and that considering the state of everything, I handled myself well. I guess I can only take their view on it.

What this has taught me though is I’m not safe in my apartment anymore. Who knows when her and the mother will next roll in and want round 2. It’s also made me realise that R here is an impossibility. Even at my most vulnerable - WP could only think about what she was going through.

My issue now is getting out. As fast as possible. I need to rebuild my life and with her it’s clear she’s not interested in actually giving me what I deserve.

It’s late so I’m going to sleep like shit. But I’ve already sent a message to my dad. I’m hoping I can go back to live with him for a short while- while I sort my life out. Then it’s a case of checking my tenancy agreement (which currently I can’t find anywhere so I’m going to have to contact the estate agents when they open on Monday) to see what my notice period is and then it’s all the banking and bills stuff.

I don’t think I even want any of this furniture. She can have it. I’ve wasted 12 years of my life with this person. I won’t waste anymore.

For full transparency. I started my operation EVAC with the idea of doing it entirely by stealth. Get everything sorted and leave an empty home (empty of my stuff anyway) without saying a word. But that’s just not me. I’m not a sneak in the night. I’m a stand on the front line and say "come on then!" Type.

So ar 3:40ish in the morning, about an hour and a half after they’ve left? I sent this.

"I regret what I said to you mum. You should know me well enough that I’d never be violent with any of you. It’s not me and never will be.

I’m not going to bar you from getting what you need or if you want to come home but I don’t think it’s wise. I would appreciate you let me know when though so I’m not surprised. While I know I have a right to feel secure - with what’s happened I no longer feel like that’s a possibility in this situation. Your mum will make assumptions of me as she has and I already feel like the lift sound has become a source of anxiety long before what happened. I’ve been immobilised every time it goes longer than floor 2 because I have expected you to show up.

It’s also clear I’m not your priority even with everything you’ve done and while I’ve been told going full radio silence might be the correct option, one I even previously agreed with. - I hope you see whatever olive branch this is that I’m going to start the process of boxing my things - like with what I asked above, I don’t want you to be left surprised either. I’ve been through enough and I don’t want any more pain and nor do I want to cause any.

I need commitment and trust and it’s clear that’s not something you can give me.

I have no interest in fighting or arguing over who owns what and besides the specific appliances given to me, my desk, my small side tables, the clothing rails I was given and a few other things you can have the rest.

When you’re available we should go over it just avoid any confusion. Ideally just us but I can understand if you want someone else there.

I can’t find the tenancy agreement but I will contact them on Monday for a copy so I can find out the notice period. I think it’s month.

It’s also important we go through finances so we’re not putting each other into further stress.

I need the pain to stop."

I will act with the integrity and dignity that I deserve.

So ar 3:40ish in the morning, about an hour and a half after they’ve left? I sent this.

I can only pray you’re committed to deep & long term therapy.

Was going to advise you stop communicating with this woman and her mum, but you’re going to do it your way. I wish you the best.

I absolutely am and you’re right to point out the mania that I fired that response. It was nuts but to me it was a way to take power back. Redefine my boundaries etc. as a side note it did have a very positive effect but I see your point, it’s not something I intend to repeat.

I’m going to have to have contact with the WP to deal with the financial side regardless but I’m not going to facilitate anything else. I think the WP also realises how much her mother accelerated the entire situation. She’s done it her entire life (I could write an essay here frankly. If I recognise how much therapy and IC I need - this woman would make someone career if she ever considered it properly)

But like I said, positive effect - I got a response earlier and I’ve talked with WP, first over message, then a short phone call and then we met up at the park to talk face to face, it was mostly to set last night to rights and for some sort of real communication to happen. The sad fact is that when it’s just us we almost fall back into who we were before this all was brought out. She wants me to take more time before I make any snap decisions because she still wants to try for R but I just don’t see how that’s possible. All the advice I’ve had here, from friends, from
Professionals.. it’s all so stark and I can’t see how I could ever go back without many aspects of our lives becoming points of resentment for each other.

I made it clear I’m still planning to move out and if there’s a change of heart or something happens then we address that when it happens. It’d be cruel to either of us to prolong this. The faster we move on to rebuilding ourselves independently the better.